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9.3x57
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: John]
      #98019 - 01/03/08 08:24 AM

John, that is an excellent book. I have a copy, too.

A couple points that have gone unmentioned, but should be:

There is much confusion associated with bullet penetration of various media. For example, the NE rounds make for relatively poor armor penetrators, but will penetrate fairly dense masses of soft obstacles; wood, sand, etc. Thus, what might make for a poor holer in plate might also make for a good penetrator of sandfilled sandbags. However, sniper pits were commonly built up using sandbags filled with rock, gravel, etc. Such a barrier is amazingly effectve at stopping even quite heavy bullets.

In fact, due to a variety of factors, penetration against soft targets like sand actually increases with range {to a limit, varying with caliber} and each caliber has an optimum range for penetration of wood, sand, gravel, brick, etc. The US military has guidleines for creating loopholes, manholes and mere penetrations of the various building materials as well, and extensive testing has been done to demonstrate how many rounds of each service caliber it takes to create such penetrations.

In addition, angle of impact makes a big difference to penetration depth as well.

Also, the German 13mm is a very impressive performer, similar to our .50 BMG and is light years more effective in holing steel than a .500 Nitro. The bullet diameter nothwithstanding. I have a bullet in my junk drawer someplace.

I myself have here on the place seen a round of steelcore {not AP} .50 BMG penetrate a 3/8 inch thick cold rolled plate, then a couple inches of airspace and then a half inch steel plate, this from a range of 400 meters.

Some curious experimenters could make an interesting day of shooting steel plate at 200, 300 and 400 yards with a variety of heavy NE rounds. Then do so with sandbags filled with a variety of materials. This sort of thing is quite instructive and would be quite interesting in light of various assertions made in various published sources.

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450_366
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98093 - 02/03/08 08:16 AM

Hi!

Some where on this forum there is a link to a copy of H&H catalog 1912. On the page 39 there is a add of a 450 Nr.2 pearcing a 9/16" steel plate. And ofcoarse this is only an add but the old steel was crap, tryed to weld some old beams from a ship yard once and it was almost made of pure coal and acted closely to cast iron. So its probably possible if one are careful in choosing the right steel.

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Ripp
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: John]
      #98095 - 02/03/08 09:02 AM

Wow--I had no idea doubles were used for this..very fascinating..

As to shootng metal--at our range the metal is facing at an angle to the gound which helps in diverting the bullet downward versus back to the shooter--but I agree--caution needs to be taken no matter what..

Ripp

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9.3x57
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 450_366]
      #98097 - 02/03/08 09:34 AM

Quote:

Hi!

Some where on this forum there is a link to a copy of H&H catalog 1912. On the page 39 there is a add of a 450 Nr.2 pearcing a 9/16" steel plate. And ofcoarse this is only an add but the old steel was crap, tryed to weld some old beams from a ship yard once and it was almost made of pure coal and acted closely to cast iron. So its probably possible if one are careful in choosing the right steel.




You are right on the money. Steel type, alloy and heat treatment make a huge difference in resistance to bullets.

If I remember correctly, H-P does not say in his book that the military calibers DIDN'T penetrate the take-home German loophole plates, but rather that the NE's did. Also, I do not believe he ever published a comparative test between the calibers.

From my own shooting, I will say the standard issue MKVII .303 performs rather poorer against steel plate than many loadings of 7.92x57 and .30-06 possibly due I believe to the varied fillers used in the tip of the MKVII. And certainly 215 grain MKVI would offer no advantage and likely perform even poorer against steel. Early in the War, I am not at all certain that issue stocks of ammo to British troops did not include both types. In fact, I have read references to both types in service during the Great War.

A heavy caliber NE bullet might offer advantages against cast iron which is very brittle indeed.

All plate shooters know the effects of continued impact. I have a piece of 3/8 inch plate we used here for 300-500 yard shooting. It stopped all sub-.50 BMG calibers for a long time but eventually developed stress cracks and then started to let individual rounds go through, sometimes "squirting" thru in a flattened shape. Even the "poor" .303 got so it would hole it from time-to-time.

