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empirevr
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8 bore vs 4 bore
      #62238 - 08/09/06 02:40 AM

So i have gathered what information i can online.......but there is very little.

So im asking you guys,with your vastly superior wisdom.....

What was the more popular of the bpe rifles in africa and india? the 8 bores get more mention now.....more seem to be for sale.....

The 4 bores i heard one chap say only 100 were made....

If so,how many 8 bores were made?

And just for my curiosity......was the .577 bpe the bp equivilent of todays .375 h&h???

Thankyou

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62240 - 08/09/06 03:00 AM

The 8's were much more popular in Africa and India too, I believe.
: As far as the 4 bores go, wasn't Selous' gun a chopped off Dutch single barrel fowler?
: There were many of those made for the market hunters.
: The .577 BPE would have more effect on large beasts than the .375H&H, .375 Weatherby or .375 Ultra mags. It is difficult for Volkswagen Beetles to do the work of a Locomotive. Even the 12 bore round ball ctg. loads exceed the smack of a .375.imho, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62242 - 08/09/06 04:47 AM

Thanks Daryl

So, was the .577 bpe ever used as an elephant/rhino/buffalo gun? where may i obtain stories? Is it a 4,000 ft lb round? or more?

Back to the 8's and 4's.....

I remember once reading an argument saying the 8's had superior penetration to the 4's,due to the sheer size of the 4's rounds vs i suppose its increase in energy.

The 4's seem amazingly rare, and the 8's very much less so.....

What was the main round of the day anyway? as an all rounder,if you like? (i.e. capable of use against an ele bull with correct shot,and good for everything else large/medium also)

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62244 - 08/09/06 08:35 AM

I'm sure it was and recall Baker or Bell may have used one one on such beasts as well.
: John Taylor's good book, African Rifles and Ctgs., available at most Libraries (I think) may have thoughts on it. I'm sure it does, as he mentions the .450 BPE quite favourably for up to and including elephant with hardened lead bullets.
: One thing one must remember, is foot pounds of energy is not a good measure of killing power. It is impossible for an animal weighing 200 pounds to be hit with a impact of thousands of pounds, yet stay on it's feet. The formula makes no sense.
: The big bores kill by disrupting organs and blood vessels by hitting with a porojectile that will do adequate damamge and penetrate deeply enough to do that damage.
; The .45 calibre African calibres have been lumped all together as giving similar results by those who use them daily with many heads of game killed by them or observed first hand. This puts the 8,000 FPE of the .460 Weatherby in the same bracket as the 5,000 FPE of the .458Mags, factory and wildcat, while a step up to the .50 calibres, giving the same or similar FPE showed greater stopping and killing power over the .50's and another step up when ging to the .577's. This in itself should show FPE isn't a good criteria for stopping or killing power. Ther are many others, btw.
; Many of the African species, not weakened by hard winters, seem more 'bullet proof' or tougher than like weight North American game. Even at that, many North American game animals are also seemingly FPE resistant. Buffalo and Elk fit that, as the the great bears.
; Where the buffalo hunters did just fine with 2,000FPE and 2,400FPE from the really long cases, they killed well to well over 600 yards, yet today, we have guys saying buffalo are showing no impacts nor dying quickly when hit by 4,000fpe from .375's and .416's. Many accounts and letters sent to Sharps tell of bufflo dropping to the shot, yet that seemingly hasn't happened in the wilds of B.C. during the special season. 8 rounds point blank with an '06 through the lights accompanied with 27 minutes of video show he was unimpressed with that rifle's 2,800fpe each , combined energy of 22,400 foot pounds of energy. that poor 1,500 pound buffalo should have been hamburger or at lease slammed to the ground, instead of just walking around looking over the landscape, and grabbing up a mouthful of grass. What a video.
; Please don't take this the wrong way. We've been deluged with FOE numbers for many years. It's just that on most big game, those numbers have proven to mean very little if anything.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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500Nitro
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62245 - 08/09/06 08:49 AM


A mate of mine has a double 4 and a double 8.

Either way, hit a buff with one and they know it.

A person I know hit a charging buff with an 8 bore - it was charging someone else so was side on to him - and it
absolutely poleaxed it.

8 bores are more common than 4 bores by a long way
- and even more so in doubles.

H&H made a few I believe.

500 Nitro

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62246 - 08/09/06 09:23 AM

Thankyou Daryl and 'nitro

I realise that its not about ft lbs,but also realise this is a factor to some extent too....but,i have no idea how powerful the .577 bpe was/is...no info may be found online,not for ft lbs or fps....

I also cannot find any info on it being used for such a purpose,yet i agree it must have been.....i once sorely missed a 500x3" rhodda, now this in itself says nothing,but the thing is.....it was high relief engraved with buffalo.....and yes,elephant.

Now perhaps someone just wanted this on it,but if my memory serves me well the guns are usually engraved appropriately enough as per their calibre and capabilities.

Excuse my leaving the subject there.......

8 bores seem ever so much more affordable than 4 bores also, and ammunition is much more readily available as are dies and moulds and such.

I guess the post really should be; who,with what,when,where?! it seems there is no precise info anywhere, yet those of you with the right books,and or knowledge,which im sure is vastly superior to my own, can answer many of these riddles.

Were the 8's and 4's just back up stopper guns? what were the then most popular guns for general use,and even ele hunting? i.e. now we dont use .600's and .700's in general,we seem to use 450's 470's and 500's.......

Phew all very interesting,and very confusing also.

Thanks for the shared wisdom.

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62250 - 08/09/06 12:03 PM

Did not some intrepid African hunter not kill a charging buff with English coins as the projectile from his 8 bore?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62271 - 09/09/06 06:09 AM

wow

Who Daryl? amazing!

What are your opinions on the above post? and the odd Rhodda 500x3" 'elephant rifle'???

Thanks!

Ben

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bulldog563
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62273 - 09/09/06 08:10 AM

Yes, I believe it was Sir Samuel Baker and it was a Water Buffalo. Not sure if it was charging though.

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62276 - 09/09/06 08:33 AM

A rodda .500 3" is the Nitro Express, isn't it. That, of course, is in a slightly different league than the .458's and of course, badly outclasses the .45 and .50 cal BPE's.
; As far as the .577 BPE, it is reported to run 650gr. bullets at around 1,650fps. Given hardened bullets having enough penetration, it would work splendidly on all of the bigger game animals.
: Even Baker noted that a hardened ball from a 14 bore round ball double rifle, with only 5 drams (or maybe drachms) of BP would exit an Indian elephant's head. "through and through" were his words. I found my 14 bore rifle only produced 1,770fps with 330gr.2F, a mere 70fps over a 265gr. charge, so the extra powder is minimal. I think perhaps Baker meant drams afterall.
: With a mere 6 drams of 2F, it drove a ball through 30 yards of willow branches, through a rib and smashed the off shoulder of a bull moose at a range of 100 yards. The initial velocity was only 1,550fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62324 - 10/09/06 07:34 AM

Hello

No Daryl sorry the Rodda.......(why did i remember an 'h'?! my mistake sorry!) was a 500x3" black powder rifle........hence the confusion.

