Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: What's better-Double or Bolt??

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
What's better-Double or Bolt??
      #79025 - 20/05/07 11:29 AM

Read an interesting article in African Hunter
"What's better, Double or Bolt??"

http://www.african-hunter.com/bolt_action_vs_double.htm

The author a bolt guy says he may try a Double one day but has concerns--

1)??Range concerns and lack of flexibility??
Exactly what ranges does he want to shoot DG at?
Do solids and softs not impact closely?
Don't medium caliber Doubles have extended range!!

2) Reloading-
Was the reloading test faster for the bolt?? Read and find out!!

3)Reliability
The Double is a low pressure system and he found cases got stuck--

3)Expense
The Double was more expensive--

So now all you guys need to be getting rid of those old Double relics and give them to me before bolt guy fusses at you!!

Opinions anyone??

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mickey
.416 member


Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #79027 - 20/05/07 12:18 PM

It reads like an Author looking for a paycheck. The article says nothing and endorses everything.

A waste of ink and newsprint.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
AzGuy
.333 member


Reged: 23/03/06
Posts: 388
Loc: Prescott, Arizona, USA
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: mickey]
      #79029 - 20/05/07 12:30 PM

I agree that it is basically a "paycheck" article..... but upon reading it twice, he backhandedly makes a pretty good case for the Double!!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: mickey]
      #79031 - 20/05/07 12:38 PM

I can only address his concerns baised upon my own use of the double in Texas, Montana, Idaho, Canada, Alaska, and Zimbabwe.

I have taken game from squirrel to elephants.

Range:
I can shoot and hit with an iron sighted double as well as I can with an iron sighted bolt rifle.

With a scope sighted double I have taken game to a little over 300 yards.

With a scoped bolt rifle in a Magnum calibre I have taken game farther... But I have not hunted with a scope Magnum double.

Reloading.
I have discovered that the immediate second shot has proven to be much more useful to me than a bolt rifle with 3 or more rounds in the magazine.

And I do not just mean for DG at point blank range, but for general hunting as well.

Reliability.
Nothing beats the reliability of a double rifle.

Expense
By their design double rifles are a LOT more expensive than most bolt rifles.
However when you compare them to custom bolt rifles the difference narrows.

For me, I have found a double rifle to be FAR superior to ANY other rifle action type for MOST hunting.

I never set out to prove this "theory", I just "discovered" it to be true after using a double rifle for most of my hunting here in North America preparing for Africa.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #79042 - 20/05/07 03:27 PM

Let's see--

Give him $$$expense, They are $$pricey!!

*Range--no issue on DG,why would I want to shoot them at 150yds anyway??
*Flexibility- one bestload, one type bullet is what I use for my big Bolts.The Double hits to roughly the same POI with 2 types of bullets at a killing velocity.Sounds like a better "load" to me!!

*Reliability-the Double wins, one load at low pressure & medium velocity will win in hot conditions over high pressure, high velocity with a frozen bolt!!

*Reloading-Not a contest, the Double will be faster ever time!!


Sounds like the guy wants a Double and can't have one!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (20/05/07 03:29 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
NE450No2
.375 member


Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #79043 - 20/05/07 03:54 PM

Hoppdoc

Re range.
I have used my 9,3x74R [as well as my 450/400 3 1/4" and my 450No2] on non dangerous game, and not found any limitations or disadvantages compared to similar bolt rifles.

Bottom line is, I think doubles are superior to bolt rifles for most hunting.

One exception being long range shooting. [Again I have not hunted with a Magnum double rifle].


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: NE450No2]
      #79054 - 20/05/07 10:30 PM

I basically agree.

I do a fair amount of big game Bolt rifle hunting for elk/moose/bear.

Bolts are great but I think shooting game with them are mostly one shot affairs.

The last hunt I was blessed and took an elk at 459 yds, (2 witnesses)with the first shot being fatal in the heart lung region but additional shots taken.I shoot deer at extended ranges as well out of shooting houses.Both kinds of shots are ranged with an opti-logic laser to determine the exact horizontal distance.The first shot must be perfect with no wind and ideal conditions.These are basically one shot affairs.

These would be some of the few times a scoped medium Double for non dangerous game would be out of place even for shooting just one shot.

For dangerous game no question, that 2nd shot cannot be fumbled, it must be there.The Double wins.

Would the average american hunter also be better off with a scoped medium Double than a bolt for a second shot at non dangerous game??
I personally think maybe so.

