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John
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Reged: 23/01/07
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Loc: Manitoba, Canada
WWI Sniper Rifle
      #97828 - 28/02/08 09:48 AM

World War I Sniper Rifle !

Here we have a Jeffery .475 Number 2 double rifle with the British "Broad Arrow" stamp, which would indicate that she was purchased through the War Office. British snipers used these large caliber rifles to engage German snipers who used heavy steel plates for protecting their firing loop holes.

Has any one seen these markings on any other double rifles? my knowledge in this area is limited to what I have read from Maj. Hesketh-Prichard's "Sniping in France" and Ian Skennerton's "The British Sniper."

I believe some one has the sales records for W J Jeffery, I would like the contact information for him if any one has it, thanks.

John




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mickey
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: John]
      #97830 - 28/02/08 09:52 AM

Seems I remember reading something about Holland & Holland building Double rifles for shooting at balloons.

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Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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500Nitro
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: mickey]
      #97832 - 28/02/08 10:03 AM



Large calibre DR's were used for knocking down the steel plates that snipers used to hide behind.

I believe Jeffrey DR's were used and have seen it written up somewhere.

Trench Warefare at it's best !!!


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 500Nitro]
      #97846 - 28/02/08 12:50 PM

My Jeffrey must be a "sniper" rifle having express sights with leaves out to 500 yards!

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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9.3x57
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #97860 - 28/02/08 03:35 PM

500 is right.

However, I have read they were used to pierce the plates, and this I find unlikely.

I have shot much plate in testing various calibers, and speed cuts steel, not big heavy bullets. For example, a 5.45 Russian will commonly dig a deeper hole in plate than will a .375 H&H, as will a 7mmremington Mag. But I have never shot plate with .458 + crowd, except of course for the .50 BMG which is a world unto itself.

Anybody every shot half inch cold rolled plate with a .470?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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500Nitro
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #97861 - 28/02/08 03:37 PM


Anybody every shot half inch cold rolled plate with a .470?


Yes, and it dings it, doesn't go straight through.


I think they were used to knock the plate over as opposed to kill the enemy sniper, and then this left them exposed to
counter fire.


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AkMike
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 500Nitro]
      #97870 - 28/02/08 06:33 PM

That poor sniper must have thought that he was hit with the "Hammer of Thor"..... After his ears stopped ringing.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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9.3x57
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 500Nitro]
      #97892 - 29/02/08 12:46 AM

Quote:


Anybody every shot half inch cold rolled plate with a .470?


Yes, and it dings it, doesn't go straight through.


I think they were used to knock the plate over as opposed to kill the enemy sniper, and then this left them exposed to
counter fire.




500; interesting observation. You are the only one I've ever heard suggest this. You may be right.

I was always bothered by references to piercing the plate because from my shooting of steel with the .375 even at 10 meters {WARNING; DO NOT TRY THIS!!!!!} it just didn't happen.

Also, since the guns didn't remain in service long and since there was no corresponding development of a military round similar to the NE's, I suspect the whole concept, from practical field accuracy to performance was poor and the idea, tho it wounded great, was left to molder among the shell holes of Passchendaele...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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mngane
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #97904 - 29/02/08 04:26 AM

What did Selous succumb to?

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Bramble
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #97905 - 29/02/08 04:33 AM

I have also read that somewhere although I cannot summon it to mind at the moment.

I believe that it corrisponded with the recruitment of Highland stalkers and Ghillies to start the first sniper school. Which is why that burlap ribboned suit they wear is still called a Ghillie suit.

How sucessfull it was we cannot know but I would not wish to be cowering behind the steel plate whilst they tried it out

Regards


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Leonard
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #97906 - 29/02/08 04:42 AM

Dear Colleagues,

My family used to make rifles for Jeffery and my father told me that the ministry conducted a test and one of their rifles pierced a 1/4 inch steel plate. I doubt that the German snipers had 1/2 steel plates. I believe it all started when some officers took their own big bore sporting rifles with them when posted to the front line and found them very effective. I cannot understand why it is engraved as the example would not have had engraving when issued, must have been done later, or maybe it was bought off the general market for trial purposes.

