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Preacher
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Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea
Silly things about the 9,3x74R
      #66776 - 11/12/06 08:55 AM

Have read a number of posts describing incredible stories that happened with a 9,3x74R, like elephants at 5 yards, 300 yards shots and a good amount of other silly things. The mentioned caliber, unpayable companion of mine during 25 years, excellent for European big game when practiced at short distances, is just this: an excellent but limited cartridge that will never ever be even closely called “an all around African cartridge”.
For long and responsible quick death shots is near unusefull, and for large game should just be forbidden unless one goes to African to make experiments with his last DR, and wants the PH do an extra doubling job ( and the great African cartridges were developed many, many years ago, already).


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Rusty
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Reged: 08/02/03
Posts: 464
Loc: Missouri City, Texas
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: Preacher]
      #66845 - 12/12/06 11:33 AM

LOL! the really silly thing about those stories, is I know the guy that made those shots!
I most certainly would not called the 9.3X74R a great killer, but NE450#2, and his Chapuis have had a great run. The 300 yard shot was actually lasared and witnessed to be 270 yards. From a scoped double rifle. The coyote, was struck twice. Two rounds fired, two round hit.

Hopefully I will have a chance to see NE450#2's lastest video from this year on his hunt with his silly 9.3X74R, at the DRSS hunt following the Dallas Safari Club Convention in January!

--------------------
Rusty
We band of brothers!

DRSS


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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: Rusty]
      #66848 - 12/12/06 02:35 PM

Preacher
Is your post refering to ME???

I have had my scoped 9,3x74R Chapuis for several years.
I have hunted it in Texas, Montana, Idaho, Canada, and 3 Safaris to Zimbabwe totaling @85 days of African hunting.

I have taken the following game [that I can remember off of the top of my head].
Skunks, armidillo, racoon, beaver, bobcat, 4 coyotes, several turkeys, several whitetail deer, several wild pigs, 2 black bear, 12 impala, 6 or so Baboons, kudu, waterbuck, klipspringer, caracel, civet cat, sidestriped jackel, at least a dozen zebra, 3 warthogs, cape buffalo bull, my biggest, and a cow elephant.

I did shoot a coyote at a lazered [after the shot] 271 yards. I hit him with both bbls. This shot was witnessed [and filmed] by several people who post here.

I hit a kudu at a little over 300 yards 3 out of 4 shots, also on film several people who post here have seen the video, you can hear the PH say "That is over 300 yards EH" while I am shooting.

I shot a cow elephant at 5 yards, also on film[again several people have seen the video], in Zimbabwe.

All the shots were taken in complete confidence because I had PRACTICED with my 9,3 at 300 yards before the mentioned shots.

All of the "questionable" shots were not only taken in front of witnessess, they were all filmed.

All I can say is "I was there, and I did it", other people saw it, and it is on film.

To make those kind of long shots it takes two things, a guy that can do it, and a gun that is properly sighted in.

To shoot an elephant at 5 yards with a 9,3 it takes a guy with the BALLS and CONFIDENCE to get close.

IF YOU DO NOT QUALIFY, DO NOT ATTEMPT IT.

BUT DO NOT CRITICISE THOSE THAT CAN... AND DO.


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JPK
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Reged: 31/08/04
Posts: 734
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Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: NE450No2]
      #66850 - 12/12/06 03:22 PM

You couldn't pay me to close on an elephant with a 9.3x72, if I had a bigger rifle available. 450 NE No2 did so I'll always wonder about his sanity...But I wouldn't hesitate to do it if it was the rifle available.

The 9.3x74 is on par with the more common 9.3x62, which has plenty of dangerous game in its history, so does the 9.3x74, you just don't read about it as often.

I'm no long range expert, but a man who knows his rifle can do wonders. He knows his rifle, and some.

JPK


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hoppdoc
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Reged: 02/03/06
Posts: 1791
Loc: Southeastern USA
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: JPK]
      #66855 - 12/12/06 08:34 PM

Hats off to NE450No2!!

