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93mouse
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Target for zeroing with open sights
      #90780 - 06/12/07 11:04 PM

In African hunter magazine (Vol.11 No. 1) Ganyana speaks about zeroing the rifles and there is a "Tin hat" target for open sights:



Anybody tried that one yet? What is your popular target for the purpose?

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hoppdoc
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 93mouse]
      #90787 - 07/12/07 12:29 AM

Interesting!!

Looks like a great target for Double practice at 25,50, and 100yds!!

As stated earlier I would prefer the shot hit what's covered by the bead instaed of above it.The rifle may have different tendencies however.

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Marrakai
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: hoppdoc]
      #90849 - 07/12/07 03:29 PM

Standard 50m pistol target works for me. I have a large supply of once-used targets in that configuration. Eight-inch black bull on white background, how can you beat that?

Also, it is the regulation target for most events in 'big game rifle' competition in Australia at least.

...and I agree with you, hoppe, I want the bullet to strike right under the center of the bead.

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
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DarylS
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: Marrakai]
      #90893 - 08/12/07 03:46 AM

I use a standard 100 yard target with about an 8" black. This works just fine with most post-type iron sights, and for 200 and 300 yards, I use the appropriate full-bore match targets with correspondingly larger black centres. This allows me two groups on each target, holding centre for the first and 6'o'clock for the second. You must note the group for the 6 o'clock hold will centre below the bull due to the white line between bull and post, or whereever and however you hold.
; For sighting using beads, I use the 200 yard target for 100 yards and 300 yard target for 200. I sight beads to hit in the middle of the bead. When holding a bead 6 o'clock, the centre of impact will be well below the black due to the centre of the bead being well below the black - all dependent on where and how the rifle is sighted, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: DarylS]
      #90973 - 09/12/07 01:19 AM

93: The "Tin Hat" is an old British Army target, used in competition for pistol & rifle shooting. Colors of the British Army target were black and sand/khaki, also IIRC. It is supposed to represent, roughly, a soon-to-be unfortunate fellow peeking over the top of a trench. Thus, you know after which Bruhaha the target became popular.

I have used it extensively with pistol, making up copies on typing paper using a copy machine. The flat surface of the bottom works pretty well when mated with the flat top of most modern pistol sights. The roundish top of the old semi-circular front sights on S&W service revolvers is a bit more challenging but the target is a good one none-the-less.

You question is an excellent one.

Regardless of what target you use to zero {I have several I can post pictures of if you like} check final zero from a field shooting position on a non-distinct, asymmetrical target. You may be surprised to find the zero you used on the bench on a round target shifts a bit on a target such as the Norwegian reinsdyrblinker, an excellent practice target and one used for the annual shooting test required to obtain a hunting license in Norway. Using the same concept I've designed several of my own, and they make for a much better practice target in my opinion than round "Bullseye" targets. I haven't seen many game animals sporting Bullseyes!

This is quite an interesting topic, and if you look at the test targets that accompany various rifles and of course those used in military production testing you'll find quite a variety.

Right now, I'm discussing with the Idaho Fish and Game Department the design and adoption by them for use in the Hunter Safety Program of a target incorporating the asymmetrical, non-distinct aiming properties of the Norwegian government hunting target. With nothing to draw the eye to a "center" it forces the placement of the sights as they must be placed in the field and as a result is an excellent teaching aid.

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JPK
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #90974 - 09/12/07 01:36 AM

I find that either a round bull or a round bull with a white or red 2" center works well.

For a solid black round bull, I use a 6 O'clock hold. For the off color 2" bull within a bull, I hold for center. The I get a second crack at the same target using a 6:00 hold too.

I try a 12:00 hold to save changing paper but this is difficult at 50yds, not much trouble at, say, 25yds.

9:00 and 3:00 holds also work ok if you don't feel like heading down range, but they are not consitent for elevation.

