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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 731
Loc: West UK
Williams & Powell .577
      #151502 - 23/01/10 02:35 AM

Re: Curl's request for interesting double rifles, I bought this last year.

Williams and Powell, (not to be confused with William Powell) were in Liverpool, the 85 South Castle Street address puts it probably 1874-1876

Although a lesser known name, I fell for its general quality and that it is .577 2 inch (snider), as such an antique here in the UK

The sidelocks (bar action?) with safeties give a completely different look to the back actions

The straight stock with finger rest is also less usual








The fences are quite nice




For the Jones underlever fans, note the shaping of the end of the lever






That is dust in the barrells!!


The damascus twist shows up well


I like the little touches

The rifle appears totally original, I will keep it that way

TH44

Edited by CptCurl (23/01/10 11:16 PM)

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500grains
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: TH44]
      #151520 - 23/01/10 05:13 AM

Very nice!!!

How does it shoot?

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: TH44]
      #151587 - 23/01/10 11:27 PM

TH44,

That is a really nice rifle. I'm also curious. Do you shoot it? And how does it shoot. I've never owned a Snider but understand there are some challenges in loading the ammo.

Ross Seyfried wrote an article on the Snider some years ago for the Double Gun Journal, and in it he discussed the loading issues.

Another interesting feature of your rifle. I can't recall ever seeing bar action locks on a breechloader that are non-rebounding. Certainly that's my shortcoming because here they are! Is it possible this is a converted muzzleloader or maybe the locks were originally made to be used on a muzzleloader? I know so very little about the guns and rifles made in and around the transition from muzzleloading to breechloading.

I would like to see a photo of the barrel flats and proof marks.

Thank you very much for posting this beautiful and interesting double rifle.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
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Loc: West UK
Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: CptCurl]
      #151688 - 25/01/10 04:07 AM

Hi Guys

It has been shot only on a few occasions. By good luck a standard snider load of 70 grains volume of pyrodex (black powder needs more paperwork in UK)with a .582ish 480 grain lead bullet give around 2-3inches at 25 yards (as good as I can shoot with open sights)- [useless bullet with the snider, had to go to .600 round ball]

Curl - Many thanks for your compliments, I am pleased that others can enjoy.

The origins of the bar action locks were, as you say, in the percussion days. They were much more work to fit to a break open action and were generally used in the more expensive guns/rifles

The hammer cartridge guns/rifles were only at their peak from late 1860s to early 1870s or so, when the hammerless actions were clearly the way forward.
There were many locking systems tried from 1862? principally in shotguns, until the top lever (with the Jones underlever, especially in rifles) became the norm.

Many people preferred hammerguns which were kept going until well after the turn of the century
Many of these were cheaper versions and the back action locks became popular partly because they were easier to fit to the stock, instead of the action. Almost all makers, to a greater or lesser degree, bought in locks from lockmakers

This is not to denigrate your back action rifles, many are truly excellent, and all the top makers made 'best' guns and rifles using them

I had not noticed the locks were non-rebounding!! Another reason for considering this is a quite early rifle.
From the general appearance I would not think it was originally percussion, although such guns do exist



This pic shows the barrel flats with the standard London proofmrks - View, provisional and final proof, with 25 bore - interesting! - I calculated this to be .571", but it slugs at .583" which is what the (more modern) PH (Parker-Hale?) mould is that came with the rifle


Wedge securing fore end, compare with next pics - an earlier system?



These two Purdey shotguns, 1871 and 1875 show best quality guns from both systems

TH44

Edited by CptCurl (25/01/10 04:42 AM)

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tinker
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: TH44]
      #151702 - 25/01/10 05:15 AM

Have you measured the rate of twist in those barrels?
They appear to have a very very slow twist rate.

One of the Seyfried articles on 577 rifles discussed a snider rifle that had slow twist -- and ended up being very very accurate and regulated perfectly with the roundball.



Neat rifle.
Interesting extractor detail.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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srose
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: TH44]
      #151732 - 25/01/10 08:38 AM

TH44,

Nice looking gun. I have the same but my gun has a matching shotgun in 12 ga. Both my guns have the same serial # 5238 and the rifle has a #1 engraved on top tang, shotgun has a #2 on it. You can see my guns on pages 5&6 of classifides. Does your gun chamber new Snider brass or does it have an older chamber. My gun has a chamber for the older coiled or paper case. I had to make a sizing die to reduce the case down about 2/3's of the case leaving a base similar to a shotgun shell. I have shot my gun and it shoots pretty good with bullets of .585 dia. I have used mostly paper patched bullets in it and smokeless (imr4198) powder in it. I have been very easy on it so far and have not shot a 480 grain bullet over 1000 fps. It seems to like a 520 grain better. Too nice of a gun to overdo it. Anyway I thought you would be interested in seeing my guns. I will try to move photos to this part of NE.