Regards to all

Stewart Leonard


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Bramble
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: Leonard]
      #97907 - 29/02/08 04:50 AM

I was musing about this. Might it have been confiscated during WW1 perhaps in Africa. Perhaps owned by somebody not English. I think the WD did this in various colonies during times of emergency. ??

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John
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: Bramble]
      #97923 - 29/02/08 05:54 AM

The following is from Major H. Hesketh-Prichard's "Sniping in France". This is an excellent book which describes how in the early days of WW I the German snipers dominated the trenches, this resulted in the British creating a sniper school and this basic training is what the majority of modern military sniper training has developed from. Yes, this is where the Ghillie suit first came to be used by snipers.

"We obtained from the old German trenches a number of the large steel plates from behind which the German snipers were wont to shoot, and these I took home with me to England, for I had obtained a week's leave before taking up my new duties.

I preceeded to try on these plates all kind of rifles, from the Jeffreys high velocity .333 to heavy elephant guns of various bores, and was delighted to find that the bullets from the .333, as well as the elephant guns, pierced them like butter. Here, again, Col John Buchan came to my assistance, and obtained for me a fund, to which Lord Haldane, Lord Glenconner and Lord Finley kindly contributed the money, and which enabled me to purchase the necessary rifles. Later on, Mr St. Loe Strachet, the editor of "The Spectator", continued to keep up my fund, which really was of incalculable value to us, and out of which everything from dummy heads purchased at Clarkson's to foot ball jerseys for the splendidly- appointed Sniping School, which finally eventuated, were purchased."

I am not trying to debate what bullet/cartridge would or would not penetrate the steel plates, we do not know the quality of the steel, the thickness or even the ranges. I will try my .470 and 9,3 x74R on some steel and report back.

Ian Skennerton in "The British Sniper" writes:

"Many units purchased their own express rifles privately and there are records of .416 Rigby and other Rigby and Jeffery Nitro Express cartridges been used. RIFLES OF THIS TYPE WHICH WERE PURCHASED THROUGH THE WAR OFFICE WERE MARKED WITH THE BROAD ARROW".

Remember we were at war, no time for special production runs, I am sure the order was "go out and purchase anything that you think will do the job". There was obviously no attempt to standardise on caliber let alone manufacture, action barrel length or engraving or the lack of engraving. These were the days when City's purchased machine guns to give to their local Regiments to give them extra fire power, so purchasing an extra rifle or two from any availably funds, Regimental or donations, was the norm, not the exception. I can just imagine my local town sending a truck down to Colt Canada to pick up a few extra guns to ship to our boys overseas!


John


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: mickey]
      #97945 - 29/02/08 12:54 PM

Quote:

Seems I remember reading something about Holland & Holland building Double rifles for shooting at balloons.




I remember this as well.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: John]
      #97946 - 29/02/08 12:59 PM

Quote:

I preceeded to try on these plates all kind of rifles, from the Jeffreys high velocity .333 to heavy elephant guns of various bores, and was delighted to find that the bullets from the .333, as well as the elephant guns, pierced them like butter. Here, again, Col John Buchan came to my assistance, and obtained for me a fund, to which Lord Haldane, Lord Glenconner and Lord Finley kindly contributed the money, and which enabled me to purchase the necessary rifles. Later on, Mr St. Loe Strachet, the editor of "The Spectator", continued to keep up my fund, which really was of incalculable value to us, and out of which everything from dummy heads purchased at Clarkson's to foot ball jerseys for the splendidly- appointed Sniping School, which finally eventuated, were purchased."





Now that would have been a nice war surplus sale to attend (after the war ended).