In fact,by English law it was and even still is 'off ticket' unless used, i.e. antique and curio calibre.........

14 bore........i have seen one or two of these for sale only,and heard no more........what is it like??? 0.71" calibre,correct?

Thanks for the help,very informative.

Any good reads on the hunters that used the 450/500/577 x3" etc for large game hunts? especially ele?

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62349 - 11/09/06 01:08 AM

Groove diameter should be .690, but with muzzleloaders, the bore diameter determines the gauge. In this case, it has a .690" bore, with .012" deep rifling, making it actually a 13 bore to the bottom of the grooves, at .714".
: In Forsyth's day, a groove diameter of .005" and 104" of twist in a 24 to 26" set of tubes (double ML rifle) would make it .700" groove diameter. A .675" ball would require about a .018" patch, whereas I use a .684" ball with .018" patch in my deeper grooves.
: A very recent test put a 3 shot group at 100 meters, shooting off my elbows, into 1" X 7/8" group on centres using the Express sights. We made the rifle in 1986 using a Green River River Works barrel.
: That .500 3" BPE was a popular one for India. A close friend has one such double rifle marked on the rib, in gold script & in Italics, Made of Maharaja ????????????. I think it is a John Blisset, but haven't seen the rifle for many years - memories, you know. It shot splendidly and together with Lyman's, .515 conical 450gr. bullet and around 130gr. r 140gr. Pyrodex. I remember shooting 2 1/2" with 2 lefts and 2 rights at 100 yards.(before change to metric system)

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (11/09/06 01:12 AM)

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62357 - 11/09/06 06:11 AM

Thankyou Daryl

Sounds like a nice gun you have there!

You know given what you have said,and having seen some of the horrendous pricing on the 8 bore doubles, i wonder if i may purchase a 500/577 and perhaps an 8 shotty,and make slugs for it?! the only 8 gauge i have seen for sale presently,a tolley, is $10,000 US and then i have no idea what condition its bores are in.

Normally they seem to be nearer $15,000

But i have seen a .577 hollis for $3,200 and a w.c scott for $4,000 same calibre.

And...........and English 8 shotty for $600!!!!

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62378 - 11/09/06 02:57 PM

I assume you mean smoothbore 8? With little or no chokes, round balls can be loaded just as easily as shot.
: The ball must pass through the choke, if there is one. If no choke, no problem. A series of wads is needed to take up extra space in the case, along with protecting the ball from the powder. Friends of mine used cloth patched balls in 12 bore shells to shoot balls from their full choked duck guns in case a moose wandered by while they were shooting ducks. This happened enough for them to always pack a few round ball loads. With good fit, the balls were much more accurate, and more powerful & deeper penetration than factory slugs. Their loads duplicated the African 12 bore ctg. round ball loads of the 1880's & 90's.
: I shortened the bores of a "Fluid Steel' double underbite, cheap English gun from the early 1900's. At 26", I put a blade front sight, with a flip-up express-type sight. I also mounted a scope for load developement. After a LOT of experimentation, I had both barrels printing together at 100 yards and shooting from 6 to 8" groups, 2 lefts, 2 rights very consistantly. I figured this to be my maximum range on deer or moose, merely due to the accuracy of the smoothbore.
: I developed both smokeless and black powder loads with the smokeless loads producing the same velocities as the black powder ones, and duplicating the loads used in the BP 12 bore black powder ctgs. for the early round ball rifles.
: I see no reason why you couldn't do this with an 8 or 10 bore as well. Those 545 gr. balls I shot did pack quite a whallop. The big bores would be devestating on game.
: Forsyth noted that some large bored ML'ers for the mid 1800's were rifled too fast to take heavy loads for tiger, buffalo and elephant, so the owners merely loaded them appropriately for the game involved and limited themselves to smoothbore range as the balls stripped in their very fast twists, giving no better accuracy than a shotgun loaded with ball.
; You can order a proper sized mould (you tell him the size you want according to your bore and choke size) form Jeff Tanner of England. A google search will give you his web site. The mould quality is good and I have 2 of them, ordered separately. I think they're still less than $30.00 which is pretty cheap for a custom mould diameter made to your specs. An 8 bore would work for everything, anywhere, as long as you develop good loads and don't overextend your accuracy range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62390 - 12/09/06 01:00 AM

Sounds super......thankyou once again Daryl.

But what of the use of slugs in such a gun? i realise that the 8 bore rifles were sometimes smooth bore,and fired some form of conical projectile,or rifled projectile, am i misinformed here?

Hence my thought is,that there is little difference between the rifle and the shotgun,bar shorter barrels and express sights,correct?

Just to reconcile my needs for .577 info etc.......

Can you point me to any good books featuring use of this bpe calibre on ele and rhino?

Thanks again

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62395 - 12/09/06 05:51 AM

Conicals are of no use in BP smoothbored guns. They require rifling to stabilize and a tumbling conical reduces needed penetration.
: The 'rifled' slugs sold today for 12'sa and other gauges, the Foster-type, do not spin in the air, but have grooves in the surface to reduce bore contact so they can be shot through any choke without damage. The grooves look good, but don't go all the way to the bottom of the slug, thus prevent the passage of air which in theory might cause the slug to spin. Recovered factory loaded rifled slugs are almost smooth on the outside, with little left of the rifling marks, and this testing was from a non-choked gun. The slugs, undersize at the start, obturate in the bore to fit it, become mch shorter in length and thus the 'lands' on the slug compress against the bore's wall. The obturation is due to the rapid shotgun powders used, and of course, due to the very soft nature, almost pure lead of the slug. This also goes for the Brenneke-type slugs in that there is virtually no spin in the air.
: Round balls should be the only projectiles shot in smooth bored BP guns and are what many of such guns were designed for. The exception of the "Cape Guns" which shot short conicals. These were spun by the short, but deeply rifled 'chokes' on the muzzle end of the tubes. I've always had a passion to rifle the chokes of a modern 12 bore to see the effect, if any. In these, a patched or cose fitting round ball would be the easiest to get to spin enough to stabilize as the round ball requires less spin than any slug.
: Rifled slugs do gain a modicum of accuracy due to the shuttle-cock effect of the hollow base. The hollow base concentrates the slug's weight at the nose, causing the slug's rear to not try and pass the nose in flight. They apear to tip, straighten, tip, straighten, etc, etc. This works fairly well, but rarely do they shoot better than a proper fitting round ball, as proven in my tests and those of my friends. Too, this almost tumbling slug, will lack the penetrative power of the heavier, round ball.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62399 - 12/09/06 08:33 AM

Thankyou

Right now i see...

But what of nitro proofed 8 bore shotty's? what were the round balls designed for in these guns then? big game use? deer use?

Would love to hear more info from you on the 500x3 and 577x3 also.

Thanks very much Daryl.