I am excluding semiautos here due to their poor reliability and "yuck" appeal to most hunters

Why all the bolts vs Doubles?? Everyone knows the answer--$$$$$

Bolts are very accurate with a scope, cheap to build,"macho" in a "magnum" calber and effective.Still most of the time an accurate 2nd shot is not made by the shooter.In the interval from the 1st shot to the 2nd the game is down or GONE.

Betcha most american hunters could switch to a single shot and notice no difference with the amount of game taken.Put a medium Double in their hands and suddenly they have a quick 2nd shot while looking thru the scope!!

I'm thinking my next Double will be a medium scoped one so I can state facts like NE450no2 instead of just yapping away here!!


--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (20/05/07 10:46 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #79056 - 20/05/07 10:45 PM

For DG that my require a second shot with only the pull of a trigger, the DR. For everything else the bolt or good lever action as they can be made very light and sport a scope. If any of you have hunted the Rockies, Cascade or Olympic mountians you WILL appriciate every ounce you don't have to carry.

Saying all that. I live in SC now and hunt deer with my .375 merkel double.

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
bonanza
.400 member


Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #79058 - 20/05/07 10:50 PM

"Bolts are very accurate with a scope, cheap to build,"macho" in a "magnum" calber and effective.Still most of the time an accurate 2nd shot is not made by the shooter.In the interval from the 1st shot to the 2nd the game is down or GONE."

HopDoc,


The overiding appeal of the DR is that you have complete mechanical redundancy.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: bonanza]
      #79066 - 21/05/07 01:13 AM

For me the primary appeal of a Double is the rapid aimed 2nd shot on the animal hunted.I assume(hope) that the mechanical redundancy will work every time.

Bolts are extremely reliable mechanically-its just the shooter working the mechanism that can screw up the 2nd shot!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #79079 - 21/05/07 05:14 AM

There is no way to answer the question of which is best, the double rifle or the bolt gun, without taking in to consideration the ability of the shooter.

I have been a competetive shooter with the "high powered" rifle since 1960. My first match rifle was a converted Rock Island Springfield in .30-'o6 caliber. Part of the course of fire consisted of rapid fire, standing to sitting, at 200 yards, ten shots in 60 seconds, starting with the rifle loaded and including reloading after the first five shots (with a "charger" or "stripper clip"). The course of fire also included rapid fire, standing to prone, at 300 yards, ten shots in 70 seconds, with the same reloading required. Both stages were fired at the "A" target, with a 10 inch "5" ring. Perfect scores were not unusual, so in 1968 the target was changed to one incorporating a 7" "10" ring and a 13" 9ring in the aiming black. Perfect scores became rarer, but not unusual.

My African hunting experience includes two when I was using a .505 rifle of my own design, which duplicated factory ballistics for the .500 NE, weighed 8 3/4 pounds and generated about 100 ft./lbs. of free recoil.

On one occasion my PH was charged from behind by a black rhino. I was standing off to one side and had a clear shot. My first shot hit him in the neck, just missing the spine, the next two hit the shoulder, and the last one (I having reloaded in the meantime) went right up the rhino's rump. My PH, when he got his William Evans .470 DR into action, hit him once in the rump (the bullet tumbled and penetrated only about a foot) and the other shot glanced off the left side of the larger horn as the rhino angled off to the left.

On another occasion I was standing on a rocky ledge overlooking a thicket where native herders had reported a large Cape Buffalo bull taking a siesta. A few well aimed rocks woke him up and headed him in my direction. As he hurried past, I fired four times, three of the shots hitting in the shoulder area in a group the size of a playing card, the other somewhat further back.

I should add that in the meantime the rifle had been converted from a two shot magazine to a three, so that on the second occasion, no reload was necessary. The bull went down so fast that his nose plowed up the ground.

I had a .458 DR with me, but chose to use the .505 becuase of my facility with the bolt action and the larger more powerful cartridge. If the .458 had been a .500 NE, I would have probably used it.
Had I not been trained the way I had been in rapid fire with a bolt gun, and had I not been able to work the action without removing the rifle from my shoulder, there is no question that the DR would have been the better choice.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: xausa]
      #79089 - 21/05/07 10:28 AM

For what purpose? Dangerous game in close cover? Most would say a DR. Cape Buffalo? Again, most would say a DR, but given the pugnacious and determined nature these critters are reputed to display, and stories about them soaking up several rounds at close range, perhaps the added capacity of a bolt? In short, there is not a definitive answer but a never ending debate.