For the most dramatic of example of that, see page 355 of the War Office Textbook of Small Arms 1929, with picture facing page 354. This 2-inch thick plate was holed by continuous impact of rounds at 500 yards. Two-inch thick steel plate is a lot of steel plate.

H-P also mentions the use of a .350 Mauser for sniping purposes though the reference I am thinking of involved its use to attract fire due to its muzzle flash and smoke. Assuming soft point ammo was used, a center mass strike from this thing would have been a classic example of a combat multiplier.

Finally, armor penetration is now a science. It was more of an art when Hesketh-Pritchard wrote his book.

Shooting plate of unknown alloy, hardness, shear strength etc is interesting but not very instructive for military purposes. Just because one bullet at one velocity penetrates one type of plate better than another bullet, doesn't mean that the latter bullet won't beat the former in some other type of plate. Maybe there are some steel, iron, or alloy types that the big NE's will hole better than smaller rounds.

Maybe an engineer can fill us in on "adiabatic shear" and make a prediction as to what type of metal material a given bullet from a .475 No 2 might defeat that a given bullet from a .303 wouldn't!!

--------------------
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450_366
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98129 - 02/03/08 09:16 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Hi!

Some where on this forum there is a link to a copy of H&H catalog 1912. On the page 39 there is a add of a 450 Nr.2 pearcing a 9/16" steel plate. And ofcoarse this is only an add but the old steel was crap, tryed to weld some old beams from a ship yard once and it was almost made of pure coal and acted closely to cast iron. So its probably possible if one are careful in choosing the right steel.




You are right on the money. Steel type, alloy and heat treatment make a huge difference in resistance to bullets.

If I remember correctly, H-P does not say in his book that the military calibers DIDN'T penetrate the take-home German loophole plates, but rather that the NE's did. Also, I do not believe he ever published a comparative test between the calibers.

From my own shooting, I will say the standard issue MKVII .303 performs rather poorer against steel plate than many loadings of 7.92x57 and .30-06 possibly due I believe to the varied fillers used in the tip of the MKVII. And certainly 215 grain MKVI would offer no advantage and likely perform even poorer against steel. Early in the War, I am not at all certain that issue stocks of ammo to British troops did not include both types. In fact, I have read references to both types in service during the Great War.

A heavy caliber NE bullet might offer advantages against cast iron which is very brittle indeed.

All plate shooters know the effects of continued impact. I have a piece of 3/8 inch plate we used here for 300-500 yard shooting. It stopped all sub-.50 BMG calibers for a long time but eventually developed stress cracks and then started to let individual rounds go through, sometimes "squirting" thru in a flattened shape. Even the "poor" .303 got so it would hole it from time-to-time.

For the most dramatic of example of that, see page 355 of the War Office Textbook of Small Arms 1929, with picture facing page 354. This 2-inch thick plate was holed by continuous impact of rounds at 500 yards. Two-inch thick steel plate is a lot of steel plate.

H-P also mentions the use of a .350 Mauser for sniping purposes though the reference I am thinking of involved its use to attract fire due to its muzzle flash and smoke. Assuming soft point ammo was used, a center mass strike from this thing would have been a classic example of a combat multiplier.

Finally, armor penetration is now a science. It was more of an art when Hesketh-Pritchard wrote his book.

Shooting plate of unknown alloy, hardness, shear strength etc is interesting but not very instructive for military purposes. Just because one bullet at one velocity penetrates one type of plate better than another bullet, doesn't mean that the latter bullet won't beat the former in some other type of plate. Maybe there are some steel, iron, or alloy types that the big NE's will hole better than smaller rounds.

Maybe an engineer can fill us in on "adiabatic shear" and make a prediction as to what type of metal material a given bullet from a .475 No 2 might defeat that a given bullet from a .303 wouldn't!!




Check out the 3/4" cylinder the round forced out when penetrating, never seen that on "steel".

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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9.3x57
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 450_366]
      #98148 - 03/03/08 01:28 AM

Quote:

Check out the 3/4" cylinder the round forced out when penetrating, never seen that on "steel".