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62421 - 13/09/06 02:42 AM

Round ball BP loads for ctg. guns were designed for shooting all the animals of chase, be they elephant, buffalo, rhino, etc.
: By the time smokeless loads came about, there were no more round ball loads that I know of as all the gauges had switched to conical shooting.
: Baker once said, that in having a slug mould made for his big double, destroyed it's killing/stopping power and led him into dangerous scrapes with animals. Prior to this, it had never failed to floor a charging elephant.
: That speaks quite highly for large bore balls.
: I've no experience with a .577. I did shoot a Wesley Richards 12 bore bar and wood a bit. Nice gun.
: My friend has a 6 bore double ball and shot gun with 34" or 36" tubes. It was a heavy beast, and H&H re-furbished it. When returned to will, it looked brand new. Absoltuely beautiful. They'd re-bored it to 5 bore, but other than that, made no other changes. It still had the rear sight lump, a flat-topped block with platinum line in the centre.
: I seem to recall it was regulated for 8 drams of powder with round ball, which is 218gr. with a 7 bore patched ball. This load would probably do about 1,200fps, maybe 1,300fps. Wil has shot only pellets from it, and did very well on 16 yard trap at the local club, 20 out of 25 and with no chokes, but 3 ounces of shot.


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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62422 - 13/09/06 04:38 AM

I read somewhere that one of the great hunters used his 8 bore for all his hunting needs......deer,elephant...and so on...

Your information is very much appreciated,Daryl.

I have a good idea of what your talking about,in the sense also that i have seen both rifled and smooth bore 8g rifles for sale.....

So,only later the conical rifles came? and when? about 1870? i have seen cape rifles even in 4 bore with one rifled and one smooth barrel.

What your saying is of great interest to me, as it seems one may find or even create a rifle that works as both a shotgun,for small game and a rifle firing balls,for large game. In retrospect,i see that if one was to add some express sights to an 8 shotty, then one would have a very versatile and enjoyable firearm. BP of course,as i cannot see how one could do such things with a nitro version......though to be honest,i may never have seen a smokeless 8 or 4 gauge....shotgun,that is.

Am i correct in the above thoughts,or not?

The .577's are a genuine big game rifle,but of course do not have the horse power as it were,nor this versatility we can see with a smoothbore.

Are these smoothbore rifles not called paradox rifles? Testing my memory here......

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62428 - 13/09/06 09:02 AM

The conicals must have come on the scene in the 70's or early 80's. Note, too, that round ball guns were probably used well after they became obsolete, as did flintlock rifle and shotgun continue in use after the 19820's.
: The paradox had rifled chokes with smooth bores and shot the short, pointed, shouldered slugs with one groove, used for an impressed crimp of the shell casing. I expect there was a lubricating disk below the bullet, between wads.
: It is said they didn't screw up shot patterns, which is difficult to believe as any rotation of the shot column would tend to spread it.

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Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62430 - 13/09/06 09:53 AM

I see.......

So tell me Daryl, what sort of speed and energy should i be able to get from a bp smooth bore 8 gauge firing balls?

This has me stumped.

Ben

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500Nitro
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62438 - 13/09/06 03:29 PM


Read Taylor's book and some of the old school books
plus COTW.

Thet have most of the info you need.

500 Nitro

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62439 - 13/09/06 08:50 PM

Thankyou nitro....

John 'Pondoro' Taylor......which of his many books is the better with regards to the older rounds? He himself was a 375 H&H chap was he not?

Already asked two good 'smiths to keep an eye out for an earlier mauser .375 H&H........

Model 66 any good anyone???

Anyway,back on track........

COTW???

So, i guess if i can convert a shotty 8 English to a multi-use gun by adding sights....and chopping the barrel by some inches?!.....then it seems a good idea.

The 8 bore rifles seem amazingly hard to get hold of.......i have seen one for sale for £6,000/$12,000......but this is a paradox, yet it has long barrels(33") and no leaf sights or rear sights at all.....pot luck shooting?????

The only other 8 for sale is $22,000 which is a lot.......

One was for sale for $10,500 but has gone it seems......

W.W. Greener were the main maker of such guns.......for both ball and conical......

Where have their many guns gone to? made for work,beautiful things......

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62449 - 14/09/06 12:50 AM

Because I don't know the weight of the ball, I cannot figure out the fpe. FPE has little or no relationship to actual likking power. I know there are numbers assigned to ctgs. and their loads, but the numbers mean nothing. You cannot compare a .45 2-7/8 Sharps to a .30/06, power wise, yet they produce the same fpe., not can you compare my .50/70 to a .22 Hornet's hot load in a CZ, yet they produce the same fpe. Thus you cannot compare a round ball from an 8 bore to a .375 or .300 Ultra Mag, or .300 mag, yet they produce, probably, similar fpe.
; The 8 bore is & must be, a smashing round on heaviest game, depending on how it's loaded. The others are small bore rifles that lack the pounding force of the large bores.
; Sorry, but this is the best answer I can come up with.
: Loaded with an appropriate charge and a patched, or wadded round ball, the 8 bore develops tremendous power on animals.
: You should be able to achieve from 1,300fps to 1,500fps velocity from it's round ball. I have a drawn full scale duplication of a group fired by an 8 bore smooth gun with round ball, fired at 60 yards. It contains 3 lefts and 3 rights. The group is a vertical one, 5 1/2" on centres. The group is 5 inches tall and 2-1/2" wide. Another, shot by an 8 bore rifle, had 8 shots at 50 yards in a square 2-3/8" X 1-9/16". This may have had rifled bores of 20" to 22" length. They seem not to have liked longer barrels in the thumpers.
: If you shot a true 8 bore ball, it would weight 7000 divided by 8 = 875gr. At 1,500fps, this would generate 4,375fpe at the muzzle. Out to 50 -75 yards, it would maintain quite splendid power.
: W.W.Greener's 11th Edition of "The Gun and it's Development" states " Possibly the best weapon for large game is this 8 bore with short barrels; but, using the light spherical bullet only, and eight of more drams of powder, + + + + + + + and the velocity and penetrtion at the short ranges at which large game is almost invariably shot will be more than sufficient to penetrate and kill even the largest elephant, whether head or side shot be taken. the accuracy of the large bore rifles and ball guns is very good up to 60 yards with the smooth and 120 with the rifle. The Author (Greener) has in his possession the skull of a large elephant shot by Mr. Carter (smoothbore) of Madras, which shows that the ball from a similar 8 - calibre(bore)rifle(smoothbore) of the author's manufacture--passed right through the skull fro the right to left side, the wound increasing in magnitude as the bullet flattened." 10 drams was the charge, equal to 273 gr. of good grade BP.
: Note that while I have written quite a bit on this subject, I have no first hand experience shooting an 8 bore. My only epxerience is shooting several 12's rifled and smooth, with balls and conicals. The 12 is capable, while the 8 is most impressive, now, as it ws back in 1911, when Greener published the 9th edition.