Anyone who can hit at 300 yds with that calibers rainbow trajectory of has my total admiration.From 200-300 yds the cartridge has 17 inches of drop, from 250-300 it has 10 inches of drop.Compare that with my 7mag with a 250yd zero and 5" of drop. Says alot about the man Preacher- he is a surefire RIFLEMAN!.

Shooting and hitting with those trajectories and taking on an ELE at bad breath range with that caliber is totally amazing--Kinda like trying to catch a high falling knife with two hands--VERY,VERY TOUGH!!

--------------------
An armed man is a citizen of his country, an unarmed man just a subject.


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Preacher
.224 member


Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: NE450No2]
      #66857 - 12/12/06 08:49 PM

I don´t care what´s on a video and less I care about someone else´s balls; this is -surely- the less needed quality that an african hunter needs.
Let me tell you that no matter the balls or the confidence you have to stalk so close to an elephant, but one thing I´m sure of: if the elephant knows it is in a kind of danger and starts to run, and you´re on its way (I don´t need to say "charge"), you, your balls, your confidence and your 9,3 are off the world of the alives.
How many elephant did Karamojo Bell take with a 7x57 Mauser? Several hundreds?
But I see none encouraging none to use such a caliber.
Moreover, I think your PH shouldn´t be in the exercise of this job any longer, as he is, consciously, permiting a client to risk their lives;...just because of what? Because someone has confidence in a particular caliber or rifle, while logic is against?
Who says that? Me? No. It is, "experience apart", RWS when listing all their bullets for this caliber qualifying it as a "NON SUITABLE" for even buffaloes.
Is the 9,3 unable to kill a buffalo, then? No, it kills them; but does not cover all possible situations (mostly those dangerous).
About long & responsible quick death shots: I recognise that I maight have been too severe. I´ll leave it this way: a DR with a low and medium-heavy bullet is far from what it can be called the "ideal gun" for the usually tough african game.

Places and game hunted: I won´t step into this (by now).

Best regards and please 450, don´t take my words in the bad sense. To be critical is not be offensive, at least, not intentionally.
Please do permit me one advice: don´t keep playing around with the duet "elephant-9,3x74R"; I want to read you for many years.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: Preacher]
      #66860 - 12/12/06 09:18 PM

I think NE450No2 is an exceptional shot and an experienced shooter far above most of us here. So what works well for him may not have the same margin for many of us others.

However the 9.3x74R is not far behind a .375 H&H Mag so I don't see that it is that under-gunned.

Using it as a long range cartridge is pushing it a bit, but you can't argue the facts of its success in NE450No2's hands.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Grizzly
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Reged: 05/12/05
Posts: 359
Loc: Dallas, Texas, USA
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: NitroX]
      #66863 - 12/12/06 11:24 PM

Preacher,

You are a piece of work. You know darn well you meant to be offensive and consescending.

You go ahead and bone up on what RWS states what is suitable and what is not - which recommendations are toned way down to avoid liability from lawsuits by people that can't hit the broadside of a barn. The rest of us will go on field experience.

Silly? Seems to me that what is silly here is someone criticizing something he has zero knowledge of. And then refuses to even listen by saying he does not care what is on record. Now that's silly.

And by the way, for someone who doesn't care about "balls", you sure do have a lot to say about them. And I'll stop right there.

--------------------
SCI Life Member
DSC Life Member
DRSS Member


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JDD
.224 member


Reged: 22/09/04
Posts: 39
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: Grizzly]
      #66865 - 13/12/06 12:44 AM

I just got in a box of barnes TSX in 9.3. if I were to hand you one in 375 amd take it back, then hand you one in 9.3 and take it back, you would be hard pressed to tell me which is which. The 375 is not a stopping rifle, the 9,3 is not either. Both will kill any thing that walks, when used poperly. The 375 does have more range because it starts out faster than the 9.3X74r.The 9.3 will do in a pinch. If you shoot a animal at 375 yards with the H&H is it any deader than one shot at 300 with the 9.3x74r. If you are useing either up close and personal it all boils down to shot placement.
Make your shot you live another day, miss it you better hope your PH can shot.

Note also that 450 was not shooting at dangerous game at long range.

JD


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: JDD]
      #66868 - 13/12/06 12:50 AM

RWS ammo does not always have the best bullet to use.