Depending on the shear strength of the material shot, plugs of steel will be pushed out by bullets under certain circumstances. I used to have a bunch of them around but they must have gotten tossed during one of my rare house-cleaning episodes.

For those who have never seen them, maybe I could set up a plate in front of my Boards & Jugs and recover a few. Using my .375, though admittedly for this post's interest a .577 would be better...

Incidently, Labbett and Mead reference use of various NE rounds in the mad dash to find a decent AP round early on in the Great War, that is to say, they were experimented with. Indeed, they even mention the rechambering of a P-13 .276 to .470!

Immediately previous British efforts had revolved around terminal effect against unarmored targets/enemy while at the same time staying within the "spirit" of the Hague and St Petersburg declarations. These efforts resulted in the production of the 174 grain MKVII bullet after the introduction of the German M1905 bullet obsoleted the MKVI round nose in British service. By the time of WW1, previous Hollow Point bullets had been withdrawn from service and were not on issue for use against European enemies anyway, tho it seems likely that some made their way to the trenches.

--------------------
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9.3x57
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #98917 - 10/03/08 11:48 PM

As promised, here are a couple plugs punched through 3/8 steel plate {support beam section} at 20 meters.

First, before going any further, as I warned earlier, I recommend people not shoot this stuff. I set up a barrier made of tires and a steel plate and had double eye protection, body armor, helmet etc. Good thing too as one large bullet fragment poured back and struck the barrier dead in front of me.

Rifle is a SAKO .375 H&H. Not a .470, .577, etc, but technically a NE I guess, and likely a better plate buster than some others. I chose 3/8 inch plate as I knew the .375 would hole it up close but didn't know at what range it wouldn't.

Please note, I do not know what the alloy of the plate is. This makes all the difference. Every piece of metal is different and depending on plate thickness, alloy and heat treatment, results can vary completely. As stated before, there is a science of armor busting and I do not make any claims to settle anything in this little demonstration, except to show what happens in this specific medium.

Standard Boards/Jugs media backing up steel plate {for recovery}. Here are the results of two shots fired at muzzle velocity 2450 fps:



Left 3 pieces:

300 grain Hornady FMJ; Full penetration 1 board, found in first jug. Bullet hole thru plate just under 5/8 inch diameter. Pieces found in the jug were the steel plate plug and the rear half of the jacket. This is the narrow diameter "tube" seen. Rifling is clearly distinguishable on the inside of the tube, the jacket having reversed itsefl inside out like a sock. The wider tube is the portion that bounced back and struck the barrier in front of me.

Right 3 pieces:

300 grain Hornady Round Nose Soft Point. Full penetration 2 boards, found in 2nd jug. Bullet hole 5/8 diameter. Pieces found in 2nd jug were the piece of lead and the BASE of the jacket, flattened and showing rifling. Steel plug waas found on the table, HOT.

Yes, the soft point penetrated deeper than the FMJ. Commonly happens in some media. Remember, neither of these are AP rounds.

Soft point did not penetrate the plate at 100 meters or 200 yards {distances on my range}. Divit at 100 was fairly deep and planting a few shots in the same area would likely be enough to allow one to get through after a time.

A small demonstration to show the effects of a vintage 1912, pre-War round on relatively soft plate. That Hesketh-Pritchard went no further with use of NE rounds for "loophole busting" does not surprise me.

A couple further pix:

The table after the Hornady 300 grain FMJ shot {piece that bounced back placed on the bottom right for display}:



The table after the Hornady 300 grain Soft Point shot {Wolf 60 grain FMJ 5.45x39 shot above the black dot}:



--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by CptCurl (08/06/11 08:58 PM)


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9.3x57
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #99121 - 13/03/08 11:53 AM

OK, these aren't NE's, but they do give you another vantage.

I'm really hoping that somebody gets out with with their .500 Boswell or .470 Rigby or .465 H&H or some such and gives us the real deal.

In the meantime, the gauntlett is dropped, so to speak.

