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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: tmskislc]
      #92898 - 29/12/07 02:29 PM

Everyone seems to mistake the mounting of a scope sight on a double rifle as a bad thing! It isn’t a bad thing, but it is done for a different reason or reasons, than it is done on a bolt rifle! This is especially true of the large bore doubles. Nobody thinks twice when mounting a scope on a 460 Wby Mag bolt rifle, which is made for the same purpose as a 470NE double rifle, the hunting of dangerous game. On the 460 Wby Mag the scope is mounted most times permanently, and though it has iron sights sometimes, they are not easily uncovered for use. Nobody bats an eye, when someone walks into tight bush with a wounded Lion, buffalo, or elephant using this scoped rifle. But walk into the open veldt with a double 470NE with a scope mounted, and people look at you like you are crazy.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with mounting a scope on a 470NE double rifle, however, it is done for different reasons than it is for a bolt rifle. On a bolt rifle the scope is the primary sight, and the iron sights are back-up, while the double rifle is mounted with express iron sights as primary, and the scope is mounted for special purposes.

The DGR, properly set up, should have both types of sights on them, but the scopes on both should be mounted on the rifle in quality Quick detach rings, and bases. Besides being a help to those who have bad eyesight, and scope will allow the shooter to thread a shot through a small hole in cover to the vitals of his target for that all important first shot. If he is carrying a double barreled 470NE rifle, and such a situation presents it’s self. The scope can be mounted easily, to make the shot. That is the place where the secondary sight system is a desirable feature. OR, if they happen to drop their double, snapping off a front bead, and are miles from his other rifle, he can simply mount his scope, and continue his stalk.

The idea that, somehow, mounting a scope sight on a brand new double rifle, is comiting some classic sin, is simply close minded, and ignorant, no other way to say it.
To me simply because the double rifle of large chambering is basically designed to keep you from being killed while taking on dangerous game, one should, IMO, take advantage of everything he can to make that rifle as efficient, as is possible! Being able to take one sight off to use a better one for a special purpose, simply makes sense. Following up a wounded Buffalo, with the express sights, is the norm, but what of when the light starts to fail? What, prey tell, is wrong with mounting a light gathering scope so you can see your target better. Or the critical first shot on a dangerous animal like a lion that just happens to be at 100 yds, or is on bait, at twilight. That scope may mean you take your trophy, and avoid a very dangerous follow-up because of a slightly off center first shot!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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tmskislc
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Reged: 25/11/07
Posts: 21
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #92933 - 30/12/07 05:19 AM

I get the feeling that it is a sin to mount a scope on a fine English double and yet perfectly acceptable on a newer version/manufactured double. I would assume that it has to do a lot with cost and value of an original old English rifle, but it is kind of sad that if it is a value to the shooter to add the scope and have the availability of the scope, that it would be a decision based on the type of gun used or the tradition evolved around a certain type or make of rifle. It is kind of funny how we do things as people and hunters and I am as guilty as the rest in falling into tradition and doing what is considered right and wrong for a current situation. My original post was pretty much based on whether or not the .470 NE is too large of a caliber to make a scope useful or not on the rifle. Many large rifles blow up the scopes and make them difficult to use. I also did not want to make my new rifle UGLY as a result of adding the mounts as it really is a beautiful rifle and a pleasure to look at. I really appreciate the great knowledge that this forum has to offer. It has been very informational to me to help with my decisions in an area where I had a complete lack of knowledge prior. I would not use the scope on this double for hunting purposes unless it is needed. I would like to use the double iron sites and have the scope with me as a backup if a situation presents itself. The Chapuis I purchased has the rib cut out in two places and it is drilled for rings so it should be easy to install swivel mounts, but I figure it goes through the same process to install the Claws. I sent an email to JJ at Chaplins to see what options I have, but have not heard back from him as of yet. After receiving all the options, I think I will go forward with adding the Swarovski PVI Illuminated scope to my rifle. I have not heard anything bad as far as this scope blowing up on the big caliber guns thus far. I am hoping to not need to re-regulate the rifle though after adding the scope. I don't know how much it will affect the accuracy once the additional rings are added to the barrels. Does anybody have any experience with this area?