With regard to wandering POI, I have found that a round bead is often the problem since the apparent center of the bead will shift with light. You will favor the side with more light, not realizing that the portion of the bead in shadow is even there. Filing the bead so that there is a flat facet facing your eye, with a bevel running from closest to the breach at the low point of the bead closest to the muzzles at the high side of the bead will give you greatest contrast for the bead and works great for hunting.

JPK

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9.3x57
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: JPK]
      #90976 - 09/12/07 02:09 AM

Quote:

With regard to wandering POI, I have found that a round bead is often the problem since the apparent center of the bead will shift with light. You will favor the side with more light, not realizing that the portion of the bead in shadow is even there. Filing the bead so that there is a flat facet facing your eye, with a bevel running from closest to the breach at the low point of the bead closest to the muzzles at the high side of the bead will give you greatest contrast for the bead and works great for hunting.

JPK



You are quite right about beads and wandering POI.

I wasn't referring to that issue as I do not use beads, for exactly the reason you mention.

What I am referring to is that a rifle zeroed on the bench, particularly a two-piece stocked rifle using traditional benchrest hold {but I've seen it with Mausers, etc, too}, can sometimes shoot differently from a field position. This can be mitigated somewhat by using a two-handed hold on the bench with support hand preventing contact with the front bag, but even so it is good SOP to check zero from sitting, standing, etc to make sure the gun shoots where it will be held in the field.

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Marrakai
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91046 - 09/12/07 01:45 PM

IMHO a lot of nonsense has been written about this 'wandering POI' supposedly caused by a round bead fore-sight, and I believe the furphy was probably started by paper-punchers rather than hunters. The Brits made virtually all their double rifles with a gold or platinum bead during the 'hey-day', and for very good reason. Because it is round, it will almost always catch light from some angle, except directly in front where the silhouette profile is relied upon.

Look, do the math. A typical large gold or platinum front bead is around 80 thou in diameter (many are smaller). If the side-light is reflecting off one half of the bead, leaving the other half in shadow, the center of the bead may appear to be 20 thou to one side of its actual position. Given a 20-inch sight radius, which would be typical of a DR, the bullet will strike 1.8 inches to one side of the POI at 50 yds. Negligible! This is still only 3.6 inches off-line at 100 yds. Even the best shot in the world will not hold his group to significantly less than 3.6 inches at 100 yds with open express sights under field conditions. Any animal shot at with a large bead-sighted DR at 100 yds is going to have a 12 to 20 inch boiler-room, so what's the problem?

Most of my DRs have gold bead fore-sights, and I love 'em. Wouldn't alter them if you paid me!

(...with apologies to Gerald Burrard, who is the first author I can find to advocate the flat-face bead, although like JPK above, he specified that it be sloping forward to catch sky-light, and undercut to throw the stem into shadow.)

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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Bill_Cooley
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91047 - 09/12/07 01:57 PM

JPK,
I would think the 12:00 hold would be quite difficult because you would have a hard time seeing when you are breaking out of the bull into the white. That is why I like a 6:00 hold as you can readily see the edge of the black and it is easier to set the black on top the bead. You adjust the impact point of the group to suit your personal preferences as the black is only an aiming point.
Bill

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9.3x57
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #91054 - 09/12/07 02:22 PM

If round bulls present a problem with bead sights, try an "arrow" with the point going down. Another and similar target is the "anchor", a "V" with or without a crosshair at the bottom. Seems to work pretty well with bead or post front sight, as there is lots of white visible on either side of the point, making it easier to hold the front side identically from shot to shot and the top of the bead {or post} the same also.

Marrakai, I don't think the issue with beads is so much an issue of mathematical inaccuracy or something of that sort. Basically, I think it's just that they are more difficult for some people to see well. If the sights are held the same from shot to shot, the group obviously will be good. I suspect it mostly has to do with the vagueness or lack of definition that lots of people see when looking at a circle for a front sight, glare or not. Granted, glare exacerbates the problem I suppose. I can't say for sure because I don't know what others see exactly when they break the trigger. It seems to make sense to me that glare plus the vagueness of a circle makes for difficulty holding the sight the same from shot to shot.