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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9.3x57
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: John]
      #97956 - 29/02/08 01:45 PM

I have H-P's book also.

He's the one.

1/4 inch mild steel seems likely, depending on range. I do not believe 1/2 inch hardened plate would be phased one bit by a .470 Nitro at any range. Depending on range, 1/2 inch mild steel maybe.

As for WD use of oddball guns, the Brit military has something of a hoary old tradition of borrowing any'ole shootin iron and did so early in WW1 for the stated reasons, and later at the begnning of WW2 when we were collecting donated guns in barrels at sporting goods stores, along with binoculars and timepieces for shipment to the UK. I've always wondered how many of those altruistically parted-with guns actually made it to Blighty, as opposed to the gun room of the store owners...

Anyway, here's a piece of heavy 3/4 inch thick cold-rolled steel plate shot with a few different rounds. Shot at about 15 meters. The .375 H&H and 7mm Rem Mag noted. This is NOT hardened AP. Railroad fishplates I have shot evaporated these bullets with virtually no dent at all. All of those were old plates, and I am not certain if their toughness was due to previous heat treatment or years of work hardening under the rails. I suspect they were heat treated to a spring temper whih is tougher than cold rolled plate and quite resistant to bullets.

JOHN and any one else reading this: If you have not shot plate before, please be careful. I know the SASS guys shoot it all the time fairly close up, with low velocity lead bullets, and the Silhouetta Metallica fellows shoot it with high velocity jacketed bullets from far away, but high vel jacketed bullets shot on plate up close can be very dangerous. I took a bullet fragment through my right index finger {support hand} a few years ago and a friend took a chunk of a 20mm Lahti round all the way thru his forearm. Stuff pours back from the cratering, can be and is dangerous.





--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Paul
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: Bramble]
      #97970 - 29/02/08 04:19 PM

Quote:

I was musing about this. Might it have been confiscated during WW1 perhaps in Africa. Perhaps owned by somebody not English. I think the WD did this in various colonies during times of emergency. ??




Maybe this stuff went even further. Could the db rifle have been compulsorily acquired from a citizen in Britain?

My father-in-law told that in Australia during WWII even farmers' guns and rifles could be confiscated. Admittedly, his father had been German and this may be a factor. I haven't heard that these sporters were used by the army, though, as he said that even in the 'home-guard' they still had military rifles - albeit M17s. Yet my uncle said the army was so short of rifles in Darwin that two or three soldiers had to share one.


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gryphon
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: Paul]
      #97973 - 29/02/08 05:34 PM

did they load the big bangers with armour piercing rounds or at least metal jackets?

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DarylS
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: Paul]
      #97974 - 29/02/08 05:39 PM

Do be careful shooting plates with high velocity rounds with heavy bullets. Had a buddy who shot himself in the belt buckle with a 300gr. .375, rebounding from a steel plate shot at about 20 feet. The plate was 1/2" thick. I don't know the alloy, but the 300gr. make a lead splash only, no indentation.
; The hit to the stomach made him sick to his stomach & he plopped down on his butt and vomited. He though he'd killed himself - pretty good blow, too - bend the solid buckle into a dish. This guy is 6'5", 240 pounds and certainly not a 'soft' individual.

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Daryl


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #97980 - 29/02/08 10:46 PM

Several years ago we had a member here who was shooting steel plates with a .458 Win. Mag. A bullet came back and went through his guts. He had a long and painful recovery, as chronicled on NE.com. I can't remember his handle, but I sure remember the discussion. Maybe somebody with a better memory than mine can dredge up the old thread.

Curl

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500Nitro
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #97981 - 29/02/08 10:55 PM

Quote:

Do be careful shooting plates with high velocity rounds with heavy bullets. Had a buddy who shot himself in the belt buckle with a 300gr. .375, rebounding from a steel plate shot at about 20 feet.





WTF was he doing shooting it at 20 feet ?


Sorry, Darwin award recipient.