--------------------
"All I ask for is the chance to prove that money can't make me happy"


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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
Posts: 1958
Loc: England
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 4seventy]
      #93013 - 31/12/07 07:14 AM

How necessary is it really to have magnification on a close range DG double? I guess that is a personal decision based on one´s eyesight. I certainly wouldn´t want to make a charge look any bigger than it already was!

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k80
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Reged: 07/05/04
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Loc: San Antonio ,Texas, U.S.A.
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #93582 - 06/01/08 05:44 AM

Lots of us are older and can not see
iron sights well enough. The see through
sights help me. I can put the orange dot
on top of the orange post and know I am
properly alinged. Obvously this is not for target
shooting ; but for quick off hand shooting.
Optics are an important option and when
done correctly should enhance the rifle not
compromise it.

--------------------
Ken
San Antonio

Welcome to South Texas


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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #99524 - 18/03/08 07:32 PM

Quote:

But the pivot isn't anything like as fast or as simple to use as the claw.





I've been thinking about this for a while now and the only way I can make any sense out of the above statement, is that you must be talking about a different pivot system to the EAW pivot mount which I was referring to.
The EAW pivot mount that I use has a small ball ended spring loaded lever which is pushed upward to release the lock mechanism, then the scope is rotated 90 degrees and lifted off the rifle.
Once you are used to it's operation, and have practised a little, the scope comes off super fast.
Quote:

On a large bore double, mounts need to be strong and detachable in less than a couple seconds.



I'm NOT talking 2 seconds or thereabouts for this.
Nowhere near that long!
It takes less than 1 second from when you hit the lever to when the scope is totally clear of the gun.
Putting the scope back on takes a tiny bit longer, between 1 to 1.2 seconds, from scope off the rifle, to back on and lever locked.

Maybe the release system on the pivot mount that you have found to be so slow, is of a different type, one which takes longer to operate?

Honestly, I cannot see how anyone would require a scope to be removed or replaced any faster than the EAW style I have described here, and I rather doubt that any claw mount system is going to be any faster than that type of pivot system.

The EAW system I use may well be a "cheaper" system than the claw mount, but I do not agree that it is slower in operation to any noticable degree.


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escard
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Reged: 24/01/07
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Loc: austria-europe
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 4seventy]
      #99761 - 20/03/08 05:50 PM

my personal opinion is "no scope on doubles above the 450/400 Jeffery"....but if it is a must I would take the lightest-weight quality scope with enough eye-spacing available = leupold....

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JabaliHunter
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Reged: 16/05/07
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Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: k80]
      #99765 - 20/03/08 08:39 PM

I still maintain that magnification is not needed at DG distances on big DRs (or bolts for that matter). Its a close range game, although I accept your point about older eyes.

I would have thought that the Leupold prismatic sight would be an ideal solution for those who have trouble using iron sights. Certainly alot smaller and lighter than a scope, but I don't know how long the eye relief is.


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dnovo
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Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #99777 - 20/03/08 11:17 PM

Quote:

I still maintain that magnification is not needed at DG distances on big DRs (or bolts for that matter). Its a close range game, although I accept your point about older eyes.

I would have thought that the Leupold prismatic sight would be an ideal solution for those who have trouble using iron sights. Certainly alot smaller and lighter than a scope, but I don't know how long the eye relief is.




Bingo! Hand that man a cigar. I am 60 and while I am still a very accurate shooter and shoot at several BPC events at 1000yds with a modern version of one of my original long range Sharps, and shoot 300M CISM with a couple modern rifles, I confess that given age and 'green suit visual modifications' (one to many crashes while wearing a green uniform back a while ago) my eye sight ain't what it was as a lad.

To deal with this, I have a very, very nice Merkel 470 ex-EWA double with a 'red dot' sight retro mounted (so it was done right and properly aligned to the particular rifle) with perfect long eye relief. The sight does not magnify nor should you need that at 'serious' distance. What it does do is provide a very wide and bright FOV with that red dot (which can be adjusted for intensity) right where you want to hit. I have let several others try it and the consensus is that it allows you to bring up the rifle and find you point of aim as fast or even faster than open sights. While not used 'in the heat of battle' (the last time I used it, I killed a charging stack of cinder blocks at the range) I dare say that with a bit of dangerous game trying to make you the trophy, it may be faster to pick up than the open sights.

Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
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Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 4seventy]
      #123347 - 08/01/09 05:56 PM

Quote:



Quote:


But the pivot isn't anything like as fast or as simple to use as the claw.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------





Quote:
I've been thinking about this for a while now and the only way I can make any sense out of the above statement, is that you must be talking about a different pivot system to the EAW pivot mount which I was referring to.
The EAW pivot mount that I use has a small ball ended spring loaded lever which is pushed upward to release the lock mechanism, then the scope is rotated 90 degrees and lifted off the rifle.
Once you are used to it's operation, and have practised a little, the scope comes off super fast.





Here is a clip of the EAW pivot mount which shows just how easy it is to use.
The guy in the video is not trying to do this fast, he's just taking his time demonstrating the system.
If you are in a hurry, the time taken to remove the scope can be about half what is shown here.

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=Jd7RcBpbcK0


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Der_Jaeger
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Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: 4seventy]
      #123358 - 08/01/09 10:55 PM


Anything that improves our eyesight in the field should be regarded as a good thing. If the rifle fits properly, the gun can be mounted and, with both eyes open, the scope of low power should be as fast and more accurate, as open sights. I agree that the scope should also be mounted in high quality QD rings in case the scope should suffer any damage and a quick resolution needs to be executed.

--------------------


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SharpsNitro
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Reged: 12/08/08
Posts: 729
Loc: Arizona, USA
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: dnovo]
      #123410 - 09/01/09 08:22 AM

One of these little gems on a custom QD mount would be ideal for a DR (in my opinion). I've been looking at one for a DR project I am getting ready to start.

http://www.aimpoint.com/products/aimpoint_product_lines/aimpoint_micro_t-1


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gei
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Reged: 19/03/06
Posts: 23
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #124297 - 17/01/09 09:09 AM

Last time I went to Africa, I had un scoped 470 NE and scoped 375 HH, next time I will have scoped 470 for a 1 gun safari. I have claw mounts on 470 and the pivot on Chap 9.3. I think either would work on 470.
Just my opinion


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grandveneur
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Reged: 21/09/08
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Loc: France / Germany
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: tmskislc]
      #124306 - 17/01/09 11:07 AM

Never scopes on big doubles! When you need scopes use bolt action rifles!

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: grandveneur]
      #124376 - 18/01/09 06:11 AM

400, I agree, it's only dangerous if it can get to you, SO if its 70 yds away or more
use your .375 double with a QD scope for accuracy, and if thats your only rifle take the scope off it it goes pear shaped and you have to follow up. The .470 or .500 should never have a scope, its
the rifle you use when its all gone wrong and you are shooting close up, just my opinion, and I haven't shot a buff or elephant so what do I know ?? BUT thats what I'd do, Mike


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #124925 - 23/01/09 08:41 AM

Gentlemen, you have things backwards! The scope on a "BIG" bore double is the sencondary sight, and is a special purpose sight. The rifle is carried with Iron sights, and the scope seperately. When the scope in needed for a long or difficult shot, the scope is attached. I don't know where the idea came from that a double rifle is only a short range rifle. It is quite common to be miles from your hunting vehicle, and your plains game rifle tracking a herd of Buffalo, and spot a Kudu of a life time, at 150-200 yds while carrying a 400- or 470NE double rifle. If you have the scope in your bag, it can be attached and that shot made quite eaisly. There is absolutely no reason a 470 cannot be as accurate as any other large bore rifle with a properly zeroed scope sight, and a shooter who knows his rifle. However if the shooter's eyesight is bad, the scope can be his primary sight as well, but that is not the only legitimate reason to have a scope available on any dangerous game rifle, regardless of type.

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Der_Jaeger
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Reged: 09/10/08
Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #124926 - 23/01/09 09:03 AM


I would also think a good quality low power scope can help one pick out a target in heavy cover much, much, better than open sights....even at short range.

A low power scope on a properly fitted gun should be a benefit and should be as fast or faster in target acquisition and provide better visual acuity. The crosshairs will also draw the eye to the target much quicker than trying to set up the rear sight, front sight, and the animal intent on winning the fight.

For me, I'd want a scope in detachable mounts and, if it gets damaged, I can take it off and still manage with open sights. Better still, have a back-up scope handy.