I love my DRs, but a good bolt is a thing of joy and beauty as well. Today was sight in new scope on my Sauer 202 take down, one barrel in 375 H&H, one in 300 Win Mag. The gun goes together like nicely without tools and the action is, as said, like butter. Dead reliable feed and after a half box to zero the 375 barrel, and then take the scope on and off to check that it was holding the zero when reattached (it was, thank you EAW) the 300 Win Mag bbl and just picked up the dot above the zero for the flatter trajectory but dead on. Then over to my Time Precision 22, a precision tool indeed for something completely different. A box of Midas Master L at 100 yards produced a series of one holes in mulitple bullseyes at 100 yds. Fun fun fun. So is a bolt as fine an instrument as a good DR? In my opinion, yes.

Of course, I finished the day with five rounds through the 476 WR. That cleared the snot out for the trip home.

Variety is the spice of life. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: dnovo]
      #79090 - 21/05/07 10:40 AM

Xausa-
I envey your mastery of shooting a big bolt off the shoulder-thats a great skill to have!

I would bet 95% of bolt guys couldn't do that with a gun with 100 ftpnds of recoil.I couldn't.

I use a bolt most of the time but would be concerned in a DG situation about short stroking it(remember the brown bear charge video where the bolt guy messed up?). Thus I would lean toward the Double at close range-

Hey Dave!!--

You have way too many nice guns. You need to give some to me!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (21/05/07 10:45 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
4seventy
Sponsor


Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #79107 - 21/05/07 03:06 PM

The double is the nicest rifle that you can use in the field and is definately my favourite of all rifle action types.
Is the double as versatile as a bolt gun in all types of hunting situations?
IMO no way.
The double is great in many ways but does suffer from several drawbacks when compared to boltguns.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #79124 - 22/05/07 03:23 AM

hoppdoc,

The key to fast, reliable bolt manipulation is practice. Back in the days of the Springfield, recruits were made to practice rapid bolt manipulation with the trigger tied back, so that the bolt cocked the striker on every repetition. I find dry firing more useful. Not the slow fire "snapping in" we used in the Marine Corps, but holding the rifle at the "ready" position and shouldering it while concentrating on the object to be aimed at.

Inside, it can be a doorknob or a light switch, but the sight should be pointing on or very close to it as soon as the cheek hits the comb of the stock. Then snap off a shot and cycle the action, using the index finger to open the bolt, pull it all the way to the rear and then close the bolt with the thumb or palm of the hand. Move your head no more than is necessary to avoid the cocking piece and keep your eye on the target at all times.

Using dummy rounds in practice is an option to consider. Not only can you be sure that your technique carries over to getting the round in the chamber, they will also reveal any errors in bolt operation which might affect ejection. It goes without saying that dummy rounds should be kept strictly segregated from live ones. My homemade dummy rounds have no primers and have large holes drilled in the sides, so as to be instantly identifiable as such.

This might be a good time to mention running all the ammunition you plan to take with you on your hunting trip through the magazine and into the chamber, just to see if they feed easily and chamber with no problem. This is especially a factor if you plan to use handloads.

Recoil is not a factor shooting at game. My experience has been that I have never noticed it. Shooting at a target, either standing or off the bench is another matter. For this reason, I practice almost exclusively with reduced loads and save the full powered loads for final sighting in and actual hunting. Shooting hundreds of low velocity lead bullet loads will build the needed skill both in aiming and bolt manipulation to the point that they are totallly unconcious. An added benefit is totally instinctive manipulation of the safety.

I have seen recommendations that a hunter going to Africa should take his favorite deer rifle for plains game and rent a heavy gun when he arrives. In my opinion, nothing is further from the truth. Shoting a heavy rifle should be second nature. Shooting a rifle at plains game is not demanding at all, if you know anything about trajectories and range estimation, and nowadays I imagine laser rangefinders have taken most of the guesswork out of the latter.

I gather from reading other threads that one of the thrills of owning a heavy rifle is simply the satisfaction of being able to stand up against the heaviest of recoil and walk away from it virtually unharmed. I have experienced that thrill myself. My homemade .577 has given me all the recoil I care for, despite its twelve pound weight, but if I were to prepare myself for another African trip with it, it would not be by shooting full loads. I know that when the time comes, I will be concentrating on the target to the point that I will not even be aware of the recoil of the heaviest loads, and instead of being braced against the recoil, my body will be loose enough to absorb it without having to take a step backward or otherwise accomodate myself to it.

I once shot an elephant with my .505 standing on top of a termite mound (I was doing the standing, not the elephant). Not only did the recoil not overbalance me, I immediately fired a followup shot into the heart before climbing down. (The shot was a difficult rear quartering shot at the brain, and I wanted to be more on the same level with the brain when I shot. WDM Bell used to use a ladder for brain shots, but I had none handy. The elephant dropped at the shot.)