--------------------
Daryl


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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62458 - 14/09/06 05:03 AM

Well...

Thankyou once again Daryl that is some absolutely superb information you are giving me.

I fully agree with your statements,and of course i realise the difference that the size and weight of the round makes......merely, i was talking of actual preferences,and perhaps uses, then and now.......it seems knock down value has been exchanged for penetration values.

Now most of all the hunters use the .375 H&H it seems, yet before this,i can only guess the 500x3 bp or 577x3 pb,or perhaps even the smaller 450x3/3.25 was the main gun/round used generally......the most proliferent are the 500x3" bpe's.......

I adore your 8 bore info,and have no claim to having ever handled one let alone use it.

I once read something in a book i appear to have lost....due to moving no doubt...that had much info on W.W. Greener. It stated that the 8 bore was their most popular model,and more so...round. This was because the 4 bore,did not give such good penetration due to its sheer size versus its fpe/fps which im guessing wasnt at max,as it already was known to be horrid to fire.

I cannot remember if they gave preference to ball or conical, but the rifles advertised fired both.(paradox,no?)

Seeing as you have used the superb 12 bores, what can you say is the difference in strength between them and a normal 12 gauge shotgun of the age? half the weight,no?

Basically,if one was to create a smooth-bore rifle from an 8 shotty, what would need to be done,and would it be as safe,strong,and usable as the original rifle version?

Thankyou

Ben

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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62467 - 14/09/06 10:03 AM

I already convered some differences between a 12 bore loaded with a solid round ball. There is a bit of difference between pure lead and hardened lead. Balls hardened with antimony, such as using Wheel Weight metal, or a 50/50 mix of pure and WW metal, gives the needed strength to punch thourhg bones, large and small without expanding. I've used hardened 14 bore balls for just such a purpose on shoudler bones of 1,000 pound moose, without damage to the balls and excellent penetration. My good friend, with a .75 cal rifle, had trouble keeping a .735" WW ball inside a moose, until he reduced his load to 4 drams.
: With it's almost same sized balls, the 12 bore has similar results, ie: spectacular.
: The modern 12 bore slug loads, those with 1 and 1-1/4 ounce hollow based slugs, shoot fairly well, but not generally as well as properly loaded round balls. The "pumpkin balls" of yesteryear, gave the same sub-standard accuracy as the common musket did of the 18th century and for identical reasons - very much undersized balls. My own load developement with round balls in the 12 bore showed excellent accuracy, good enough for deer shooting to a full 100 ayrds, and that from a side by side, lefts and rights, hitting the same poi.
: As most of the round ball smoothbores in 8 bore were of short barrels, I'd not push the matter with outsized shot barrels. Therefore, I'd reduce the lengths to a more comfortable 22" or perhps 24". Note that Greener's suggested weights were around 11-1/2 to 12 pounds for an 8 bore shooting round balls.
: Properly measuring the bores will show the size balls needed. I'd keep them as close to bore size as possible, yet sill able to load in brass shotshells for that bore size. Experimentation with cushion, lubricating and card wads, along with perhaps cloth patching the balls will eventually reward the shooter with the required accuracy.
: J Tanner of England can make the requisit mould and they're of excellent quality, as the two I have are.
: A google search will give you his online address along with pictures and instructions for ordering one of his brass or bronze moulds.

--------------------
Daryl


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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62468 - 14/09/06 10:30 AM

Daryl,

I recall a prior thread in which you discussed your experience with round balls in the 12 gauge shotgun. I seem to remember you seat the ball in a plastic wad with the petals cut off. Would you elaborate on this? I am particularly interested in your technique in a choke bore. Have you ever experienced damage to the choke or any adverse signs? What accuracy results?

I have a nice J.P. Sauer 12 gauge that's choked M&F. I would love to safely shoot round balls through it, but I won't consider doing so if there is danger to the gun or to the shooter.

Thanks,
Curl



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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: CptCurl]
      #62473 - 14/09/06 11:31 AM

Sure thing Curl.
; I collected spend trap wads at the local trap range, just to curb costs to nil - 'course, gas wasn't as expensive as it is now. I then cut the petals and compression system off with side cutters. This left me with the base cup-wads of plastic.
; For BP loads, it is necessary to isolate the plastic base wad from the powder charge as BP will melt the plastic onto the bore - something you don't want.
: I used slightly smaller than 14 bore balls at .684" diameter. A normal full choke is .690"(14 bore), ie: 40 points (.040") of choke off .730" = .690". A modified choke is about .710" in diameter, IMP mod about .700" etc.
: Now, the reason for the plastic base wads. Due to the cup and bore sized outside diameter(already fired and expanded, they hold the ball in the centre of the bore, regardless of it's size. (Cup up to hold the ball in the centre of the bore)
; In a cylinder bore, you could use a .730" ball from a custom J.Tanner mould. In a full choked barrel, so no damage would result to the choke, a ball diameter of .690" would work perfectly. Lyman and Lee both make .690" ball moulds. That ball, in pure lead, would weigh about 490gr. to 495gr. The undersized ball I used worked just fine, even in my non-choked bores, a tight .725" for each.
; To load - one card wad on the powder charge, starting with 3 drams, going upwards in 1/4 dram jumps. A dram is 27.3gr., so 3drams is 82gr. Over the card wad, is a cushion wad, then the plastic cup wad with the cup toward the shell top. Then the ball, then I used the cone crimp head of my old Press to press the plastic down onto the ball. The wad colunm is adjusted so the ball is almost comvered with the plastic of the shot-shell. I didn't try any in paper shells. I merely used AA hulls.
; I found room to work all the way up to the biggest BP laod used in 12 bore, 7 drams or 191gr. 1F powder. That one kicks like h$ll in a 7 pound gun, btw. I satisfied myself with 150gr. charges, which is 5-1/2 drams. This gave me 1,500 or 1,550fps, I can't remember exactly and was the moderate RB load for Africa. this one shot parallel in my gun, both barrels printing side by side all the way out to 100 yards. A 12" steel plate, 2-1/2" thick would dance and dance upon impacts with this load, laft/right/left/right time after time, offhand, whereas a fellow's 7mm mag with 175gr. bullets barely was able to cause the plate to swing gently back and forth a few times. After about 7 hits from the 12 bore, the holding chain broke. it sure impressed the bloke with the 7mm mag. He wante dto know the FPE, of course and wondered how the 12 bore could make it dance when his gun, producing much more fpe, barely made the plate move. As well, he had to shoot off the bench to hit it. I elected not to shoot off the bench unless I was testing loads.
; I then worked up a velocity duplication load using SR4756 powder. This was very easy, and had no more recoil (or presure) than a duck load - beautiful to shoot, but had the same power as the punishing BP load. BTW, the punishing BP load produces less breech pressure than the smokeless load.
: In summary - decap and re-prime - Black Powder 1F - 1/4" card wad, up to 2 fibre wads or more if room, plastic cup, cup upwards, ball, crimp pedals over ball.
: Decap and reprime - smokeless powder (Lyman's shotshell book has loads to try) card wad and fibre wad, plastic wad, cup up, ball, crimp.
: Adjust the wads to allow proper height for crimping the plastic over the ball. I found I could also do a normal folded crimp if rood allowed. This, I used mostly for smokeless loads, for ease of telling them apart from BP loads that only had the plastic folded partly over the ball. I hope this explains the procedure.
; Greener's book shows a cross-section of an 8 bore brass case loaded with a round ball. In it, the BP goes almost to the top of the case, leaving room for a card wad, and a cupped fibre wad, the 1/2 the ball sticking out the case mouth. With brass cases, this is how I would have loaded black powder. The "Old West Scrounger" and maybe Trackofthewolf.com has 12 bore brass cases for sale. The typical load for the 8 bore round ball loads, for both rifled and smoothbore guns was 8 to 12 drams.
; BTW- no damage to chokes, even with the .684 ball tightly patched in cotton as done by my friends for shooting moose while duck hunting from their full choked guns. I never got around to trying cloth patched balls, but don't see why they wouldn't provide even better accuracy than I got, due to their tight fit and foulintg softening traits. The boys reported 5" groups at 50 yards form their modern pump guns & holing both sides of a 45 (IMP) gallon drum wit WW round balls. Factory Foster slugs merely made lead splashes without indentation.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62475 - 14/09/06 12:49 PM