Sam

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AkMike
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: srose]
      #151736 - 25/01/10 09:11 AM

You'll find alot of good information on the care and feeding of Sniders at http://britishmilitariaforums.yuku.com/

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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TH44
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Reged: 21/02/09
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: AkMike]
      #151744 - 25/01/10 12:03 PM

Tinker,

Thanks for mentioning the twist, I had not thought about it, it appears to be around 1 in 60" (7 groove) My snider is 3 groove 1 in 78" (also proofed 25 bore)
Extractors are unusual, I have not seen others

srose,

Yes please if you can post them here I would very much like to see them
What load of 4198 do you use? I like this powder and use it on other calibres

AkMike,

Thanks for the info, I use/post that forum, but like the commercial/sporting guns/rifles/pistols here

TH44

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srose
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: TH44]
      #151755 - 25/01/10 01:55 PM

TH44

I used 32 grains IMR4198 with a 480 grain bullet for 1000 fps and 30 grains with a 560 grain for 900 fps. Both loads were mild and shot pretty good. I will some day work up to about 1200 fps if I decide to continue to shoot it. Have too many others to play with. I used 2 28 ga fiber wads under the bullet. I would like to use black powder but just don't want to have to deal with the hassle of cleaning everything. I have also used clear shot powder and pyrodex but prefer IMR4198.

Sam

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TH44
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: srose]
      #151800 - 25/01/10 09:34 PM

Sam

Many thanks, I will try the 4198 load for the next time I shoot it
As you say, with limited range time and others to play with, but I may try the load with .600 roundball in the Snider, they can go together

TH44

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TH44
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: TH44]
      #152399 - 01/02/10 04:07 AM

Srose

I tried the 4198 load yesterday with problems

The powder did not ignite properly, 2 rounds 3 inches up the barrells, 3rd went 20 yards, the 4th hit the target and chronoed 450 fps! Unburnt powder everywhere!

I used the above load with fibre wads, the bullet just touched them, no airspace.
I had similar problem with my snider, .600 Round ball, dacron filler, cookie plus milk carton wads, federal primers - ball 2 inches down bore, as above

I loaded a 12mm R/B remington with the same powder and primers the same day, perfect! The 12mm case is a little smaller but similar % of case filling

What am I doing wrong? Should I (did you) use magnum primers?, Or go back to pyrodex?

Any help would be appreciated

TH44

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belgmart
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: TH44]
      #152402 - 01/02/10 04:41 AM

I for one would start out with some B, to get a reference load - after all, that's what the rifle was made for. Next - chamber cast: Most Sniders I know of have a groove dia. of at least .590, so that .582 bullet with 4198 could just be a case of the bullet being too small, and not able to build up enough resistance. Also, 4198 does sound like a bit slow-burning for the round, aggravating the issue...
BP is the propellant of preference IMO, and I'm not talking the fake BP's either. Maybe you should get the storage box and fill out the papers...

--------------------
Martini's Rule!

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Bramble
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: belgmart]
      #152433 - 01/02/10 01:06 PM

TH44

With great respect, stop there.

Bullets lodged in bores and the space filled with unburnt powder, is a single step away from a detonation in the bore, due to stalled and restarted ignition.

That is a lovely old gun, let alone the possible damage to yourself.

Hodgedon have recently posted a way of measuring "Trail Boss" for they say "Any" center fire cartridge. It may be worth a call to them if you are wanting to use smokeless propellant as they don't specifically say they are OK for NFB loads.

Failing that I would apply for the BP ticket. It is not much of a chore.

PS. A Caveat, I know it is an obsolete caliber, but do you have it on Sec 1 if you are shooting it, the authorities are getting pretty hot on this because of all the 577/450's out there.