The aforementioned four shots at the buffalo were taken standing on a ledge about four inches wide and raised about six inches from the surface behind it. My gun bearer was standing behind me to catch me if I overbalanced. The precaution was unnecessary.

This kind of practice applies to double rifles as well, except the use of snap caps should be mandatory. Practice in reloading is particularly important. For an experienced skeet shooter, with hundreds of hours on the skeet range shooting with an O/U shotgun, shoooting an O/U double rifle is second nature. S/S double rifle users should concentrate on shooting S/S shotguns to perfect their technique. Of course, it's important to have both shotgun and rifle stocked as near identically as possible.

I have an extra set of shotgun barrels for my Krieghoff .458, so I can shoot skeet with the same gun I have used for elephant and buffalo. I have even shot skeet using .410 shotshells in the .458 barrels and with the 2 1/2 power scope sight in place. Shooting from the low gun position, and having the targets thrown with a delay, as in International Skeet, makes the practice even more realistic.

Edited by xausa (22/05/07 06:17 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: xausa]
      #79125 - 22/05/07 03:47 AM

I must agree with xausa. I wouldn't hunt any game, let alone dangerous game, with a rifle that I had not shot with enough so that its use and accuracy was not virtually automatic. My Sauer 202 fits that for me, and I have used it enough that its slick bolt and large, bright scope allows me to get on target fast and work the bolt with ease for the follow up shots. I have also had enough 'time' on it that I find that with the 375 H&H barrel mounted, recoil is not an issue. The open sights are also fast to pick up if I wanted to use it with the scope in heavy brush, where it would be an ideal bear rifle in Alaska or in Africa on buffalo, which I understand the 375 would do just fine, but would prefer something a bit more stout if it was my fat butt on the line!

No matter what you shoot, bolt or DR, practice makes perfect -- and safe. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: dnovo]
      #79155 - 22/05/07 12:00 PM

I guess I shoot bolts a bit different.

I don't shoot off the shoulder except with my 270 Sako.I can work that bolt pronto.Not so with bigger rifles or big Bores.The Sako scope picture stays the same even on high power.

I use the index finger and the middle finger together to open the bolt and the thumb to close it.The problem is to bing the trigger finger at speed to the right position and maintain the scope picture on target.

For me,heavy recoiling rifles mess with this coordinated action off the shoulder signifigantly and primarily the scope picture.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mehulkamdar
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 3688
Loc: State of Ill-Annoy USA.
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #79351 - 25/05/07 07:14 AM

What's better? Depends on how much money you have to spend.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #79354 - 25/05/07 09:28 AM

Quote:

Bolt actions have a very powerful camming action for primary extraction, and can thus handle high pressures and sticky cases with ease. Not so double rifles. I well remember firing two different double rifles which had been re-barrelled to fire more obtainable calibres, but calibres which generated pressures considerably greater than the original rounds did. Both seemed to work fine - at first - but both seized up on me after a few rounds. Upon opening the action the empty cases, instead of being ejected, merely sat there looking at me. They were stuck in the chambers, and the extraction and ejection mechanism was not powerful enough to shift them. Sometimes closing and opening the action again will put things right, but on one occasion I had to poke the empties out with a cleaning rod.




don’t know what kind of double rifle this guy had, but the first small amount of opening, the ejectors are extractors, and if they are not strong enough to lift the cases out of the chambers, the rifle will not open at all! With even the smallest amount of taper to the case, the extraction afforded by the first amount would release the case from the chamber walls, and if ejectors are fitted, the cases would be ejected. IMO, opinion, the above paragraph is more speculation than experience!




Quote:

It is an undeniable fact that (most) bolt actions hold more rounds than do double rifles. The advantage gained may or may not be significant, though. If a quick follow-up shot is required, nothing beats a double. If more than two shots are required, the bolt action is preferable, but the double is quicker to reload should this be necessary. I would call this a draw, as so much depends on the actual situation. I was once putting a group of hunters and guides through a shooting course which called for three rounds to be loaded, followed by a mandatory reload of two rounds. However, one of the hunters had a double rifle, so to make it fairer and more competitive for him we had everyone load with two rounds at a time. Never again! The speed at which that double could be fired and reloaded made absolute mincemeat out of the bolt action users, and was an education to behold. That double rifle user needed no concessions at all, believe me!