Thus, the rarity of bead sights for use in competitive target shooting, rifle or pistol, speed shooting or not. Right here on this post we see various and sundry holds with beads, a variety that begs the question why there is such variety of hold if it is not to defeat a handicap of sorts presented by a bead. With a post, you hold even with the square top of the rear sight {NO BUCKHORNS!! } and place the whole mess where you want the bullet to go and yank the trigger. want to hit the center of the round bull.put the top of the front sight there. Want to hit six o'clock, ditto.

Everybody has their preferences to be sure but the vast majority of competitive shooters both civilian and military have long ago dumped the bead in favor of more easily seen {and held} front sights.

I guess my question is why some prefer a bead? If the answer is that they like them, they are used to them and they work for them, that's good enough for me.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Marrakai
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91065 - 09/12/07 04:50 PM

I reckon you may have hit the nail on the head, 9ThreeXFifty7. Paper-punchers can't stand the bead fore-sight. Unfortunately most DR shooters these days, even those who would refer to themselves as avid hunters rather than target shooters, fire the vast majority of their shots at paper. This influences their choice of sights etc for the limited hunting they do (couple of shots during each deer and elk season, a safari or three per lifetime), but those who fire their doubles mostly at game (as in the 'heyday' of the DR a century ago) are probably quite happy with the gold or platinum bead.

...which is why such a high percentage of working doubles for Africa or India were fitted with them.

Having said that, I certainly agree that what works best for a shooter is what he should go with, but if accuracy were the only criterion, the end-point would be every DR fitted with a scope and laser!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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9.3x57
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: Marrakai]
      #91078 - 10/12/07 01:19 AM

Marrakai, I accept that your critique might apply right at this instant to me and my rifles, range and the game you identify {discounting small varmints which I shoot a large amount per year with rifle, scoped and open-sighted, and iron-sighted pistol and where I find a bead of any sort a severe handicap}, but it doesn't apply to those I know quite closely who literally live or die by their guns, that is, those shooting truly dangerous game with them. Our service personnel.

And not just ours. No Army has gravitated to beads over the years and for good reason. To the contrary.

Are you saying that the precision and speed needed to shoot pigs and buffalo exceeds the precision and speed needed to shoot armed men? I beg to differ. Before anyone says that the Armies of the world are run by bureaucratic morons who punch paper and nothing else and who don't know a rifle from a crowbar, I might make the point that though that may be true in some instances, the final nail is being driven into the coffin of this whole discussion right now by large numbers of our own military who due to changing acquisition rules are able to play with, use and purchase equipment without going through the hobgoblin of standardization regulations that used to hamstring development of better "tools". Sighting systems, both iron and glass, have become something of an obsession, and though some companies produce them and you can find them for sale, V/Beads or bead fronts are essentially nowhere to be found in service.

Maybe it's because our fellows live in cubicles and have never heard of them... Or maybe because they shoot too much paper... Or maybe they shoot "target rifles" and don't understand "hunting rifles"... Or maybe their rifles don't kick enough...

I'm not one that believes that all things progress from crudity to perfection in the shooting world, but the truth is the V/Bead has been left behind not by paper punchers but by those whose lives truly depend on little bits of metal that sit on the tops of their guns and those folks are, in sheer numbers, many more than hunt big game in Africa or Australia. For those that can do anything about it, the open rear of any sort is a handicap and it is gone. That is partly due to a physiological reality; the human eye cannot focus on three planes at once. Granted, some rifles cannot be fitted with peep sights for a variety of reasons and thus we discuss open sights.

I've heard the argument put forth that the rear sight isn't actually used on a double if the double fits a man properly. That argument serves to make my point for me. If the gun serves the purpose of the sight it doesn't prove the value of the sight at all.