The Kegelspitz or Conepoint while usually very accurate is way too soft.

The TIG is too soft as well.

The TUG may be OK but I have seen reports on them where they have failed on buffalo.

I imagine the FMJ's are OK as FMJs.


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: NitroX]
      #66871 - 13/12/06 01:24 AM

Preacher:

You would do well to resist the temptation to superimpose your own limitations onto others. You'll find that you will make fewer statements that will embarrass you that way.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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Preacher
.224 member


Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: NitroX]
      #66876 - 13/12/06 01:53 AM

NitroX, the very best point by RWS on 9,3x74R ever, was a solid. They quit production.
The 9,3x74R was developed as the continental answer to the .375HH, and in those days was loaded very closely to it.
Nor the strong load and the solid point either, worked.
Those germans must be stupid to let the .375HH "¿superimpossed you said?, ok that.
Thanks Grizzly and 400 for your comments. I´m learning a lot. 22 years of african hunting reduced to ashes.

My first. 1984. PH learning.


My last and number 46 taken). 2006. Full licensed PH.


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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: Preacher]
      #66879 - 13/12/06 03:02 AM

Preacher, I would have to disagree that the PH should lose his license for letting the client get within 5 yards of an elephant. The closest elephant I have shot was 6 yards out, a cow in full charge, and after pulling the trigger I regretted not letting her get one or two strides closer. But I was carrying a bolt gun at the time. With a double I hope I would have behaved better and held my fire a bit longer.

This particular cow had charged from about 60 yards out when she scented us, but she stopped behind a bush at 10 yards and looked at us. It would have been easy to shoot her then, but easy is not what I was looking for. She then retreated toward the herd. We followed her and found her lying in wait about 25 yards away, concealed in the trees. When she saw us approaching, she came on full throttle.

The PH executed these maneuvers perfectly and I commend his fabulous orchestration of the hunt.


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Preacher
.224 member


Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: 500grains]
      #66881 - 13/12/06 03:22 AM

But I suspect you weren´t carrying a 9,3, or were you 500?
That´s why I said so about the PH.
Regards


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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: Preacher]
      #66882 - 13/12/06 03:24 AM

Actually I was carrying a .505.

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: Preacher]
      #66885 - 13/12/06 04:15 AM

Quote:

Have read a number of posts describing incredible stories that happened with a 9,3x74R, like elephants at 5 yards, 300 yards shots and a good amount of other silly things.




If you can't shoot, fine, you should know your limitations. But don't assume others can't just because you can't.

Quote:

The mentioned caliber, unpayable companion of mine during 25 years, excellent for European big game when practiced at short distances, is just this: an excellent but limited cartridge that will never ever be even closely called “an all around African cartridge”.




This statement is simply ignorant, and reflects a lack of double rifle experience. An accurate rifle is an accurate rifle, period, no matter how many barrels it has. Sure, there are plenty of cheap, poorly regulated 9.3 doubles floating around that aren't much use beyond short range, especially in Europe. But there are also plenty of good quality double rifles that are very accurate, and their useful range limited only by sighting equipment. I've shot Tony's 9.3 and it's very accurate. I watched him shoot a coyote with it at 275 yards. We were in the middle of a hay meadow and there was no rest available, but he hit it with both barrels. The kudu he shot at 300 yards didn't have a snowball's chance in hell.

If the 9.3X74R and the 9.3X62 are not decent all round African cartridges, then the .375 isn't either. Good luck trying to sell that argument. They give up very little to the .375. Indeed, Zimbabwe PH and veterinarian Kevin Robertson, author of "The Perfect Shot", suggests downloading the .375 a bit - which makes the .375 identical to the 9.3s.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: 500grains]
      #66887 - 13/12/06 04:36 AM

I remembered that I also shot a guinea fowl and a giraffe with the 9,3x74R.
I use 286gr Nosler Partitions, 286gr Woodleigh Softs, and 286 gr Woodleigh Solids. Much better bullets than most factory 9,3 loads.

The cape buff was shot facing me at @60 yards, frontal chest with a 286 Woodleigh Soft. He was down and dead in less than 40 yards. He is the only cape buff that I have killed with one shot.