Regards

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srose
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: TH44]
      #152443 - 01/02/10 02:15 PM

TH44,

Sorry you had problems. Yes I used Fed 215 magnum primers. I have had problems in the past with 4198 not igniting. You have to be sure powder in held tight against the primer. I didn't have any trouble with these loads I told you about. I'm always a little nervous when you have a big diameter case and a very small amount of powder. I don't think I would use any powder that is faster than 4198 in this cartridge.

Sam

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DarylS
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: srose]
      #152447 - 01/02/10 02:26 PM

I'm with Bramble - but I'd likely call Accurate Arms in the States, or e-mail them and ask about their 5744 powder. They should have a method of contace on their site.

Personally, I'd be loading real black powder, myself. that appears to be a very early gun.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Bramble
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: DarylS]
      #152448 - 01/02/10 02:41 PM

Good Idea Daryl

I hadn't thought about 5744.

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rglenz
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: Bramble]
      #152459 - 01/02/10 04:01 PM

I usually just lurk here,and keep silent,but it's time to speak up!You are courting danger with 4198 in a snider.I use IMR 4759(thats a 9 not 6),26 grains under a 480 grain paper patched bullet with a filler works great in my snider carbine. I use dacron,use plenty,felt wads work also.
Due to the convoluted history of the 577 snider cartridge,you also need to fill the case with wads when using black powder,there is just to much room

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: rglenz]
      #152473 - 01/02/10 11:06 PM

TH44,

Which brand of 4198 did you use?

I agree with opinions above that you are in very dangerous territory, for whatever reason. Step back and take your time finding a solution.

I've never loaded for a Snider so know nothing to suggest.

Good luck,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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srose
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: CptCurl]
      #152486 - 02/02/10 01:02 AM

TH44,

Even though I said I wouldn't use a faster powder than 4198 in the snider there are other powders with similar burn rates that may ignite better. Also IMR4759 is one of my favorite powders but it does have a fast burn rate similar to shotgun flake powders. It is a bulk powder. I have not used this powder in big cases so I won't tell you to try it. I think Gramme Wright had some information on pressure tests in his new book.
Vintage guns are fun to shoot but you need to be careful.

Sam

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DarylS
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: rglenz]
      #152495 - 02/02/10 02:15 AM

I thought about 4759, have used a lot of it in smaller rifle cases with cast bullets, but since many guys with more experience than I use and like 5744, figured that might be better yet due to it's being even easier to ignite small charges with lots of case space.
Years back, in the erly 80's I switched to kapok from dacron when I needed to fill a case to the base of the bullet.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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TH44
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: DarylS]
      #152543 - 02/02/10 10:32 AM

Hi Guys

Many thanks for all your input and advice - I had grasped that I needed to stop and rethink!

I was seduced (again!) by the easier cleaning and lower pressures (opinion from several sources) of NFB loads

If it is to be shot again BP would probably be the way forward, but there is much useful advice here

Thanks again for all your help

TH44

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beleg2
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: TH44]
      #156396 - 14/03/10 02:15 AM

FWIW:
I tryed the IMR 4198 in my Snider and have ignition problems.
Was very funny as a couple of cartridge keep the gases from the primer inside so make a funny noise when I take the bullet out.LOL.

For BP load you can try a trick of britishmilitaryforum but with FFg intead of 777:

Brass............ Converted Magtech 24 ga. to .577
Case length... 1.975"
Primer........... CCI #209 shotgun primer
Main charge... 50 grains Triple "7" ffg
Filler mix........ 20 grains ffg B.P./20 grains C.o.W.(mixed well)
Wad............. One .70"dia milk carton wad
Lube............ One 1/8" lube cookie
Bullet........... .590/310 grain Round Ball pushed into neck
Over all length 2.265". This round is loaded tight, no compression and no loosseness.

Looks good, if you use only BP you can get 115gn into this case.
JMHO
Martin

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crusty
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Re: Williams & Powell .577 [Re: beleg2]
      #156909 - 19/03/10 12:46 PM

TH44,

I have a friend with a Snider double & the bore is MUCH tighter than a Snider actioned rifle & with a better designed throat and also a much faster twist. His shoots BP very well & accurately.

I suggest that the loads on the British Militaria forum are suitable for a Snider Actioned rifle and should only be used as a very rough guide. Pressures will be a bit different in the tighter bored double.
It would be worth asking in the reloading section of that forum though, "The Double D" might have some loading ideas.

A note about the 25 bore - that is the BORE size, not the groove diameter which you measured at .583". In this case a 25 bore size ball will pass through the barrel, but a 24 bore won't.

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