Here is what a 9.3x57 285 grain Prvi Partizan Round Nose Soft at 2100 fps and and a 6.5x55 140 grain Remington CLSP at c.2650 fps do to the same piece of steel identified in the edit above, last post, does.



The 9.3 only left a very deep dent and a big tit on the opposite side, but did not fully penetrate. The 6.5 penetrated the 3/8 inch steel beam and then the board behind it and the steel plug and some bullet fragments were found in the jug.


The 9.3 fragment shown is actually the bullet, with the round base of the jacket soldered to the inside bottom of the hole. It poured/bounced back about 10 meters toward me. As usual GREAT safety measures must be taken if you are going to shoot steel plate.

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Checkman
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: John]
      #99265 - 15/03/08 02:30 PM

Hello everyone. I've been lurking around nitroexpress for many months now. I don't own any double rifles and probably never will. But like many shooters I'm fascinated by them. Hope I can contribute something now and again. Like right now.


Take a look at "Out of Nowhere. A History of the Military Sniper" by Martin Pegler (Osprey Publishing 2004) . He addresses this topic in Chapter 4 on page 87.

Quote:

In 1914 and early 1915 the British were so short of artillery ammunition that such strongpoints could be used with impunity. The loopholes proved to be a real problem for the British, who had no means of defeating them. Moreover as the Germans gained experience, the plates so casually piled up around a trench gradually disappeared to be replaced by carefully inset shields, set well back in the parapet wall and often covered with sacking or other camoflauge. They were placed in enfilade, at an acute angle to the line of trenches, facing both left and right, giving an interlocking field of fire.

No ordinary .303 inch ball ammunition could penetrate the steel of the German sniper's shields, and while a good rifleman could put a bullet through an open loophole he had to be both quick and lucky. In a desperate attempt to deal with the German snipers, the British War Office purchased some 62 large bore sporting rifles for issue to marksmen: 47 of .450 calibre, four of .470 calibre, one of .475 calibre, four of .500 calibre, two of .577 calibre and four of .600 inch. Each rifle was inspected at Enfield prior to issue then marked with the War Department broad arrow. Some British officers supplied their own.




Mr. Pegler goes on to quote Stuart Cloete, sniping officer for the King's Own Yorkshire Light Infantry.

Quote:

We used a heavy sporting rifle - a 600 Express. These heavy rifles had been donated to the army by big game hunters and when we hit a steel plate we stove it right in. But it had to be fired standing or from a kneeling position to take up the recoil. the first man who fired it in the prone position had his collar bone broken.




Ouch. Mr. Pegler is or was the seniro curator of Firearms at the Royal Armouries Museum, Leeds UK. In the 1980's he interviewed many of the surviving (British) World War One veterans and those interviews are now part of the sound archives of the Imperial War Museum, London.

Once again hope this helped.

Edited by Checkman (15/03/08 02:36 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: Checkman]
      #99272 - 15/03/08 04:44 PM

Checkman

Welcome to NitroExpress.com, your first post. Thanks for the information and references on this interesting matter.

Please join in, its always more enjoyable for members when they join in. Cheers.

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John aka NitroX

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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #99280 - 15/03/08 09:58 PM

Checkman,

Welcome to the forum, and thanks for posting this information.

Also, thanks for the email you sent me last night. Your kind comments are appreciated very much.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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9.3x57
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: Checkman]
      #99295 - 16/03/08 12:18 AM

Checkman, thanks for posting! Keep it up!

"Desperate attempt" is right on. I think personally the really interesting story here is the "non-story", meaning, the essentially complete failure of the NE guns to provide any significant advantage or useful service under the conditions of trench warfare. The story is the desperation that all nations experienced when confronted with static warfare conditions and the development of weapons to gain advantage. Recoil, muzzle blast, "smoke" are all cited in various sources as factors insuring the failure of the NE rounds in military service, and I might add my surmise that poor ballistic effect and practical accuracy is also another.