I have taken seven elephants, four at 6 yards or under.
Only one with the 9,3.

I have also used a 450 No2 and a 450/400 double in Africa.
No doubt they are superior for big dangerous game.

However, actually the 9,3 has proven to be every bit as effective as the larger bores.

Personally I would prefer the 9,3x74R double to ANY bolt gun in a charge situation.


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Preacher
.224 member


Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #66888 - 13/12/06 04:49 AM

You´re right once again:
It´s my pleasure to introduce you some of my guns; a pitty that can´t take a picture of another 9,3 that´s at the gunsmither to fit an scope, and a 450 british hammer for sleeving its poor barrels.

Aug. Francotte on 9,3x74R, AYA on 9,3x74R and a bolt action 9,3x62



A Simson 7x65 with the AYA


The only target I keep (I still don´t know why. Poorly accurate as everyone can see.


My kindest regards


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Preacher
.224 member


Reged: 17/07/06
Posts: 41
Loc: Guinea
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: NE450No2]
      #66892 - 13/12/06 04:54 AM

Thank you very much 450 for your tender answer.
Please do accept my excuses once again. It was totally out of my intention to offend.

True regards, gentleman.


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Chasseur
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Reged: 18/11/03
Posts: 771
Loc: Hunting classic Indian game!
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: Preacher]
      #66898 - 13/12/06 07:42 AM

Perhaps I can add my two cents as way of mediation.

I've hunted on both sides of the Atlantic, and spent a fair amount of time talking with European hunters, shooters, gun store owners, etc. I also know many American hunters who shoot 9.3s.

My crude observation leads me to the opinion that Europeans in the past 10 years or so tend to undervalue the 9.3x74r and the 9.3x62 and Americans tend to overvalue them.

I'll explain. I think the tendency in Europe comes from these being "old" calibers that have been around for about 100 years and people have used successfully on big game for all that time. Now in the past 30 years or so as big game hunting as expanded (at the expense of small game, similar to the changes in US with the demise of upland hunting, and the rise of deer hunting) many European hunters have become more and more interested in "new cartridges" in particular magnums and others. When I talking with my French hunting buddies I get amazed at how much they love the 300WM for all sorts of hunting: driven roe deer and boar, stalking, etc. I personally don't care for the cartridge. Another funny one is the 35 Whelan, a fairly popular cartridge in France in the past few years, where its rather obscure" (to put it charitably) here in the US. I've heard many European "magnum" users talk rather disparagingly about the 9.3s as too old, slow, and having a highly arched trajectory. Much like here in the US many "classic" cartridges get slammed for being, well old: 30-06, 270, 375 etc. New and sexy has to best right? Its funny when I with my European hunting buddies because I'm always looking at or carrying old European double guns and drillings, while they are all carrying or buying brand new "short magnum, synthetic stocked," bolt action rifles and wearing the latest camo from the Cabelas catalogue

So the poor old 9.3s "drop too fast and are no good for shooting past 150 meters," etc is now often heard. I think these comments sometimes go too far. Sure are the 9.3s ideal long range hunting rounds for shots beyond 400m? No, but how many people actually need rifles that can do that kind of shooting, or are actually capable to consistently make those shots? For example, I think for European style driven hunts the 9.3s are a better choice than a 300WM, less recoil, heavier bullet, etc. Why put up with that much recoil for a flat shooting gun when you are shooting animals less than 91m?

On the other side of the pond, many savvy American shooters escaped the "magumitise" in the past 10 years or so and have "discovered" these classic European hunting cartridges like the 9.3s. This combined with a wide variety of good and rather inexpensive rifles (both doubles and CZs and company for the 9.3x62) has made them very chic in the past couple of years. I should know I use both as my main rifles. So while these are excellent cartridges, perhaps we go too far in praising them as "perfect dangerous game cartridges." Again, what’s “new and sexy” has to be the best, right? I have NO experience dangerous game hunting other than black bears, and I don't really count them. So what I think is just my limited opinion, but I think an ideal dangerous game round would be larger: 450, 416, 500 etc. BUT, I think the 9.3s can get the job done if needed. So not ideal, but certainly capable.