Daryl,

Thanks again!

Curl



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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: CptCurl]
      #62476 - 14/09/06 12:53 PM

Daryl,

Another question:

If you use a brass case with a .690 ball doesn't that leave the payload really loose in the case, since the case walls are much thinner than plastic or cardboard?

Curl



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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62479 - 14/09/06 01:14 PM

empirevr,

Champlins has a very nice Holland 8 Paradox for 21 and a Rodda fully rifled 8 bore for 18.5. If they are in (or near) your price range may be worth a call.

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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62482 - 14/09/06 05:20 PM

Hey guys great thread and posts! Keep up the good information!

Thanks Daryl!

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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: Chasseur]
      #62483 - 14/09/06 06:43 PM

Hi all

Thankyou once again for the excellent information,Daryl.

'Curl i'm sure you'll have fun with that shotty using Daryls method!!!

Bulldog, thanks for the link but those prices are a tad high...... i know where there is an 8 bore paradox H&H rifle for £6,000/$12,000 and to be fair, i also know where i can get a double 8 bore English shotgun for just £975/$1900......

My budget depends on the fact that i intend to purchase some other firearms also.

Any 8 bore/shotgun/rifle will be my primary pride and joy, so this i will spend more on naturally.

But, Daryl has me interested........using his method i can create my own smooth bore 8, for a much lower price,same results as a paradox basically, and perhaps in much better overall condition than a same age rifle would be in...(due to the much higher availability of the shotguns,compared to the rifles)

I guess its a tough one,but i can say that the 8 bore paradox i have seen has no express sights.....this i dislike....was it a conversion job also?

Should i post a photo?

Ben

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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: CptCurl]
      #62490 - 15/09/06 12:25 AM

Good question, Curl. For shooting in a choked gun, the ball must be under choke size. That is .690" in a normal full choked 12 bore. The extra tight chokes as made for shooting turkey's or steel shot may be tighter yet, I don't know, haven't measured any of them.
: I have only used plastic cases for my loads. I'm assuming the brass shells are thinner, and have more room. This will changed the wads needed, etc. Trackofthewolf.com has all the different gauges of wads available.
; My idea of the lower plastic cup for centering the ball in the barrel was a good one, however, other articles can be used. Use your imagination.
: A wad punch, like a 1/2" or 3/8 arch punch, chucked in an electirc drill and run through a fiber wad, or several 1/4" card wads, will make a centering device that will hold the ball in the centre of the bore. Load the card wad or wads on the powder, then or holed fiber or card wads, set the ball in the depression and it will be held in the centre of the bore for a perfect launch. This centering device is only to prevent the ball from bouncing off the sides of the bore on it's trip out to the muzzle. This was why the 18th century muskets were innaccurate and why the pumpkin ball 12 bore round ball loads of the pre-foster slug era were also inaccurate.
: Something must be used to centre the ball - this is only limited by your imagination. As well, for filling in the centre of shot patterns from cylinder bored gun, the holed wads will keep extra pellets in the centre of the pattern for you. Francis Sell, loaded his heavy 20 bore goose loads like this in the 1960's. Nothing new, just old ideas used for different applications.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62497 - 15/09/06 05:30 AM

Some truly superb information there Daryl,which i shall doubtlessly use.

Found a nice 8g single Webley for £1,100.....but then i saw a double somewhere for £600.

An off topic question which requires your expertise....

One often sees old hammer rifles marked as being 'nitro proof'....now what does this entail? what does this mean? That the rifle has been re-proofed to nitro loads?

Well if so,as i believe so,surely this doesnt do a rifle originally made for BP any good at all? Or,can one find older hammer guns in .500 nitro?(3" case)

Thanks.

Ben

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500Nitro
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62498 - 15/09/06 05:38 AM


empirevr

Regarding your question about
One often sees old hammer rifles marked as being 'nitro proof'....now what does this entail? what does this mean? That the rifle has been re-proofed to nitro loads?
Well if so,as i believe so,surely this doesnt do a rifle originally made for BP any good at all? Or,can one find older hammer guns in .500 nitro?(3" case)

Just because a gun is a hammer gun doesn't mea it had to be black powder. Nitro powders came into being well (quite a few years) before Hammer guns stopped being made but it took a while for the proof laws to catch up.

I had a Holland 500/450 3 1/4" Nitro Hammer Double Rifle and I have seen a number of Rigby's.

Though when buying, it is wise to check that it is not just a reproof.

Hope this helps.

500 Nitro

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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62499 - 15/09/06 05:41 AM

Thankyou kindly sir

So if reproofed,there would be both BP and NE marks......yes?

If original, just NE marks?

What sort of trouble arises with a reproofed gun? surely this is very dangerous.......??

Thankyou

Ben

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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62500 - 15/09/06 05:50 AM

Original full nitro (not reproved from black) underlever hammer guns are relatively common. Hammer guns were made in quantity much later than most think. Also, original nitro proof was available in the UK from 1887. If you like hammer guns, you need to learn the proof marks. Nitro re-proof from black is easy to spot. There will be two full sets of proof marks. It is dangerous to fire full nitro in a rifle only proved for black. The purpose of re-proof to nitro is to establish that it is safe in that particular rifle.

Champlins had a really nice William Evans underlever hammergun in .450/.400 Nitro for sale some years ago. That rifle was made in 1937.
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62501 - 15/09/06 05:58 AM


So if reproofed,there would be both BP and NE marks......yes?
IN THEORY YES, Although sometimes the old BP Proof arks can be worn down or invisible. It will also have a REPROOF Mark stamp.