Next, that is, now, we see the last breath of the iron sight itself. I recently read a Lessons Learned report examining changed attitudes {based on shooting men, not paper} even within the organization of the US Marines who were the last to swear by iron sights in the US military. Just like the peep and post before it, the "scope" has won now over the peep and post.

Yes, the V/Bead was overtaken by sights more effective FOR MORE PEOPLE for both speed and precision shooting. And now irons of any sort are being overtaken by glass.

Look, I really do not mean to gore anybody's ox {or banteng} and I seriously do not mean to criticize anyone's favorite sight, particularly someone with your experience. I also grant that certain sights for traditional reasons or personal preference or both have become well-established in certain circles. For example, taking the beef away from V/Beads for a moment, I have read old accounts of "gun gurus" of the early 1900's who espoused the Buckhorn for general hunting and who did good work with it, but I think we would both agree to leave that one behind.

But to argue, for example, that the V/Bead is the best sight for the most people is an argument swimming upstream with its legs tied. It might have certain advantages for certain people who really and truly find it the best for them, and under the pressure of tradition it might suffice for others, but for speed and precision shooting of paper and living, moving things, it cannot be said to be a sure bet for most.

History has spoken, and now I'll stop.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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peter
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91085 - 10/12/07 04:06 AM

9,3

i think that your points are interesting but also a bit off target, service weapon were never the top of the food chain because they are allways massproduced, making a bead takes a lot longer than a post.
therefore are posts the order of the day when military rifles are made, thats not because they are the best but they are the best in the cheap department.

peep and post are a bit better, but no where near as good as peep wiht a cross or a T front but these fronts cost money so peep with post it is, or you can go out and buy it yourself.

money talks as allways.

the other part is about training, since a lot of people get there training in the army or the first gun is a surplus army gun, then people train with the cheap sights and get used to that sight picture alot before they get the money for the nice guns with the bead sights, and find them akward.

if you look at a lot of the early post sights most of them are filed into a point so they only need the bead to be right. and then they evolved into the square post.....not better but easy to make in a factory.

i dont mind normal target sights when i shoot bullseye contests, but when it is at shapes other than the round bull i go back to the bead and vee.

just my opinion.

peter

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9.3x57
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: peter]
      #91115 - 10/12/07 09:18 AM

Hej Peter:

I have no idea what is going on in the Danish Army, but the units I referred to in my post have funds and access to essentially anything they want along the line of sights. In the US military, money for sights, sighting systems and scopes has been flowing like water for some years now and believe me, if it works they would use it. And there is a vast amount of experimentation going on. Use of anything like the V/Bead is virtually nonexistent.

Most of the critters I shoot are small but many are shot with iron sights. For example, for forest management reasons I keep track of varmints shot in a 75 acre pine plantation on my ranch here. From 1 April to 23 July '07 I shot 186 on that piece alone. The prior year on the same piece of ground I shot 111 {they aren't going away, are they...} I do not know what the total number of critters I shoot per year elsewhere is because I do not keep track but the total number is some hundreds and many, due to the fact that I am doing other jobs at the time I see them, are shot with a pistol. Some with iron-sighted rifle and of course many with scoped rifle when I am actually hunting them. I admit I am in the big crowd that doesn't use beads. I've tried beads and they don't work for me on small, moving or partially hidden varmints, on butcher stock or for that matter on the few deer and elk I shoot.