So perhaps we can all meet in the middle somewhere? (Now I feel I should get out my guitar and sing some hippie song... , "come on people now, love on your brother…")

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: Preacher]
      #66902 - 13/12/06 09:19 AM

Preacher, I have to agree that the 9.3X74R, or the 9.3X62 are not the best choice for standing a charge of an elephant. However, I'm one of those who has witnessed the shots discribed in these posts that you call "SILLY"! The word "SILLY" in your post is taken, by me, to mean you do not believe these things actually happened. I assure you these happenings are a fact!

It is true that Tony (450#2)is an exceptional shot with any rifle, or handgun,being a retired police sniper, and that is part of his success,by placeing shots where they belong! That fact has nothing to do with the capability of the two cartridges,in question to do the job. I have several double rifles from 8mm to 577, and one of those is a 9.3X74R S/S double rifle that I have little concern about useing for Cape Buffalo, or the cats with proper bullets in MY hand loads. With factory ammo for a rifle that is chambered for a cartridge that is over 100 yrs old, must be loaded down, because there are many rifles around that are not only made of poor steel, but are simply worn out, and the owner will use the new ammo in them. SO! Haveing said that, I think your useing the opinion of RWS about useing their ammo is what I would tend to call silly!

I too, have some experience in Africa, not on Elephant, but on Cape Buffalo, and hippo, as well as many of the larger plains game species, and like you, if my 470NE is available, then the Ele will get an issueance from both her barrels,POP POP, but if the ele showed a tendancy to charge me with the little 9.3 double in my hands, he would get shot at least twice, with it as well. That might mean R.I.P for me, but I'd bet it would for the ele as well!

I see no need for a donnibrook here, as long as it is legal, use what you want, and let others use their choice as well!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: Preacher]
      #66907 - 13/12/06 11:21 AM

Quote:

NitroX, the very best point by RWS on 9,3x74R ever, was a solid. They quit production.
The 9,3x74R was developed as the continental answer to the .375HH, and in those days was loaded very closely to it.
Nor the strong load and the solid point either, worked.
Those germans must be stupid to let the .375HH "¿superimpossed you said?, ok that.


\

Preacher

"Those germans must be stupid to let the .375HH "¿superimpossed you said?, ok that. "

No I said nothing like that.

***

While I prefer my .450 for elephant and buffalo, a fair number of water buffalo have fallen to my 9.3mm, so I do not have a problem using it on them. I would try it on elephant as well if I wished to.

I agree with you that in certain situations it is less than ideal eg in a charge situation. No one could argue a 9.3mm or even a .375 is the best thing to carry if an elephant or buffalo is charging. Usually the bigger the better.

However a cool, clear headed accurate experienced shot can make up somewhat for a rifles deficiencies. Same as someone who might flinch with a .500 NE might completely ruin IT'S advantages.

***

Gentlemen,

Nothing wrong with a spirited debate. Preacher must feel ganged up on at the moment, but he did ask for it .

But please everyone keep the debate "above the belt". Please no personal comments.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
Posts: 942
Re: Silly things about the 9,3x74R [Re: Preacher]
      #67058 - 14/12/06 06:15 PM

Preacher
No offense intended, then none taken.

I never set out to prove anything with or about the 9,3x74R.

I bought the Chapuis because I could not find a decent medium British double rifle, that I could afford.

I wanted a lighter less recoiling double for use on deer and pigs on my deer lease as an understudy to my 450 No2 and my 450/400.

By using these 3 doubles I discovered how good double rifles were as general hunting rifles, not just for charges of DG.
I began to use the 9,3 more and more in the States. The more I used it the more I liked it. Then I took it to Africa with my 450 No2 in June 2004.

This year it made 2 trips to Africa.

The calibre has never let me down.

While I do think the 450/400 and the 450 No2 are better for buff and elephants, I feel I can do anything with the 9,3 that I could do with a 375 H&H.

Many PH's recommend that a client bring a 375 as their biggest rifle.

And as I have said before I prefer the 9,3 double to any calibre bolt action, especially in the case of a charge, as it gives me 2 chances to brain the beast.


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