If original, just NE marks? YES, if originally Nitro Proofed and done at a time when Nitro Proof Marks were stamped.
Just remember that Nitro Proof guns exist that do not have Nitro Proof marks.

What sort of trouble arises with a reproofed gun? surely this is very dangerous.......??
Not always so - I am always a bit cautious but if it has been reproofed correctly which if done at one of the proof houses it would have been it should be OK.

Some BP were built like brick outhouses, especially when before they had worked out they didn't need the guns to be so big and heavy so some of these could easily be reproofed to Nitro (or Nitro for Black)

My concern is when people reproof a gun to increase it's value and that gun passes proof but you know that the action was never designed to take such a cartridge. It will pass proof but over time will shoot loose.
ie Cogswell & Harrison 375 2 1/2" NE Boxlock DR's - often seen around rechambered to 375 Flanged Magnum (the H&H Cartridge).
This action just wouldn't take the pressure and would shoot loose over a period of time. After all, why do Holland & Holland sell this cartridge and Purdey the 369 Purdey with a reinforce action design ? Because they worked out it needed it.

I have a small Webley style actioned Hammerless Boxlock in 360 2 7/16th BPE, This could easily be reproofed to NE except it would ruin the collector value.

Hope this helps.

500 Nitro

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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62502 - 15/09/06 06:23 AM

Thankyou sirs.

Well,the item in question looks somewhat older than 1937.....

Also though,at £2,250 seems to be an amazing bargain for a .500 NE of any sort......im wondering if this 'nitro proofed' statement is merely a mistake...certainly doesnt seem worthwhile advertising it as an NE for such a low price, unless it is an NE and perhaps a bit rough......certainly isnt in amazing condition......

I have enquired about it,and will report the result which i am certain will be 'sorry our chap had written the advert incorrectly'

Lets wait and see.........

I must say,i still have very good contacts in Blighty for such guns,its all a matter of what you happen to want,what you wish to use, and much more besides.......

I'd rather have an 8 bore rifle over a .500 NE any day, but this is more a personal,and historical thing,than anything else......

Ben

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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62504 - 15/09/06 06:37 AM

This re-proof business can get confusing. It all depends on when it was done. If a .500 3" was reproved to Nitro as the full nitro version became common, there will two full sets of marks. Nine times out of ten, there will NOT be a re-proof mark present. Not until relatively recently (1954 rules) has use of the reproof mark become fairly reliable.

You actually have to be MORE careful with later re-proofs. In the old days, the new marks were stamped right alongside the old so that what was done (or changed, if anything) was obvious, and the re-proof mark was therefore redundant. I believe it was actually illegal to remove the old marks. In more recent years, the old marks are actually filed off. (Yeah, you file off enough of the flats to get rid of the old marks, you've got to refit the barrels to the action, which is expensive. Cyril Adams, former owner/managing director of Atkin, Grant & Lang, really went on a rant when I asked him about this.) This means you can't tell what was originally there. Worse, use of the re-proof mark is still weird. My understanding is that if the caliber didn't change, they use it. If rifle was rechambered, it's a new caliber and they don't use it.

Was looking at a nice .375 Flanged Magnum the other day, which was an obvious London re-proof ("18 tons" on a 1920's gun). Old marks filed off. No re-proof mark. Is this a .375 2.5" converted to a Flanged Magnum, or a simple re-proof of an original Flanged Magnum for some routine reason? Impossible to tell.
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #62506 - 15/09/06 07:00 AM

Thankyou .400'

So,wow well........actually seems rather complex......

I shall forward any and all details to you forthwith......such as stamps which i shall ask for. Certainly not going back to Blighty on a whim.....

Nice looking gun,but a bit pitted/restored looking........hence low price perhaps?

Yet,one must say........as far as old rifles go in .500 NE what are the min prices anyway? this is $4,500..........

Cheerio

Ben

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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62516 - 15/09/06 02:28 PM

Ben:

$4,500 US would be a very low figure for an original .500 Nitro hammergun to be sure. It would be low for a .500 BPE for that matter. Check it out carefully. An original full nitro .500 would be marked "Cordite 80, 570 MAX" on the barrel flats.

Be careful of the Nitro for Blacks. A few rifles were specifically proved for the NFB load, and are therefore "Nitro Proof", but not really. The .500 NFB load ranged from 52 grains Cordite with a 340 grain lead bullet to 63 grains Cordite with a 440 grain lead bullet. These rifles will have a Nitro Proof mark if made after 1904. If made prior to 1904, Cordite will be mentioned on the flats but there will be no Nitro Proof mark. Either means Nitro proof. However, Nitro for Black cartridges were specifically intended for use in Black Powder proof rifles and did not develop greater pressure than standard black loads. In other words, Nitro Proof for Nitro for Black loads really means Black Powder Proof only. Don't confuse this with true Nitro Proof. You can't go by the Nitro mark, you have to look for the load marked on the flats along with it.
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62520 - 16/09/06 12:33 AM

There are many underlever hammer guns that were originally proofed for cordite. Jack Lott (or one of the other older African hunters) used one such in .577 for Buffalo many years ago. It was written up in Gun Digest, Purple cover, I think (but may be wrong).
: It is a rare gun that was originally made for BP, but is re-proffed fro nitro. My good friend and double collector has one-such W.Richards 10 bore black powder double shotgun, refurbished by H&H, that was re-proofed for modern loads. It was virtually new, almost unfired when he got it, but was neglected and the stock needed re-finishing. He also wanted the original-type leather case for it.
: Today, one can find almost anything one wants. The trouble is affording them once found.

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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62526 - 16/09/06 07:09 AM

Kind sirs.......

Yes i will admit that $4,500 is low for a nitro,yet not for a BP....

I know of several sites with BP guns for such prices, and less...... an Isaac Hollis .577 for £1,600/$3,200.....

Same but by Scott for $4,000 in better(brilliant) condition.....

Various .500x3" BPE's from £1,300-£2,000/$2,600-$4,000.....

Are you being given raised prices i wonder due to transport and rarity in the US and Canada?

I have often planned......to visit India,part of the Empire at one time,and Calcutta, where i have noticed that it may be very likely to find much great treaures......bests,made for Maharajas.....down to lovely strong guns made for work. The place is full of them.

But this is a dream,and that of a busy man.

I thankyou both for your kind information, i will be ringing this smith tomorrow to see what they have to say upon the matter.....i have many doubts that it is a nitro,but being of sound mind and body i shall of course be making proceedures to purchase it if it is the genuine article. I shall simply make a visit to my brother in London and go on from there.....

Either way,i shall still be buying an 8 gauge gun.

Daryl,you are right,but at such prices ones dreams become much more of a reality.....its only when one asks for a 4 bore rifle or .600 NE that ones dreams become nothing more than that which they are!

IF any of you are in the market for something,feel free to inform me of what and i shall gladly try to help.....just as you have helped me here.

And no,i do not want fees and such, being thanked is fine.