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470evans
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 500Nitro]
      #97983 - 29/02/08 11:28 PM

Not sure this gun was old enough to enjoy WW1. The address on the barrels and serial # puts this as a late 20's to early 30's gun.

Nice looking gun.


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9.3x57
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: gryphon]
      #97986 - 01/03/08 12:32 AM

Quote:

did they load the big bangers with armour piercing rounds or at least metal jackets?




Have never heard of AP in any NE round. FMJ's do not constitute AP and in fact, depending on bullet configuration and other factors, may demonstrate less penetration than soft point rounds in steel plate.

There is, actually, quite a bit of science involved in AP design. The big NE rounds are pretty much losers in that department, possessing bullets of poor type and too low a velocity for excellent performance.

In addition, think back to the operational demands of countersniping in WW1. After the lines went static, the need for highly accurate rifles with optical sights escalated quickly. Much is made in popular chat about opposing lines of trenches being a football pitch or less distance from each other. This was quite true in some areas but many portions of the lines were much farther apart and in many sectors of the Western Front were not even structured trench systems, being more a conglomeration of shell holes, foxholes and slit trenches. And this last bit was by tactical design late in the war with the brilliant German development of "defence-in-depth". Just SEEING the enemy was a very difficult thing to do, and this does not bode well for Express-sighted rifles of any bore.

Early on the Germans got the jump on the British and French in both identifying the need for snipers, the development of sniper teams {commonly made up of Foresters} and, most importantly for countersniper operations, protection of those teams with hard firing points and visual camouflage in the form of non-linear parapet design.

Bottom line is that an Express-sighted "elephant"-caliber double rifle could not have been more poorly designed for digging out the "Hun". It might be cute to imagine an un-named ex-PWH wrapped up in a sheet of brown Hessian with a charcoal smudged face, Wide Awake hat yanked down close over his eyes and leaning over the top of Piccadilly Parapet "Somewhere in Flanders", changing Fritz's opinions of Deutsches Kultur with 500 grains of Kynoch's best at a {guessed} range of "about" 3-and-a-half rugger pitches but if this ever happened it ranked with winning the Washington State Lottery for odds, and multiple hits for winning the Lottery over and over again.

Unlikely.

The subsequent course of sniper rifle development proves it.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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John
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: 9.3x57]
      #97991 - 01/03/08 12:50 AM

Thanks for all the feed back. The warnings for shooting at steel plates are noted, I run a range and have also seen what can happen.

Quote:
As for WD use of oddball guns, the Brit military has something of a hoary old tradition of borrowing any'ole shootin iron and did so early in WW1 for the stated reasons, and later at the begnning of WW2 when we were collecting donated guns in barrels at sporting goods stores, along with binoculars and timepieces for shipment to the UK. I've always wondered how many of those altruistically parted-with guns actually made it to Blighty, as opposed to the gun room of the store owners...

Thank you to all those who gave firearms to the UK durring the start of WW II. My father, as a farmer (Reserved occupation) was in the Home Guard, his first rifle was a very old .303 with a Grenade launcher, then he received a US BAR (Browning Automatic Rifle) he felt very well equipped when he was issued with her. We believe it was a gift from the US. All Home Guard weapons in .300 US, as they called the .30-06, had a red painted stripe round them to identify them from the .303 round. Dad then volunteered for RAF and flew as a flight engineer in Liberator bombers in the Mediterranean theatre before training with pathfinders. I expect that BAR was dumped in the North Sea at the end of WW II along with thousands of other small arms.



I will post some more info from Ian Skennerton later today.

Anyone know where I can start in my search for Jeffery factory records that will relate to this .475 Number 2 ?


John


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John
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Re: WWI Sniper Rifle [Re: John]
      #98010 - 01/03/08 06:01 AM


Thanks to Ian Skennerton for permission to reprint the following from his book "The British Sniper"






Edited by NitroX (17/01/14 05:34 AM)


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