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What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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DarylS
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91120 - 10/12/07 09:47 AM

Over the course of my fairly long time (48 years) with shooting animals with irons sights, I've come to prefer a wide V and small bead for small targets and a larger bead for big game. I didn't discover this type of sighting for myself, until 1986 and I have preferred it ever since.
: A peep with ivory bead works well for bush country hunting. Rear V, square and U notch sights with posts are common on the offhand rifles I've used a lot, as in muzzleloading rifles, but I've come to prefer a wide V due to my aging eye sight. The narrow V, U and square notches fuzz badly for me to see easily and therefore my preference to the wide V. It's top surface fuzzes much less and the bead settles into the bottom nicley, giving good definition. The bead is sharp. I've been able to consistantly shoot into 1-1/2" with a round ball rifle with this sight system at 100 meters, 5 shot groups, so the sights work - for me at least. With the same type of sights, my bro has shot 3 1/2" offhand groups at 100 meters for 5 shots using a .50 cal longrifle of his manufacture, so they work for him too. His current hunting rifle, a .60 cal. 'Steutzen' Rifle also has a wide V and bead front sight. Seems people who give these Express-type sights a good test, like them. I've used them all, and the Express Sights work the best for me. These are the sights that allowed me to pull off 1/2" benched groups at 50 meters with my current longrifle in .40 cal. as well as with it's spare .45 barrel. Recently, I tested a square notch rear sight with a post front sight and the groups opened to 1" and 1-1/2" with both elevation and windage flyers for at least 2 shots per group. This isn't good enough as this is also my chunk gun for the coming season. If it won't hold 1/2", it's not good enough and only the wide V and bead give that to me.
: In my opinion, both our militaries have never used this type of sights as they aren't tough enough for a battle gun - certianly the front peep would be suseptable to damage. Mass produced peeps with protected posts of major size makes more sense for select fire guns. Too, I'll bet they've never tried Express sights. Along with this, a peep and post are much easier to teach non-shooters to use and the peep with either post or bead is more accurate yet, than any notched sight. This is also why peeps are not allowed in the BP matches I attend - esily aligned rear sight - it's automatic. I've used my AJ Parker rear aperature sight with both posts and aperatures up front on my match rifle and with good light conditions for the post, both are 1/2" to 1" groupers at 100 meters, shot prone. The front aperature is the most accurate, which is why many silhouete BP shooters use them for their animal targets, even though the animals are far from round.
: The Express Sight is back on my longrifle - it's accurate, easy to see and makes me competitive, whereas the notch sights are too difficult to see.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: Marrakai]
      #91122 - 10/12/07 11:11 AM

Quote:

IMHO a lot of nonsense has been written about this 'wandering POI' supposedly caused by a round bead fore-sight, and I believe the furphy was probably started by paper-punchers rather than hunters.



I couldn't agree more. I've never had that problem with a bead that is correctly made, but most of the current stuff isn't.

Look at the sight under number 2 of 93Mouse's "Merkel Open Sights" string. The bead sticks out from the stem by, what, maybe 1/8"? It shouldn't be more than a couple thou. And the face of the bead is round. That kind of bead gives me fits - glare from the sides of the bead and sidelights from the round face - no wonder some have trouble with them. Filed flat and angled slightly upward and the sides painted out with flat black would improve it a lot. A platinum bead that lies flat on the stem and is angled slightly upward is easy to see in poor light and doesn't suffer from glare and sidelights in good lighting conditions, and the perceived center does not shift.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bill Cooley:

I would think the 12:00 hold would be quite difficult because you would have a hard time seeing when your are breaking out of the bull into the white.



That might be true with some target designs, but that's easily corrected with a different target, and it isn't true at all with game. It's also true with a bead that is uselessly large, which is why I won't use anything over .080".

I much prefer for a hunting rifle to put the bullet center bead. Especially on moving game, I find it much easier to just swing the bead through the spot I want the bullet to go than doing the same while trying to maintain a 6 o'clock hold. For snap shooting, I also find it faster to just stick the bead on the spot I want to hit, rather than screwing with some silly 6 o'clock hold.

Quote:

Originally posted by 9.3X57:

No Army has gravitated to beads over the years and for good reason.