Perhaps in return someone may know of a great priced 8 gauge shotty? i know these can be cheap,and are of much less interest to many of you.

Thankyou

Ben

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400NitroExpress
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62529 - 16/09/06 08:19 AM

No, we're not given raised prices here. They're often cheaper here than they are in England. Lots of pitted, shot out and used up stuff available at those prices, but not stuff worth having. As far as the double rifles go, the British auctions are loaded with wall hangers that won't sell. Lots of those end up on the net.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500Nitro
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #62530 - 16/09/06 08:53 AM


400

Well said.

I agree - I get every auction catalogue from the UK and look at it all - everything may look "cheap" but apart from wall hangars alot would have to have money spent to make them worthwhile.

500 Nitro

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mickey
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62531 - 16/09/06 11:07 AM

empire

I t is helpful to all of us who read these posts to know the location of the posters. As you will note we are from all around the World and prices and supplies differ from place to place.

Could you go into your profile and list your Country for us?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62533 - 16/09/06 11:13 AM

I will most certainly let you know if I hear of an 8, in rifle or smoothbore.
: I must get a letter off to my double-gun collec0tor friend. Besides the .500 Maharaja double rifle he has, he still has 12, 10 and 8 bore rifles and shotguns. You never know, maybe one is for sale. All of his gun aquisitions were sent to H&H for re-furbishing back in the 70's when such work was reasonable. I recall a price of $650.00 or maybe $750.00 CDN for one 12 bore re-done, along with another $600.00 just for the leather bound case. That was in 1977, I think. It was a fair piece of change then but much more now, I'd think. The gun price included re-browning of the damascus barrels, simply beautiful and looking brand new.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62537 - 16/09/06 11:37 AM

Hello all

Country listed now.

Tuscany,and Italy are a great relief for us British,as the gun laws at home are confining to say the least!

Sorry,but......i am aware that many fine British guns have now gone to the US and Australia, and Canada also(aided also by your superior laws i am sure) and yet though many may well be wall hangers and such,it is here that the usable and good conditioned ones which you have yourselves came from.

Naturally,it is best to go to the source of where a thing is made to find what you want,and at the best price......for example,if you have a best British gun,then obviously thats where it came from.

BUT,i do notice that some superb guns come from Germany,Belgium, Austria and so on....

If we're talking of old rifles and shotguns,i think its fair to say that Britain had the most and the best of the merchandise, due to the excessive use by the British during the Victorian era,of firearms for hunting in the colonies and such.

But due to our horrendous laws, i concede that perhaps the most of the usable guns would go to your countries, while the hangers are left more to us......no license for an antique arm as long as it is not used,and no ammunition is kept.

But i assure you,bargains can be had.....a friend i know is a friend of the Earl of Kent, and he himself has numerous BP double rifles, though he may not sell them now,later who knows.....

Though many may not be so great,others i promise would be superb,and very well priced.......some of these guns were used for one 'hunt' which was more of a pose than anything else,as once big game hunting was an aristocrats neccesity. It seems that then,just as now,it has always been costly and a sport of the wealthy.

But as i stated, India may yet be un untried land of treasures.....if you search online you will even hear of bore-rifles being used in crimes and such.......

Anyway, i shall report back after a chat with the seller of this 'hammer .500 NE' tomorrow......

Cheerio

Ben

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500Nitro
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62540 - 16/09/06 11:51 AM


Most of the DR's in Australia came from India in the 70's and 80's IN BULK.

Some went straight to the US, some here, some to the UK and some who knows where.

Yes, there are bargains to be had everywhere but from what I have found and bought - and I buy guns in the UK, US, NZ, Australia, what often looks like a "Bargain" often turns out not to be.

And as for UK being cheaper than elsewhere on goods guns, it depends.

IF you have found a bargain, good luck - go and buy it and well done.

500 Nitro

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gatsby
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62542 - 16/09/06 01:16 PM

I agree when it comes to bargin double guns they are few and far between. As for using an 8 bore shotgun with round balls, will it regulate? Certainly not as well as a paradox! Did smooth bore round ball guns have thicker barrel walls than a shotgun?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: gatsby]
      #62562 - 17/09/06 03:20 AM

Hi again...

Ahhh,thanks for that info nitro, i had wondered......

Bargains can indeed be had,but you are right to be suspicious,if its a dealer selling the guns.(dealers never let something go for NOTHING, though sometimes one can get a fair price from them also)

The thing i noticed is that many of those that bought the guns first,were indeed English/UK based, and very typically nobles of one sort or another,or the well to do in general.

Well,having come from the countryside(Cornwall) i can say that all these old families managed to keep the guns pretty well, and from time to time they are sold off. Many were licensed and kept,others fall under the handy 'antique and curio' category.

Thanks for the wish of luck! Called,chap is at the Midland Game Fair.(on today) Am calling again monday. I bet its BP,and if its not i shall be taking steps to purchase it. If merely a BP then i feel its hardly worth that price...

Then even if it needs some work,surely it is worth it? a Brit .500 NE isnt an every day weapon one may find anyway......and always when one does they seem to be horrendously expensive....

The Great Gatsby....yes i reflect your concerns, but Daryl has had no problems so far,and has proven tests under his wing.

What concerned me too was; barrel thickness,gun weight, action strength,steel strength,stock strength.......much more pressure and such firing balls etc from the gun,no???

Daryl, your expertise is needed here.......

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62565 - 17/09/06 04:27 AM

: I do not bleieve for a second that balls develop more pressure than a shot load, with it's attendent length of shot column, extra wads, etc increasing pressure through friction in the bore. I may be wrong, but that is what I believe. We've developed ball laods for double 12's, no problem, even those with damascus barrels. They must be in excellent shape though without ANY deep pits or dings.
: Since we are talking about more modern guns than muzzleloaders, we are referring to ctg. guns that used, for expample in 12 bore, shot charges to at least 1-1/4 ounces. That is a .715" ball, weighting 545gr. compared to the shot charge of 546.6gr. Looks pretty close to me. I'd use that ball in a set of damascus barrels IF they were in excellent condiditon as checked out by myself. 'Fluid Steel' barrels in reasonably good condition would also pass.
: The barrel thickness at the muzzles for shooting round balls and black powder is not a major concern, as long as they are 'sound' and not wafer thin. W.W. Greener made up a double gun, with very thin muzzles. He fired many pigeon loads, heavy by the standard of the day, without damage, then cut a full circle off each with his pocket knife, just to show the low pressure at the muzzles. This was with BP, as smokeless developes higher muzzle pressure than with the black powder. Too, even with smokeless powders used in shotshells today, muzzle pressure is still quite load, not at all like a small-bore rifle.
: I've come across some more information on English trials with bore guns (small bores too) and will pass that along as I gather it into something readable.
: Regulation is something one must experiment with. As with a double rifle, you simply cannot pick a load from a book and expect it to regualte.
: The ultimate would be to have, as happened with my old 12 bore shotgun, a load that will put the barrels side by side out to 100 yards and with suitable accuracy to that range. In their day, with supplied ammo, there were lots of doubles that didn't regulate well, however the 'best' names usually did.
: The second best situation is to have a double that shoots exceptionaly well with one barrel, to the sights, saving that one for ball and the other for either shot or at least knowing where the other shoots and using it only for a 'back-up' or stopping shot if necessary.
: Samual Baker was most impresed with the .577, loaded with 6 drams of powder and a 650 gr. bullet. With it, he said it never failed to paralize a lion or tiger (India). Another African hunter claimed his .577 was a tremendous gun for Elephant, he-too using a black powder express double rifle.
: The 'Field" tests in England, using small bores, the large bore rifles and smooth bored ball guns was quite interesting. I suggest anyone interested in this aspect of shooting, big guns and small, find a copy of W.W.Greener's 9th edition as noted above in a previous post. A better record of these gun's history is not likely to be found. As well, there is a wealth of knowledge to be found within, regarding shooting shot well. Without this book, it is unlikely I'd have pursued finding round ball loads for my own 12 bores.
: The shooting of Holland's 8 bore and 4 bore was especially well done, as was the 12bore, all managing less than 1" deviation from centre at 50 yards. All were shot with round balls, including a 1,880gr. conical from one 4 bore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (17/09/06 05:06 AM)