The above paragraph only shows that many think one thing, and find another when it is put to practice!
I think, basically, the article is a good one, and well written, but with a definite bias toward the bolt rifle he is most familiar with. He is right in one respect, if a person shifts to a double after using a bolt all their lives, they need to do some shooting before they will get good with the double, and vice-versa! Without knowing it he has shown his ignorance as to how a double is properly regulated. This isn’t his fault, as many folks who have been hunting, loading for, and experimenting with doubles for many years believe as he does. Both are mistaken, however! I double regardless of chambering, if properly regulated, is as accurate as the same round would be in a single shot, or bolt rifle, with the same sighting equipment. This is because if the load is right, the barrels, though physically, converging, do not cross at any distance, but shoot side by side!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
hoppdoc
.400 member


Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #79361 - 25/05/07 09:58 AM

Bolt actions have a very powerful camming action for primary extraction, and can thus handle high pressures and sticky cases with ease. Not so double rifles. I well remember firing two different double rifles which had been re-barrelled to fire more obtainable calibres, but calibres which generated pressures considerably greater than the original rounds did. Both seemed to work fine - at first - but both seized up on me after a few rounds. Upon opening the action the empty cases, instead of being ejected, merely sat there looking at me. They were stuck in the chambers, and the extraction and ejection mechanism was not powerful enough to shift them. Sometimes closing and opening the action again will put things right, but on one occasion I had to poke the empties out with a cleaning rod.

Mac--
Maybe he was refering to a non rimmed cartridge,like a 458WM etc where the small ejectors couldn't move the hull back??

Bet this dude would be a Double man with any type of continuous exposure and the $$coin to obtain one!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (25/05/07 09:16 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DUGABOY1
.400 member


Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #79369 - 25/05/07 01:10 PM

The way I read his discription, is whaen the rifle was opened the cases were still fully chambered in the barrels! That is imposible!

It really doesn't make any difference what cartridge was chambered the rife can't open without moveing the cases at least 1/8th inch, or breaking the extractor. If the extractor portion of the ejector meets a case that will not move, the rifle will not open. The forarm must be removed, and the barrels removed without engageing the extractor actuator! The way he wrote the discription, he opened the rifle and the cases simply did not move, and that is imposible, without breaking the extractor/ejector, unless the forearm is removed first! It was simply a theory he had that he didn't think about before he wrote it, and doesn't have enough experience with double rifles to know better! Still he wrote a fair assesment of the worth of a double rifle, without even realizing it!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #79373 - 25/05/07 07:03 PM

Mac:

He says "double rifles which had been re-barrelled to fire more obtainable calibres", which means rimless ammo. He's describing precisely what I've experienced numerous times with rimless doubles. The pawl slips over the rim when the gun is opened leaving the spent cartridge unextracted, and yes, simply closing the gun and opening it again sometimes does the trick.

You're right, if the rifle is chambered for a flanged shell, and the shell doesn't want to extract, the gun won't open. However, if it's chambered for a rimless shell and the pawl slips over the rim, the gun CAN open without extraction. A friend had a Westley boxlock in 9.3X62 rimless that did this about 50% of the time.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Will
.333 member


Reged: 04/02/03
Posts: 303
Loc: Kansas
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #79377 - 25/05/07 10:19 PM

When I first read that article some time ago I rhought that Mr. Haley was the Charlie Haley of HHK fame. If so, then the cost of a double is not of concern.

I thought it was a good article as it seems to be from the perspective of how many may view double rifles, especially from a practical, working African standpoint.

And I doubt anyone ever gets paid by African Hunter magazine!

Hey, afterall, the bolt vs. double debate is a perennial meat and potatoes favorite.

--------------------
_________________________________________________
Bill Stewart

Once you have been amongst them, there is no such thing as too much gun.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Double_Trouble
.375 member


Reged: 27/04/06
Posts: 577
Loc: Canada
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: hoppdoc]
      #79379 - 25/05/07 10:46 PM

This guy clearly needs to try a Szecsei/Fuchs Double Barrel Bolt Action rifle... end of debate!


DT

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: What's better-Double or Bolt?? [Re: Will]
      #79380 - 25/05/07 10:47 PM

I haven't experienced the issues many of you seem to have had with rimless cartridges in a DR or, for that matter, in my single shots which normally operate the same way. Sure, both the DR and singles were built from the outset to use a rimmed cartridge, but they have both been adopted to rimless cartridges with little fuss. Of course, the extractor has to be set properly on any rimless to do the job properly, but if that is done right, you should not experience any problems.

There are a substantial number of high end British DRs chambered for rimless cartridges, including the 375 H&H which have continued to function quite well despite their age. Many modern doubles are chambered for a variety of rimless cartridges, including 30-06 and, again with proper design and fit, work just fine. Granted with a dangerous game rifle, I would prefer the last possible assurance of function and would want a rimmed cartridge, but other than that, the availability and cost of a rimless would be a factor to consider as well.

So? There is no 'correct' choice and you can select whatever floats your boat. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 106 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 4899

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved