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zimhunter
.333 member


Reged: 05/02/04
Posts: 388
Loc: Southern Arizona
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: mickey]
      #76725 - 17/04/07 03:53 AM

One double for me would have to be a medium weight scoped 9.3x74r. By medium weight I mean around 9# loaded with scope of about 1.5x5 in claw mounts. Set trigger on one barrel. Make of choice would probably be Heym, ejectors with selector switch. You would then be well equipped to take ANY game in the world from closeup out to about 300yds. Not too heavy to carry all day not too much recoil to shoot all day.

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Rustyzipper
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Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: zimhunter]
      #77205 - 22/04/07 12:23 PM

I have a 412 in 9.3 and have little experience with doubles. Big bores; I have shot and owned a few that qualify. But I still think for my use a quality 450-400 double would fill the bill. Rustyzipper

--------------------
NMLRA Life, NRA Annual,DRSS, .......


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Safarischorsch
.275 member


Reged: 28/02/04
Posts: 98
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: mickey]
      #77218 - 22/04/07 05:12 PM

No doubt: .450 N.E. 3 1/4 cause i like diameter .458 and i like the possibility of using small double rifles.

With the .450 its pssible to built a small DR with a powerfull cartridge...


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Schamankungulo
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Reged: 21/04/07
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Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: Safarischorsch]
      #77248 - 23/04/07 11:44 AM

One and only one ?? Jeesh you guys are tuff to deal with here ..
I hadda 470 and now have a 500 , love both , lean to the 500 , but one ?? Well since it's someone else dime here ..
Royal Deluxe 577


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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: Schamankungulo]
      #77252 - 23/04/07 12:32 PM

I own a double for the purpose of getting very close to elephants. So the caliber should be the biggest that I can handle. However, I am not brute enough to carry a 13 to 16 pound rifle on a long stalk. So that leaves out the .577 and .600. Thus I settled on the .500 NE as being the most power I could get out of a double in a rifle light enough for me to carry on a long stalk at a rapid pace.

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hoppdoc
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Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: 500grains]
      #77492 - 27/04/07 03:28 AM

Pure conjecture NOT based on experience but if I had a favorite Elephant Double I would have to agree with Mickey and I believe Marrakai who believe that the 577 Light Magnum with the 2 3/4 case as a primo candidate.A 750 grain solid at 1850 should penetrate well and have major smack as well.

The recoil should be similar to a 500 NE so I would think you could build such a Double in the 11 pound range and carry it all day.

Lacking a 577 I will be happy to use my 500 NE without complaint.If I do my part shooting dead is still dead.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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hoppdoc
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Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: hoppdoc]
      #77514 - 27/04/07 06:52 AM

Conjecture is just conjecture and if unsupported by facts it is
misleading.

A review here and on 470 Mbogo.com suggests the 650 gr 577 light lacks penetration on Ele at difficult angles. Whether the 750 gr solid compensates for this at 200 fps less than the full 577 NE is unknown.Perhaps others here could enlighten me regarding its performance and penetration on Ele.

http://www.470mbogo.com/BigBoreCompendium/

In any event the penetration of the 500 NE is not in doubt and is great!! No flies on this cartridge!

http://www.470mbogo.com/BigBores/BigBores7.html

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.

Edited by hoppdoc (27/04/07 10:17 AM)


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Rigby
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Reged: 26/04/07
Posts: 1
Loc: North Carolina,USA
Re: Hambrusch 375 H&H [Re: dnovo]
      #77517 - 27/04/07 10:05 AM

I have several doubles 375 flanged 470ne and 577ne all by John Rigby and Co.They all shoot wonderfully.The 375 is easy for any game hate not to have that stopping power though.I just joined the site yesterday.I look forward to everyones insites.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Hambrusch 375 H&H [Re: Rigby]
      #77525 - 27/04/07 12:59 PM

Rigby, welcome aboard! It sounds like you are well equipped. Please join in. We need your insights and experience.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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500grains
.416 member


Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: hoppdoc]
      #77538 - 27/04/07 11:31 PM

Quote:

Pure conjecture NOT based on experience but if I had a favorite Elephant Double I would have to agree with Mickey and I believe Marrakai who believe that the 577 Light Magnum with the 2 3/4 case as a primo candidate.A 750 grain solid at 1850 should penetrate well and have major smack as well.




I used a .585 nyati on elephant and buffalo. It was pushing a 750 grain solid at 2250 fps. I only got 3.5 feet of penetration, which is not very impressive. Drop the velocity by 400 fps? It should be fine for buffalo, but would not be my first choice for frontal brain shots on elephant.


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DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: 500grains]
      #77539 - 28/04/07 12:42 AM

: First choice would be a 14 bore, double percussion English Sporting Rifle with 95" twist for round ball.
: In a modern-type rifle with no regard to ammo availablity - Easy - .360 #2 - or for easy ammo access 9.3x74 - pretty much the same thing, ballistics-wise.
: I just finished re-reading African Rifles and Ctgs. again for the third or 4th time and John Taylor has rekindled my love of medium bores and my desire for a nice light double.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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ducota
.275 member


Reged: 27/04/07
Posts: 75
Loc: Portugal
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: DarylS]
      #77568 - 28/04/07 08:07 AM

Hello everybody, it's my first day here and I chose this topic to break the ice.
As for doubles I have a CCS25 FN Browning O/U custom grade 9,3X74R which I often use here in Portugal for wild boar, red and fallow dear and a 470 NE Krieghoff which I've used for hipo and buf in Mozambique. I handload for both without any major problem.
About the Krieghoff, I would like to listen to more experienced advices about ejectors on doubles for dangerous game. Mine doesn't have ejectors and the classics are not unanimous about this issue, some stating that such a double is useless while others saying they would never use a double with ejectors over dangerous game. Anyway most of these people hunted many years ago under very different circunstances. What about it?


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
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Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: ducota]
      #77580 - 28/04/07 01:19 PM

ducota,

Welcome to nitroexpress.com. You have come to a fine community. I agree that the 9.3x74R is a top-line caliber.

Please post a lot.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: CptCurl]
      #77773 - 01/05/07 07:15 AM

Only one for everything? So for your buck and pig to rhino and elephant? That then to me must be a round that can be loaded up and down.....

A tricky one but ok for modern a .500 nitro and for old a .577 express i guess.

If only one and expected to hunt the world over then a cape instead please!!! How much rabbit is left after being hit with a heavy game round??? How much pigeon?

Ben


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Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: empirevr]
      #77804 - 01/05/07 07:08 PM

A good argument for the 12-bore Magnum Paradox, empirevr!


...or a Paradox No.10 or 8 if jumbo is to be included in the bag!

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: Marrakai]
      #77824 - 02/05/07 03:02 AM

Marrikai
I will surely second that statement!

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: gatsby]
      #78344 - 10/05/07 07:53 AM

Hmm, true......

Now, let me tell you what i cant get then hang of with regards to paradoxes.

How do you tell if one is an original paradox gun or a shotgun someone added sights to later?

A H&H 12b paradox went at Holt's, and weighed 6lb 10 ounces.......

Sounds like a painful, and perhaps even weak gun to be firing a 12b big game round from, be it conical or ball...ball seems easy i suppose, but what did paradoxes fire?

Why not get a 12b and 'paradox' it? a good 3" mag fowler.......

Lyon and Lyon jungle gun anyone?

Ben


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dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: empirevr]
      #78351 - 10/05/07 09:50 AM

I am not a fan of light for 'light' sake and some of the numbers I have seen floating around this and other threads for 11 pounds or less in these rifles makes me a bit nervous. I have been quietly waiting for the 'right' 577 to surface. By 'right' I mean a gun in good condition. Bores are the principal focus, followed by the necessary internal parts, etc as trying to find a part for a Westley, A&N, or other British double that could be 100 years old or more is not going to be an easy task. As far as tightening up the action, aligning the face, etc, I would be willing to bet that JJ or several others can take care of that, refit and go through pretty much anything I would need. Even a reblue or recase-colored by a good craftman will give you a rifle that looks and shots like new.

But, you can't change basics. I was lusting after a Belguim built 577 that was of recent build, looked great and was not priced out of sight. I checked the specs listed by the dealer and said no. Issue? Just under 11 pounds for a 577. I feel about 13.5 to 14.5 would be the range I'd want in a 750 gr gun, and at 10.75 or 11 pounds, it may be easy to carry, but you'd better drop that sucker with the first round because you are not going to be recovering real fast for the second barrel! I'm not recoil sensitive, and have a penchant for some fairly hairy outfits but I uncorked a pair of 750s in a 11.6 pound Alex Henry and said, 'thanks but no thanks.' And, since the conventional wisdom is that a 650gr load isn't that much of an improvement over say a 500 Nitro, then why bother with the far greater expense and other issues just to have something that is neither fish nor fowl?

I'm also not going out to stalk anything more aggressive than my mother-in-law without shooting my rifle enough to be comfortable with it and be able to use it instinctively if the feces strikes the rotating air circulation device. A couple practice rounds with a light 577 and Mr. Flinch should be a permenant resident. So, you buy a gun that is lighter and easier to tote, but then really can't get comfortable enough to shot it well. Okay, perhaps you can, but most of us aren't going to find ourselves becoming at ease with a rifle that is a handful with everything sacrificed to be more 'portable' than a gun two pounds heavier or a 500 Nitro of the same or even a bit less weight.

Thanks but no thanks. Get a 500NE and get the same job done without the pain. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels

Edited by dnovo (10/05/07 09:55 AM)


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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: dnovo]
      #78368 - 10/05/07 11:34 AM

Dave--

The numbers work out to 50% more recoil for the 577 with an 11.5 pnd rifle and 104 ftpnds of recoil.

Betcha if you were carrying that 11 pounder and "the feces hit the fan" you wouldn't even remember the recoil!!
All you would remember would be the massive Ele trumpeting and charging you to turn you into toe jam.

But Contrare to hunting- shooting a lightweight 577 for regulation and sights would be quite memorable and painful.

I would certainly agree that a 500 NE would be the better practical pick at that weight.

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: empirevr]
      #78380 - 10/05/07 03:04 PM

empirevr,

It is the choke rifling that allows the paradox to shoot an elongated bullet much heavier than a round ball of the same diameter out too say 150yds and with a more aerodynamic capped bullet 300yds. It is also that rifling that allows the same gun to shoot good shot patterns. I would think a paradox would be extremely difficult to recreate or misrepresent. The smooth bore run of the bullet greatly reduces the felt recoil, truely in all ways a paradox.

9 groove
[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=493972&c=500&z=1"][/url]


7 groove




[url=http://www.hunt101.com/img/492643.jpg]ht[url="http://www.hunt101.com/?p=492643&c=500&z=1"][/url]tp://www.hunt101.com/img/492643.jpg[/url]

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



Edited by gatsby (10/05/07 03:10 PM)


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dnovo
.333 member


Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: gatsby]
      #78394 - 10/05/07 11:18 PM

I am in the process of gearing up to put together some loads for my Cogswell 12 bore 'Paradox' (Cogswell's trade name for their version was "Cosmos") but looking done the bores, it has the same basic pattern of short, tight rifling at the end of each barrel. I am not aiming for the 'stomp the buffalo' load at first, but I am looking forward to seeing how accuary, recoil, etc stacks up against my more traditional British DRs. Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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DarylS
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Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: dnovo]
      #78399 - 11/05/07 01:23 AM

The modified chokes of a single or double shotgun could easily be rifled, using a muzzleloading-type rifling machine. I expect to do just this, this coming summer with an old gunsmith friend of mine from Kelona, B.C. He's rifled a few barrels in the past by hand and feels it a simple job to rifle a shotgun's choke, like the Paradox guns of the 19th century. I agree. A square twisted rod of correct twist rate, held in a yoke is all that's necessary to turn the cutter - much the same fashion as used in the 19th century. Time and energy is required, of course.
: I suggest improved modified as that will give .010" depth per side in a standard 12 of .730", whereas full choke would leave .020" per side due to it's 40 points of choke.
: I do not know the measurements of chokes in more modern 'over bored' shotguns wiht .735" to .740" bores.
: The bores shown above appear to have very deep rifling indeed - fully .015" anyway - maybe .020". Perhaps a full choke is the proper one to rifle.
: Any modern shotgun should handle 1-1/2 ounce of lead at up to 1,400fps. 1-1/2 oz. is 650gr. Incidently, if cloth patched in the case, slightly undersize solid round balls should work to 1,600fps, a full 100fps faster than the heaviest 12 bore load of the 1870's and 80's. For them, it took 190gr. black powder. For us, it's about 26gr. (just a guess - not loading data) of Hodgdon's Longshot, shotgun powder.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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gatsby
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Reged: 05/09/05
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Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: DarylS]
      #78423 - 11/05/07 09:15 AM

Daryl
Simply rifling a choke does not make a paradox unless the gun will regulate and pattern with shot also. Typically there are more than 40 points of choke in a 12 bore paradox shooting a 730gr to 750gr bullet. The paradox is slightly heavier than a standard 12 with the weight being applied in the barrel walls.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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dnovo
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Reged: 21/02/05
Posts: 490
Loc: Chicago & SE Wisconsin
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: gatsby]
      #78425 - 11/05/07 09:26 AM

The last post shows why this is a unique group. Where else on the Web, or anywhere else, would you get the straight dope on something this arcane but also so important? I am glad I stubbled across this site and joined up. You guys are the best.

Dave

--------------------
Time Wounds All Heels


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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: Favourite Caliber [Re: dnovo]
      #78458 - 11/05/07 08:03 PM

I'll second that, Dave.

+1

Guys...is the Lyon and Lyon jungle gun a paradox then?

Any of you ever considered one of those Baikal 'coach' gun shotguns for some kind of adaption? Hammer with 26" barrels, looks tough as anything......

Ben


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