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Watson577
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Posts: 132
Loc: Fredericksburg, Virginia USA
Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle
      #282452 - 16/05/16 04:39 AM

Hello all,

I recently acquired this rifle and I thought that I should upload some photos of it for the archive. This rather unusual double rifle was built in 1888 for Prince Louis Esterhazy (1844-1912), Military Attaché at the Austrian Embassy in London from 1885 to 1902. Prince Esterhazy was an avid big game hunter. He was in India from 1886-87 and again from 1890-91 and he went to Africa in 1895. So far, I haven’t been able to uncover any details about this trip to Africa—only a single mention of him having left for Vienna on his way to Egypt. This tidbit of information came from the January 21, 1895 issue of the London Evening Standard newspaper. A large collection of his belongings exists at Forchtenstein Castle in Austria and I expect that in the future I’ll be able to uncover more information about his life and adventures. Here are some details about this rifle:

- Weight of Rifle: 13 lbs. 10.7 oz.
- Weight of barrels alone: 7 lbs. 14.1 oz.
- Width of action at breech to barrel interface: 2.365"
- Length of Barrels: 26-1/8"
- Rifling twist rate: 1:27"
- Bore diameters at muzzle: 0.687"
- Groove diameters at muzzles: 0.703"
- Groove diameters at the breech: 0.711"
- Type of cartridge: 3-1/2” drawn brass case, grease groove bullet?
- Diameter of chambers at forward ends: 0.730"
- Diameters of chambers just forward of rim cuts: 0.760" (this is the size of a 14-bore brass case)
- Rim cuts: standard 16-bore
- Sights: 50 yard standing, 100 yard folding
-
I found the following account of hunting tigers very interesting and I thought that many of you would enjoy reading it. The article appeared in the Barton County Democrat newspaper of June 16, 1887 (Great Bend, Kansas—he went to America after leaving India in 1887):

Prince Esterhazy's Dangerous Adventure in Eastern Jungles
"Tiger hunting in India is best carried on by baiting with cattle, so I took a drove of forty head with me," said Prince Louis Esterhazy, of Austria. "A band of some thirty of the natives were started three weeks in advance to seek out the best hunting grounds and whenever a good spot was found one of the shikarees dropped out with a certain number of cattle to await my coming. In this way I was enabled to hunt in the wildest sections. The cattle were tied one by one to trees in the jungle in the margin of a circle sometimes as much as five miles across. They were placed there at night. The tigers came forth at night to seek their prey, and, finding the cattle, leaped upon, killed, and devoured as much as they cared to and went their way. Much of this country is low and wet, and the tigers could easily be tracked in the soft soil, especially by the expert native Indians. Following the tracks each successive morning after baiting we would come upon and shoot them. In this way in eleven months, with but a single gun, I myself killed nineteen tigers. This is the best record made in India in eighteen years. I had a very big rifle, what is known as an eight-bore gun, carrying twelve drachms powder. With this an expert is able to bring down even the largest tiger easily, and sometimes by a single shot. But the sportsman must be as quick as lightning, for no sooner does one of these wild tigers see you, even though he may be surfeited with food, than he will leap for you with all the quickness imaginable, and if you do not make sure work of it you are gone. The first two or three times, when undergoing these experiences, it made me somewhat nervous, for fear I would not make a center shot, but in time I got more confidence. I speak now of hunting tigers on foot, as I was doing. This is the most dangerous way, but it is more fascinating. I several times went off into the jungle entirely alone, and hunting in this way I had a number of very narrow escapes. On one occasion I was tracking a tiger and was raising my gun to shoot, having come upon it suddenly, when I was startled by the deep growl and rapid tread of another coming upon me. I was so hard pressed that, after shooting one I had to flee for my life, and only just escaped by climbing a tree. In the eleven months I many times slept out alone in a dismal jungle with only my blanket to keep off the rain. I suppose I underwent many such an experience, so far as exposure is concerned, as your American trapper and miner did in earlier and more dangerous days. Another way to hunt tigers is to do the shooting from elephants or camels. When this is done a smaller rifle is generally used. I hunted principally as much as two or three hundred miles away from the farthest outpost. I had a regular caravan of elephants, shikarees, tents and various equipage, but wandering away by myself I was forced to camp and rough it and endure hard ships which I hardly anticipated. This was the case when, for quite a long period, all my servants got sick with fever. I shot more and bigger tigers during the rainy months. In ten days in July I shot five tigers and a panther. A tiger always comes from a hill and goes back to a hill. He will not stay long on low ground. Usually three or four at least of a hunting party are killed before the season is over. You will understand, therefore, what good fortune we had in escaping loss of life.”






























Edited by CptCurl (10/01/17 11:22 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282454 - 16/05/16 05:28 AM

Beautiful and in such GREAT condition.

Yowser 9 drams is about 245gr. powder.

It's a 13 bore groove to groove - tapered groove depth opf .008" amazing, but standard since the English .58 Enfield Rifles of 1853 onward. Other counties copied this for their military hollow based bullet'd rifles as well, including the US.
27" twist - what weight bullet do you suppose?

What a GREAT RIFLE - well done!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #282459 - 16/05/16 06:57 AM

Daryl,

I don't know if the bores taper rapidly in the first 3 inches or so like my Alexander Henry rifles or if they are fairly linear. The twist rate really surprised me when I measured it. If you go by the Greenhill formula, it will stabilize a bullet that's over 2" long! The actual bullet couldn't have been that long, I'm fairly sure. I have no idea what bullet this rifle was designed to shoot but hopefully the Holland & Holland records will shed some light on this. The other thing that was a big surprise was the chambers. I had expected that they made this rifle to use longer than normal thin brass two-piece cases like Kynoch and Eley made but I'm certain that those cases would have ruptured in this rifle due to the larger diameters in front of the rims. This is why I'm fairly certain that drawn brass cases were used and I'll bet that these were needed because of the higher than normal operating pressure that was caused by a heavy bullet and 9-drams of powder. Depending on the bullet that was used, the "Bone Crusher" on the case might refer to the shooter's shoulder! Another thing that surprised me is how compact this rifle is. It's only 0.045" wider than my .577-3" BPE Watson Bros. double rifle. It feels like the .577 with a little added weight—not at all bulky feeling like the 8-bore. The Prince must have REALLY wanted this cartridge because it had to have cost a bundle to make those cases. A blanking die, a cupping die, a series of deep drawing dies and a heading die all had to be made in order to manufacture the cartridge cases. I wonder if any other rifles were ever built to handle this cartridge. I also wonder if a cartridge collector somewhere has one of these cartridges in their collection and has no idea what it is… You know that they must have made a decent run of these cases since I doubt that they ever expected to make more after the initial batch.

Regards,

Jim

PS: The cartridge dimensions are really close to that of the .700 nitro express. One of those cartridges would chamber if 0.023" was removed just in front of the rim and 0.003" removed at the mouth. The rim is a bit larger and thicker as well. If drawn cases weren't so expensive, this would be an obvious source for cases to modify.

Edited by Watson577 (16/05/16 07:05 AM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282461 - 16/05/16 07:53 AM

It's a beauty! I can't wait to see it in the flesh.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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TH44
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282463 - 16/05/16 08:36 AM

Jim - Excellent rifle and best quality, I love the rose and scroll engraving

You are probably right that the prince wanted that particular combination and may have had it to order, against buying a standard 12 bore
16/14 bore is certainly unusual, even a one off?

The cases may, as you say have been made thicker for the higher pressure

The flat hammers are less common on later rifles, except some of top quality - Ideal barrel length

I hope you can get some cases/heads an tell us how it shoots!

With a weight of 13lbs 10 oz recoil should not be too bad, unless you give it the full 9 drams!
(my own H&H 8 bore ball gun at 16lbs lets me know with 10 drams)

Many thanks for posting

Tony


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DarylS
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: TH44]
      #282466 - 16/05/16 09:19 AM

Quote:

With a weight of 13lbs 10 oz recoil should not be too bad, unless you give it the full 9 drams!
(my own H&H 8 bore ball gun at 16lbs lets me know with 10 drams)

Many thanks for posting

Tony




Considering an 8 bore ball is in the 875gr. range, I would think this rifle's twist must use a bullet at least that weight - OUCH! Didn't Forsyth figure a standard conical for the 14 bore would be 2 ounces = 875gr. for a 3' to 4' twist.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Watson577
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Reged: 05/03/09
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #282468 - 16/05/16 09:52 AM

Tony,

I also wondered why a 12-bore wasn't ordered. There can't be much difference but if he wanted a very heavy bullet and a larger that usual powder charge, even a 12-bore like this would have required custom cases. Also, a friend sent me a Greener Police gun cartridge case that's drawn brass and it is almost exactly the right size in front of the rim. Maybe some of the Greener 14-bore case tooling could be used for this? Even if that was the case, a lot of custom tooling would certainly have been needed because of the case length. Unless the records are detailed enough, we may never know.

Daryl,

My guess, and this is mainly just a gut feel based on the need for a stronger case and the fast twist rifling is that it was made to fire a bullet of at least 875 grains and likely heavier--maybe in the 1000 grain range. Prince Esterhazy used a 12-bore and a 12-dram 8-bore rifle during his first trip to India in 1886/87 and maybe he wanted to throw the same amount of lead, or even more, with a rifle that is more manageable. Who knows... I just think that it's neat and I enjoy digging up all of the history that I can find.

-Jim


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Rockdoc
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282469 - 16/05/16 10:29 AM

What a gorgeous rifle and in great condition.

Congratulations.


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Iowa_303s
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Rockdoc]
      #282477 - 16/05/16 12:47 PM

What a beauty! It would an execelent rifle for hunting deer here in Iowa since we can only use shotguns, muzzleloaders and pistols.
Our DNR wankers are scared of rifles but feel perfectly safe with people slinging 5 or more 1 ounce slugs at a running deer during a drive.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #282478 - 16/05/16 12:50 PM

What a lovely rifle. What a find.

"Esterhazy"

The thread opened for me in the middle of the photos. The first thing I saw, was the embossed name on the guncase and got excited.

I am saw I have seen that name mentioned in early hunting accounts in Kenya, from the golden age. Maybe not the same person (?), but the name was immediately familiar. I am sure it us also a Hungarian name. Which fits in with the Austrian-Hungarian Empire.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #282488 - 16/05/16 06:00 PM

That's amazing, I've never seen anything like that with those specs !! I really hope you can get some brass made up. Telephone Pat Murphy at Hollands in London and ask him for the records, it should have the bullet details. I will be calling him for a chat later in the week so I can ask him to dig it out if you like. best, Mike

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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #282489 - 16/05/16 07:17 PM

Hi Mike,

They are already looking through the records at Hollands and hopefully, I'll find out something soon. I'm curious if this rifle was made to the Prince's specifications or whether more than one was made. He was a regular customer of Holland & Holland's and there are testimonials in the 1890 catalog from him. Maybe this was something experimental that they asked him to try out. Who knows... Regarding the history, I found a book that was published recently that has a lot of photos from the first India trip along with many others but it's written in German so I can't decipher too much. I can take photos using my phone and then translate using an app that I have but it does a pretty poor job and leaves a lot of the words untranslated. Eventually, I'll have to find someone fluent in both languages to do a proper translation. There is a written section about the 1890-91 trip but no photos. I'll bet that the Esterhazy archives has photos from that second trip to India as well. I'll add information to this thread as it's uncovered since there seems to be a fair amount of interest in it. So far, I have found over 300 newspaper articles that mention "Prince Louis Esterhazy" but the vast majority have to do with leaving for Vienna, returning from Vienna, dining with the Prince and Princess of Wales, attending weddings, balls, horse racing events, horse auctions, and participating in live pigeon shoots. Nothing regarding that second trip to India in the newspapers so far except for one that mentions that he was leaving for Vienna on his way to India. I'm really hoping to find a photo of him holding this rifle. I always hope to find a period photo of the rifle with the original owner but so far I have never found a photo like that for any of mine. If someone out there has his 8-bore, I can help in this respect since there is a photo in the book that I described with Prince Esterhazy holding the rifle and standing behind a tiger. There is also another photo where he is holding what looks to be a 500 express or similar--also a Holland & Holland.

Regard,

Jim


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lonewulf
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282495 - 16/05/16 11:17 PM



Gosh, that really is something special. Almost swallowed my tongue with envy. Quite beautiful.


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Buchsemann
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: lonewulf]
      #282499 - 17/05/16 12:13 AM

Jim,

Great find, congratulations! A very interesting rifle for sure and in great condition. All reads as this piece has a wonderful history. Looking forward to your updates.

Regards,

Mark

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Buchsemann]
      #282506 - 17/05/16 06:36 AM

Guys,

Thank you for your comments. I was like a moth drawn to a flame when I saw this rifle--I surely didn't need to buy another one but I just couldn't resist. I'm sure that many of you are well aware of how the disease progresses...

Regards,

Jim


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Itkid
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282543 - 17/05/16 11:05 PM

Congratulation for the rifle, it is in great condition.
Which program do you have for it?


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Jaguarhunter
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Itkid]
      #282546 - 18/05/16 12:24 AM

Eventually, I'll have to find someone fluent in both languages to do a proper translation.

I can do this.
:-)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Jaguarhunter]
      #282553 - 18/05/16 03:37 AM

" Usually three or four at least of a hunting party are killed before the season is over. You will understand, therefore, what good fortune we had in escaping loss of life.” "-

Amazing comment.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Itkid]
      #282560 - 18/05/16 06:56 AM

Hi Itkid,

I would gladly answer your question but I'm not sure what you are asking me. Can you ask your question in a different way?

Regards,

Jim


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Watson577
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Jaguarhunter]
      #282561 - 18/05/16 06:58 AM

Hi Jaguarhunter,

That's great! Should I send you the text that I have in a private message? Many thanks in advance for your help!

Regards,

Jim


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Rockdoc
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282577 - 18/05/16 10:02 AM

I just noticed 'Holland' and 'Bone Crusher' on they outside of the oak and leather case! Never seen that before!

Do you have a photo of the inside of the case? Just for curiosity sake.

The barrel photographed looks unused.


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Rockdoc]
      #282588 - 18/05/16 08:12 PM

That's what I thought, the barrels and bore look almost mint !! There is still quite substantial colour hardening too, a very rare piece indeed, best

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Watson577
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Reged: 05/03/09
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Rockdoc]
      #282621 - 19/05/16 04:13 AM

Hi there, Rockdoc,

I would post a photo of the interior of the case but it was basically gutted in 1948 when a pair of 10 gauge nitro shot barrels were made for it. Whoever owned it at that time removed all of the blocking and the dust lip at the ends of where the barrels fit so that the shot barrels could be put into the case. My intent is to restore the interior to a period correct state with the proper accessories. The cleaning rod is one that I was lucky enough to find at the Southern SxS meet. I bought it because I had never seen one like that before and it turns out to be the correct type for this rifle! I really lucked out on that one.

Regards,

Jim


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Watson577
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Reged: 05/03/09
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #282622 - 19/05/16 04:17 AM

Mike,

The bores are in new condition from what I can see--a pleasant surprise for sure. Externally, the rifle does look to have seen a considerable amount of use though so I guess that the bores were thoroughly cleaned and oiled between uses. Either that or it was carried around a lot but not fired often. I wish that my Alexander Henry .450-3-1/4" had been treated so well!

Regards,

Jim


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Itkid
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Re: Holland & Holland 16-Bore 9-Dram Double Rifle [Re: Watson577]
      #282665 - 19/05/16 10:28 PM

Quote:

Hi Itkid,

I would gladly answer your question but I'm not sure what you are asking me. Can you ask your question in a different way?

Regards,

Jim




Hi, i would say you pla to use it for hunting or simply collection and some shot in the range?


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