Practice mounting a properly fitted rifle with a scope while keeping both eyes open and you'll see what I mean.

There are many options and philosophies, but this would be my preference.

--------------------


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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: Der_Jaeger]
      #124931 - 23/01/09 10:46 AM

Jerry, all reasons are legitimate reasons,as long as the scope is properly installed. Installing a scope in QD rings & bases is not as simple as it is on a single shot, or bolt rifle. There are dynamics that must be addressed when mounting a scope on a side by side double rifle, that don't exist with the single shot,single barreled break top single shot, or bolt rifle. the single barrel rifle only recoils up, and back! Not so with a S/S double rifle!

Many order their double rifle regulated with the scope of their choice, without understanding the dynamics of the S/S double rifle's regulation! First the S/S double rifle absolutely must be regulated with the iron sights! Then the scope must be chosen with extreme care! By this I mean the weight of the scope and all mounting hardware must be as light as in possible, while still being strong. The QD bases, and rings must return to zero absolutely! The scope must be mounted as low as is possible as well so that the mounting of the rifle comes as close as is possible to the same mounting for the iron sights. All this may sound silly to most people, and even most gunsmiths. This is because they do not understand the reasons these things must happen.

The side by side double rifle without the scope attached recoils up,back, and to the right when the right barrel is fired. The opposite happens when the left barrel is fired. The single barrel rifle doesn't do this, so the scope must be very carefully selected, and mounted by a smith who understands this! The weight of the scope & mounting hardware drriectly effects the UP, and back motion of the rifle, as it does on a single barrel rifle. But that weight, and how "HIGH" you mount the scope negatively effects the rifle's ability to "Flip" to the right for the right barrel, and to the left for the left barrel, thus effecting the position of the muzzles of each of those muzzles when the bullet exits the muzzle of that barrel. The heavier, and the higher you mount the scope, the more it will effect the regulation dynamics of the rifle! The little thing called BARREL TIME's bullet exit, is either lengthened, or shortened by the reduction or addtion of weight on the barrel set!

So to add a scope to a double rifle, everything included must be as light as is posible, and mounted as low as is possible, to work properly. The very best for the person needs the scope because of eye sight, is a 1X scope with a German post reticle, with an illuminated tip! This way he can shoot with both eyes open, for fast action, and close on eye for pin point accuracy!

Still, properly done, there is no more reason not to mount a scope on a S/S double rifle than there is aa single barrel rifle, but it absolutely must be done by a man who knows what he is doing when it comes to the S/S double rifle, and the more recoil it has, the more carefully it has to be done! Let me say here, IMO, if one wants to mount a scope on a between the wars, Britt double rifle, then it needs to be done by the same company that made the rifle, and documented as Factory done, if the collector value is to remain intact! COOOSTLY

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Der_Jaeger
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Posts: 607
Loc: SE Pennsylvania
Re: Scoping a .470 NE? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #124968 - 23/01/09 11:20 PM

Quote:

Jerry, all reasons are legitimate reasons,as long as the scope is properly installed. Installing a scope in QD rings & bases is not as simple as it is on a single shot, or bolt rifle. There are dynamics that must be addressed when mounting a scope on a side by side double rifle, that don't exist with the single shot,single barreled break top single shot, or bolt rifle. the single barrel rifle only recoils up, and back! Not so with a S/S double rifle!





Great points all around and I agree on all counts. You're right about the differing dynamics involved in the way doubles recoil vs. single barrels and also about the load stresses placed on anything mounted on top that is going for the ride. The height and weight of the bases, rings, and scope also play a significant role in single barrels, but there is only one recoil dynamic that a single barrel imposes on mounted hardware verses two for the double rifle. Good points. I didn't look at it that way and I certainly should have. Heavier hardware, especially when mounted higher, will resist the movement of the recoiling rifle more so than lighter weight material. The heavier the scope and mounts, the more it'll want to stay stationary as the rifle begins to move backward and therefore imposes more stress on anything mounted to the barrels.

With the greater attention to mounting the scope on a double, as you pointed out, and making sure that it's carried out with utmost precision, I would still vote for having a scope available for a double. Following your advice and sending it back to the maker will cost a heck of a lot more money, but should be worth the effort.

Thank you for your well thought out response

--------------------


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