Hitting a typical loophole plate from a realistic, camoflaged position at, say, 300 meters would be nigh unto impossible with an Express-sighted .500 NE or some such and even if by luck of the draw a fellow dropped one on target, the best that would occur would be a clanging of the gong.

I have wondered, but never read, if any similar attempts were made by the Germans, i.e. the use of "elephant calibers" in the trenches. They did, of course, introduce the 13mm Mauser round in '18, but that is another bird of an entirely different feather. I have read of the use by German forces of various hunting rifles for sniping purposes, brought to the trenches by Försters but never read of an attempt to specifically use them for loophole busting which, of course, they would not have been much good for.

Truth is, loophole penetration never was the ultimate direction of sniping equipment. Targets of opportunity and open targets and more exposed targets {esp. machine guns, both the gun and gunners, etc} were. Artillery {HE, frag or later, gas} or machinegun fire were, of course, also used to remove sniping threats. My experience with the .303 against plate of a variety of types proves to me at least the generally poor properties of the cartridge against such targets. In fact, Labbett & Meade extensively treat the attempts by the Brits to develop a truly effective AP round for the .303, an attempt that never was very successful.

On a somewhat related note, by 1943, the USA essentially discontinued the use of pure lead core ammunition {150 gr M1906, 152 grain M2 Ball} and the lion's share of our involvement in WW2 was fought with a preponderance of 163-168 grain steel core AP.

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John
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #100284 - 25/03/08 11:20 PM

Can anyone point in the right direction to start researching Jeffery sale records? Also looking for the serial number range and dates for Lenard as I belive the Jeffery rifle I pictured at the start, was in fact manufactured by Lenard.

Thanks
John


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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: John]
      #180585 - 03/05/11 04:22 AM

Re-opening this interesting topic on how double rifles were used for war in WW1.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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xausa
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #180594 - 03/05/11 06:21 AM

I once belonged to a gun club where one of the members brought out a steel manhole cover and left is at the 200 yard berm for other members to shoot at and try to penetrate. I tried all the heavy calibers I owned at the time, including .375 H&H, .416/.300 Winchester Magnum and .458, using solids, and achieved little or no penetration, but some impressive cratering.

Then I tried a handload consisting of a US made 165 grain armor piercing bullet in my .300 H&H, and it went through the metal like a knife through hot butter. I expect the original .30-'06 AP load would have done the same. I have read all the accounts of double rifles in the trenches, and I am afraid I viewed them with great scepticism, based on my own experience.

Years earlier, a German friend of mine had invited me to hunt with him on what had been a Bundeswehr firing range near Stuttgart. As we were leaving after an unsuccessful hunt, we came upon an abandoned armored personnel carrier which had been used as a target. Out of curiosity, I fired a round from my friends 8X57JS hunting rifle at the armor plate.

When we examined the plate, it was only with difficulty that we were able to determine where the bullet had hit, so little impression had it made on the armor plate. In fact, if the plate had not been painted, we probably could not have determined the point of impact at all.


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rigbymauser
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: xausa]
      #180600 - 03/05/11 07:41 AM

I have both books on sniping in WW1.."Sniping in French" and " a rifleman went to war". Interesting books, whch for me tell that even back then they knew a whole lot about a snipers Jobs/problems envolved on the battlefield, which is exactly the same today. A good long shot at 600-700yards was considered top class shooting with the guns they had back then.
Ofcouse as a owner of a .333Jeffery gun, I find it with a great interest, that it was the best caliber to be used against the german steelplates. I believe they must have been using th 250grain FMJ from Kynoch.
For the moment, I am scouting for books or info regarding the sharpshootings in the US civilwar.
I read somewhere that a unioncompany has some special muzzleloading rifles with special long barrels, that were used.I think it was in a Gun Digest I read it.

Edited by rigbymauser (03/05/11 07:44 AM)


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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: rigbymauser]
      #180969 - 07/05/11 05:42 AM

its maybe 10 years ago that this steel plates were shot at the military range in my neighborhood. I remember the pics that were made then:


12,7mm / .500" thick steel plate, common simple stuff shot with 7,62 nato, 8x57 IS and 5,56 nato spitzer bullet at 10 meter

the bigger stuff penetrat but the small 5,56 fail. all bullets had only a lead core!

this are 20mm, 25mm and 30 mm steel plates shote at 25 meter with a 50 BMG rifle and IMI surplus ammo - the bullet with a soft steel core


you see that only the 20mm thick plate was penetrated, notice how the steel core looks

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (08/06/11 09:00 PM)


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Gunnie
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: John]
      #183234 - 08/06/11 09:17 AM

Interesting thread. Remember seeing a doco on the fate of a WWI tank. The mil-history boffin followed the lead that the Germans would take the projectiles out of their standard issue 8mm Mauser rounds and reverse it.
He went on to prove that such a set would easily penetrate the steel plating as was used on the tank in question. My memory is a bit hazy on the full doco but I think he even went on to test the reversed 190-odd grain FMJ pills on modern steel plate of the same thickness: same result!
Food for thought!

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elvas
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: Gunnie]
      #183241 - 08/06/11 05:14 PM

Some testing we made with the US-S 515P slug (12ga hardened steel slug) loaded in 3" hulls at 1600f/s against ths 50 BMG loaded with both Ball and AP bullets.
Shooting distance: 15m.
Material used: 80mm thick bullet resistant glass.
Upper left: 50 BMG AP. Complete penetration.
Upper Right: 50 BMG Ball. Didn't fully penetrate.
Lower Center: US-S 515P slug. Didn't fully penetrate but went deeper than the 50 BMG Ball.




Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Edited by CptCurl (08/06/11 09:02 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: elvas]
      #183242 - 08/06/11 07:15 PM

not bad for a slug


this website only mention "machined in cnc horizontal machining centers with plus or minus .0002 tolerances to all its dimensions. The specific brass alloy used has a hardness of 120 Brinell."
do you mean another version made from steel?
sounds like a dangerous game slug







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by CptCurl (08/06/11 09:03 PM)


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elvas
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Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 64
Loc: Thessaloniki, GREECE
Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #183245 - 08/06/11 07:42 PM

lancaster,
This is the US-S 515P slug, machined of steel and hardened at 60 Rockwell "C".





It was designed to be used as an anti material slug by Military/Law Enforcement agencies.
Another testing of the US-S 515P (P=Penetrator) against disc wheels.




Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Edited by CptCurl (08/06/11 09:05 PM)


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: elvas]
      #183282 - 09/06/11 05:38 AM

Impressive - makes the experimentor in me want to do some experimenting, considering I have bags and bags of steel shot wads, lathe, and lots of materials at hand that might make slugs besides lead. Only thing lacking is time or desire - and since I'm retired?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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elvas
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Reged: 18/04/06
Posts: 64
Loc: Thessaloniki, GREECE
Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #183452 - 11/06/11 07:40 PM

Daryl,
I don't think that most steel shot wads will work satisfactory because of their tapered shotcup construction.
If you have a fully rifled barrel gun try the Federal 12S3 or 12S4 (depending on slug length) that have parallel petals.
Another testing of the US-S 515P slug against 57mm thick bullet resistant glass. Holes are at about 12cm apart.





Lefteris
www.europeancartridgeunlimited.com

Edited by CptCurl (11/06/11 08:31 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: elvas]
      #240767 - 17/01/14 05:48 AM

BTTT due to a current interest

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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kuduae
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Reged: 13/01/10
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #240774 - 17/01/14 07:36 AM

About the start of sniping in WW1 on the other (German) side, may I draw your attention to this thread?

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=207835&an=0&page=6#Post207835

Here is what I wrote some time ago in the GGCA www.germanguns.com publication Waidmannsheil #47 on the German early snipers and their militarized sporting rifles:

AS C.N.Parkinson stated in his law on military matters, "every army is well prepared to fight the next-to-last war". When the Great War broke out September 1914, none of the adversaries envisioned the course it would take. The armies were prepared to engage adversaries attacking upright over open battlefields at long and even longer ranges, whole companies firing volleys on command. So the German Gewehr 98 had a sight calibrated up to 2000 meters, nearly one and a quarter mile, but the lowest "battle sight" setting was a full 400 meters, 437 yards. This made the rifle shoot about 7 inches high at 100 yards. No one had yet envisioned the effect of the new-fangled machineguns firing flat-trajectory smokeless loads. This and the massed fire of infantry rifles made any movement more than a foot over ground suicide. This forced the opposing armies to dig themselves into trenches, where they remained stuck for the next four years. The usual fighting ranges shrank to 30 to 150 yards and targets grew small. The greatest menace to any attempt of attack were the machine guns. Both sides soon emplaced their machineguns behind protective steel plates, firing through small loopholes. The destruction of these MGs in spite of the armor plates was of utmost importance. The British tried in vain to solve the problem using raw power: They tried to use big-game rifles, .40" caliber up, firing solids, to smash the plates. Jeffery of London even supplied a few single-shot rifles in .600 NE to the Royal Navy Marines, who opposed the German marines in the flat fields of Flanders, close to the sea.
Late in 1914 some young German officers tried another approach to the problem. One of them used his scoped 8x57 hunting rifle. With five shots at ranges of about 100 yards they managed to hit into the small steel plate apertures, each time putting the enemy gun and/or gunner out of action. After their report of such success, the German army deemed a scoped rifle an useable tool for trench warfare, but the army had never thought about riflescopes. As usual with any army, developing and testing an issue scoped rifle would take some time, so stop-gap action was necessary.
In January 1915 Prince Ratibor, the then president of the German Hunters Association, openly appealed to the German hunters to donate their scoped, 8x57 hunting rifles to the war effort. Soon many such rifles of all makes and action types were sent to the frontlines. As civilian cartridges and loads were not standardized than, many break-open rifles for the rimmed numbers perhaps mixed in and some of the private rifles were used and misused before, firing the issue S cartridge led to some unspecified accidents. So the rifles were withdrawn from the front shortly to be inspected by military arsenals. Only rifles on Mauser M98 actions were to be accepted and issued. Those suitable for the then standard .323" bullet S cartridge were stamped with a Z-prefix registration number, while those deemed suitable only for the limited standard old .318" bullet Patrone 88 cartridge got a D-prefix number. Apparently arsenal staff thought this D or Z marking sufficient at first, as rifle D 771 shows no other markings. But soldiers usually don't read instruction manuals, so soon the .318", D-marked rifles got a metal plate too, with the warning "Nur für Patrone Mod.88" (for cartridge 88 only!) and a sketch of the distinguishing round nose bullet of that load. Rifle D 2241 shows the traces of this plate, and there is a photo of a German sniper in Senich's book that shows such a plate.
After acceptance both rifles were issued to the German marines, evidenced by the KM stamp.
By April 1915 the Prussian Army (yes, there were still the armies of the other German states, f.i. the Bavarian, Saxonian and so on) alone reported having 3700 donated rifles issued plus 1000 bought in from dealer's shelves, but this supply still did not meet demand. Jon Speed, the well-known author of books on Mauser, gave me additional documents from the Mauser factory. Many thanks! Additional to a photo showing German soldiers with scoped commercial "African model" Mauser Sporters, there are three ledger entries from 1915: In February 1915 Mauser shipped 334 "Repetierpirschbüchsen" = hunting rifles to the "Königliche Gewehrfabrik Spandau" = Prussian rifle factory in Spandau. Another 600 sporters went to Spandau June 15, 1915. The "Artillerie Depot Karlsruhe" received 1282 such rifles in 1915, intended for the Southern German armies.
By 1916 the military bureaucracy had finally accepted a way to convert selected Gewehr 98 infantry rifles to snipers: Bolt handles were bent down with a stock cutout below and commercial scopes mounted by several gunsmithes using several mounting systems. During summer 1916 the stop-gap sporting rifles were withdrawn from the fronts, put into storage and replaced with "Scharfschützengewehr 98" sniper rifles. As scopes were in short supply these were removed from the sporters and mounted on the new rifles.


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