Again, that has absolutely nothing to do with hunting rifles, neither does competition target shooting. Battle sights are not hunting sights and never have been. Battle sights are not what's "needed" for a military purpose, they're what's cheap and procurable, with durability and function not even a distant last place. Anybody that thinks otherwise is pulling the cork a too often. Thank God I've never had to rely on military designs for hunting purposes!

Pistol sights (square notch and flat top post) have no place on a hunting rifle. They don't have the precision and disappear in failing light long before a good express design does.

Quote:

Originally posted by 9.3X57:

Yes, the V/Bead was overtaken by sights more effective FOR MORE PEOPLE for both speed and precision shooting.



What ineffable twaddle. That certainly is not true for those not constrained by a military straight-jacket. You don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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DarylS
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #91124 - 10/12/07 11:48 AM

.400 NE has brought up some points I guess I should have made clear in my earlier posts. My beads measure 1/16" or a bit finer on my hunting rifles. They are round only in profile, with a flat face, angled slightly, which catches light across it's entire face, not on the sides. They have a sharp edge all the way around. If there's enough light to see open sights, the front sight gleams round from the avilable light. It is quite evident that good scopes allow shooting later and earlier than do irons, but then, this is about iron sights. At rendezvous, guys with silver blades are the ones complaining of having point of impact shifts dependent on the angle of the sun, and asking if anyone has a felt pen handy.
: To have a rifle sighted for a 6 o'clock hold - is that on a 6" bull, 8" or whatever. To hold a 1/16" bead at 6 o'clock, the centre of that bead is going to be several inches below the bottom of the bull, maybe 3" or maybe 4", depending on how much light you have to see. To be sure of a 6 o'clock hold, one must see about 1" of light between the bead and the bull, otherwise the bead creeps up into the bull. For a centre-bull hit to happen, the bullet will be striking 1/2 the diameter of the bull above the 'light' which is above the bead. That puts it at least 6" to 8" above the centre of the bead. On a running shot, or quick shot at an animal at 100 yards, be it a deer or similar sized animal, the bullet is already striking 6" to 8" high, which means a miss over the centre of a deer having a 12" kill zone. Put the deer or pig whatever out at 150 yards, with a bit of a drop inbetween the hunter and game, and the bullet is now 10" or more abouve the bead and several above the animal. Where do you hold, as instinct tells you to put the bead on the animal. Only by luck will it be hit, therefore having the centre of the bead being point of impact only makes sense. the small bead doesn't cover all the target one might think. Huge beads put on model 94 wincheters need to be replaced. With a file and a bit of skill, one can change their mickey-mouse rear U notch into a wide shallow V and replace the front sight with a small ivory bead. Now, you have a hunting sight that works close in, or for that 200 yard shot across the meadow or 'park' as guys south of the border are wont to call them. I have just such sights on my 1978 XTR Big Bore 94 .375. That rifle, with those sights will put 3 fst conseutive shots into 1-1/2" at 100 meters. Good enough for me, and for the 2 moose I shot with it back in the early 80's. Both were 95 to 100 meters away, and both shots were snap shots, fired fast, as only these sights will allow. I tried a Williams Aperature and quickly took it off, puttin the V back on.
; Raising one notch on the elevator gives me a 200 meter zero. It's fast, and repeatable. could it be better - not likely - but I'm open to suggestions.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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9.3x57
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: DarylS]
      #91127 - 10/12/07 12:26 PM

Daryl:

You make some great points {as usual} and I do respect your opinion and Marrakai's and the opinions of several others I may yet disagree with on this post. Some, naturally, I don't.

Yes, it IS easier to teach the use of the peep/post, because it is an easier sighting system for most people to use which is of course my whole point. That is why it exists in speed and precision rifle competitions the world over, and why V/Beads don't.

One thing I might add, however, is that at least one army did indeed extensively test the wide V/Bead. The British did, I suppose because their commercial makers were the originators of the V/Bead sighting system and due to its popularity at the time it was tested. From 1900-1902 it was run through a program of troop trials and found lacking for long range, rapid fire and snap-shooting. It was damned for lack of performance, not for lack of sturdiness. The source for this is Major EGB Reynolds in the arms classic, "The Lee-Enfield Rifle". He may have been a cork-popper, I don't know, but I do know he was a world record holder in the Dewar Match {against USA, Canada, South Africa and Australia}, was a Technical Officer Inspectorate of Armaments, British Army and won many other shooting medals as well. All of those things are may be strikes against him though, at least according to the fellow who followed your post.

I do believe good work can be done with a wide V/Bead, but it takes a lot of practice, practice I believe produces quicker and better results if applied to a different sighting system. That is my opinion and as I've stated, it is the opinion of a lot of other people as well.

--------------------
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91134 - 10/12/07 01:38 PM

"Given a 20-inch sight radius, which would be typical of a DR, the bullet will strike 1.8 inches to one side of the POI at 50 yds. Negligible!"

Marraki,

Your post, quoted above, mirrors the POI change that I have experienced. While you don't seem to think ~2" is much, I don't see the need to live with it since, given the same rifle and its given accuracy, you can eliminate the ~2" wandering POI by simply filing your bead. And when you do that, you will discover that the filed bead catches a heck of a lot more light and appears much larger for it, while still attneuating the smaller amount of target that the bead should.

JPK

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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: JPK]
      #91136 - 10/12/07 01:51 PM

"And the face of the bead is round. That kind of bead gives me fits - glare from the sides of the bead and sidelights from the round face - no wonder some have trouble with them. Filed flat and angled slightly upward and the sides painted out with flat black would improve it a lot. A platinum bead that lies flat on the stem and is angled slightly upward is easy to see in poor light and doesn't suffer from glare and sidelights in good lighting conditions, and the perceived center does not shift."

This is 400 Nirto Expresses quote. I couldn't agree more.

Marraki,

You should take note of this. And it is easily acheivable with the basic brass bead, just file it and poilish it and you'll find your rifles shoot better.

JPK

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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: JPK]
      #91139 - 10/12/07 02:00 PM

Very interesting JPK.

I didn't say it before, but on the little buggers I shoot most, a shot falling off 2" at 50 yards would cost me the whole critter.

Another man's opinion follows. Admittedly it is only the opinion of one man, but I must say I agree with him. He only spent a short time in uniform as I recall, but he did shoot a bit of African game. I don't think he was a cork popper, but if he was, I wish I'd been there to pop a cork with him:

"THE TRADITIONAL OPEN V BACKSIGHT IS A SECOND-RATE CHOICE, FIT ONLY TO SERVE AS AN EMERGENCY STAND-BY. THE 'GHOST RING' APERTURE (JEFF COOPER'S DESCRIPTION) IS VASTLY SUPERIOR UNDER ALL CONDITIONS, FOR ANY PURPOSE WHATSOEVER." Finn Aagaard, American Rifleman, March 1984, page 76.

This fellow's opinion might be a little unclear to some, but to me, even with a cork popped, it's pretty easy to understand.

Uff da, og nordmann også!

Cork poppers unite!!

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: Bill_Cooley]
      #91140 - 10/12/07 02:03 PM

Quote:

JPK,
I would think the 12:00 hold would be quite difficult because you would have a hard time seeing when you are breaking out of the bull into the white. That is why I like a 6:00 hold as you can readily see the edge of the black and it is easier to set the black on top the bead. You adjust the impact point of the group to suit your personal preferences as the black is only an aiming point.
Bill



Bill,

A 12:00 hold isn't as reliable as a 6:00 hold for finding groups, no doubt. But to save the walk down range or to keep shooting on a hot range when your target looks like swiss cheese, it ain't all bad. So long as your bead isn't too large, the difference in circumferences is obvious enough to still shoot a good group.

JPK

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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91142 - 10/12/07 02:17 PM

Quote:

Very interesting JPK.

I didn't say it before, but on the little buggers I shoot most, a shot falling off 2" at 50 yards would cost me the whole critter.

Another man's opinion follows. Admittedly it is only the opinion of one man, but I must say I agree with him. He only spent a short time in uniform as I recall, but he did shoot a bit of African game. I don't think he was a cork popper, but if he was, I wish I'd been there to pop a cork with him:

"THE TRADITIONAL OPEN V BACKSIGHT IS A SECOND-RATE CHOICE, FIT ONLY TO SERVE AS AN EMERGENCY STAND-BY. THE 'GHOST RING' APERTURE (JEFF COOPER'S DESCRIPTION) IS VASTLY SUPERIOR UNDER ALL CONDITIONS, FOR ANY PURPOSE WHATSOEVER." Finn Aagaard, American Rifleman, March 1984, page 76.

This fellow's opinion might be a little unclear to some, but to me, even with a cork popped, it's pretty easy to understand.

Uff da, og nordmann også!

Cork poppers unite!!



I would agree except that I find that a proper express sight is prefect for big dangerous game. No need for more than 50yds, or even 50yds. So, in my experience, what you gain in accuracy with an apperature, you loose in perspective since you limit your overall view. This is an issue, especially with elephants. The one that wants to kill you isn't the one you just killed!

Give me an apperature and give me whitetails or whatever here at home. But give me the open view and open perspective for big dangerous game, and so give me an express sifght - but file the friggin' bead!!! No need to live with ~2" built in error depending on the time of day. No reason to live with a huge subtending bead when a good filed, and so bright, bead will do in the dimmest of light.

JPK

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Ripp
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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: 9.3x57]
      #91143 - 10/12/07 02:24 PM

Quote:

Very interesting JPK.

"THE TRADITIONAL OPEN V BACKSIGHT IS A SECOND-RATE CHOICE, FIT ONLY TO SERVE AS AN EMERGENCY STAND-BY. THE 'GHOST RING' APERTURE (JEFF COOPER'S DESCRIPTION) IS VASTLY SUPERIOR UNDER ALL CONDITIONS, FOR ANY PURPOSE WHATSOEVER." Finn Aagaard, American Rifleman, March 1984, page 76.






I agree with you totally as to the Ghost ring--I would think it would be pretty clear after the military using it as standard equipement on the M-16 for the past 50 years there must be something to it.. On Jeff Cooper, as shown above, he was a huge advocate of this type of sighting system... IMHO, you really can't argue with his experience and insight..(no pun intended)

I grew up on open sights and still use them frequently today--in my experience as well, again , the ghost ring is much superior..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

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Re: Target for zeroing with open sights [Re: Ripp]
      #91144 - 10/12/07 02:28 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Very interesting JPK.

"THE TRADITIONAL OPEN V BACKSIGHT IS A SECOND-RATE CHOICE, FIT ONLY TO SERVE AS AN EMERGENCY STAND-BY. THE 'GHOST RING' APERTURE (JEFF COOPER'S DESCRIPTION) IS VASTLY SUPERIOR UNDER ALL CONDITIONS, FOR ANY PURPOSE WHATSOEVER." Finn Aagaard, American Rifleman, March 1984, page 76.






I agree with you totally as to the Ghost ring--I would think it would be pretty clear after the military using it as standard equipement on the M-16 for the past 50 years there must be something to it.. On Jeff Cooper, as shown above, he was a huge advocate of this type of sighting system... IMHO, you really can't argue with his experience and insight..(no pun intended)

I grew up on open sights and still use them frequently today--in my experience as well, again , the ghost ring is much superior..

Ripp



And this is so true until you are taliking about big dangerous game and ranges under 50yds, even really under 25yds. Here you need all the view and perspective you can get. That big open V works great, doesn't hide or obscure anything and isn't even a heartbeat slower.

JPk

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