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62566 - 17/09/06 04:49 AM

Thankyou Daryl.

But is it not true that a slug etc will give a much harder kick when fired than say 00 buckshot or other shot loads? why is this anyway?

This seems to be the general opinion,though i have never been permitted to use slugs before now,and have no particular interest in doing so.

So,basically, what physical differences would i find between the 8 gauge paradox rifle,and the 8 gauge shotgun? barrel length,obviously....weight though? perhaps.......but what of strength? would the lock be heavier-duty on the rifle? both are always jones underlever be they doubles or singles. so it appears. would strengths be equal afterall? or,is the paradox put together in an altogether different manner?

Thanks and cheerio.......

Ben

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gatsby
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62571 - 17/09/06 09:17 AM

Paradox barrels are heavier inch for inch than shotgun barrels and regulate to 100 plus yards. My question concerning round ball guns was are those barrels heavier than standard barrels in any given gauge? In the day when someone ordered a smoothbore roundball gun what did they get, a shotgun with short tubes and sites that had been regulated?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: gatsby]
      #62582 - 17/09/06 01:28 PM

Ben - From what I can find out from W.W. Greener's book, is that there were many smoothbore ball guns made, more than we previously supposed. I assume they had sights of some sort, probably a block for the point blank sight and a front bead, set in longitudinally in the rib with pin and spring, not sideways with a dovetail as I did mine.
: As well as smoothbore ball guns, there were choke bored rifles with very shallow rifling full length and with chokes, also rifled. They shot well with ball and with shot, apparently, though not as well as a properly choked shotgun. Another was the oval bore, with the oval being a slow twist. This was another ball gun that also shot bird shot quite well. Still another was the rifled shotgun, with only the choke rifled, deeply and fast enough to turn the speeding ball. It-too shot bird shot fairly well. Some of these guns must still be about, though maybe not many in Europe. I presume that many of the shotguns we see today on the market, might well have been ball and shot guns. I would not shoot a gun with extremely thin muzzles, due to easily damaging them. I would not worry about shooting appropriate or shot duplication loads with round ball from any sound shot-gun.
: I'd think the barrels and probably actions might have been heavier on the ball and shot guns, but then, most of the muzzleloading 4 bores used, like Selous Dutch 4 bore Elephant gun, were merely originally fowlers, cut shorter in the tubes or tube along with some sort of sights, primitive and set low to the rib. Leutenant J. Forsyth (later a Captain) spoke of having one tube of a partridge popper loaded with ball just in case your spotted spaniel flushed a tiger instead of a grouse. He also spoke of loading one barrel for shot and the other for ball in a Lefaucheux breech loader which was a poorly fixed (locked up) double shotgun of 1858(or earlier) vintage.
: Recoil - I've always felt the mag buckshot or 4 dram duck loads kicked more than any slug load I've fired. The BP loads kick more than equivalent smokeless loads, even though the pressures are lower for black. Breech pressure has little if anything to do with felt recoil.
; Note that it is stated that Swiss black powder develops approximately 20% more pressure for a given load than does GOEX black powder, same granulaton, I assume. Swiss, according to Ross Seyfried, duplicates the velocities of the English powders used in many double guns, grain for grain. It's only downfall, is it seems to foul somewhat more than the older English powders, but is supposed to foul considerably less than GOEX. Proper lubrication usually takes care of whatever excessive fouling there may be.
: The only original ball and shot gun I've had my hooks on, was a muzzleloading, side hammer 6 bore double, with around 36" or 38" tubes. It had a bead front sight with a platinum lined block for the rear sight. It was re-bored by H&H to 5 bore and proofed for it's normal charge, which I don't remember, probably 12 drams for it's .92" or .93" bores. It weighed 14 pounds and was quite heavily built, as you would imagine for a 6 bore, but probably not overly heavy for shooting ball. It's owner used to delight in shooting trap with it on occasion. It's 3 ounce clouds of #8 shot really dusted clay birds well. To my knowledge, the owner has never fired ball in it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62603 - 18/09/06 01:05 AM

Thankyou Daryl

So,it seems that these 'rifles' that use shot also must be simply for sale as mere shotguns,as you say,well this is interesting......need simply to look out for a rear sight as the tell tale sign?

Seeing as that gun you mentioned has 36-38" barrels, the only difference of it to any normal shotgun/fowler,was the rear sight!!!?? correct?

Selous's gun was a muzzle loader then? interesting.....horrid for a second shot surely? or if a double,horrid for the 3rd and 4th?

Actually,i must say when one goes from 10 gauge and up the guns seem to be huge,and immensely strong,actions included. and i dont see much of any difference in weight or bulk between the shotguns and the designated rifles.

Oddly,a chap i have come to know a little has a 2 bore for sale.......a chance to re-enact Baker? sounds a little painful to me......besides,thing is just huge......a shoulder fired punt i think.

Some very interesting stuff there Daryl.......

I reckon the 12 gauges are different from their rifle equivelents, but the bigger gagues seem to be the same,weight and all.

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62609 - 18/09/06 06:09 AM

Selous' gun that I mentioned, was a single. He had a pair, so that one was always loaded. His 'caffer' loading the empty one from a leather bag at his waist. Apparently in a tight scrape with a mad elephant, he put in two handfulls of powder instead of just one. When Selous fired that one, the stock broke at the wrist, hammer ripping him across the forehead, and dropping a flap of scalp skin over his eyes. That made a great story, no?
: I found reference to the gun trials of 1883, the only such trials where makers competed against each other. Double rifles along with a smoothbored ball gun by Holland's weere used. The shooting of the smoothbore was rather poor, but mentioned by W.W. Greener that quote - - "A smoothbore shot-gun, choked or cylinder, should make a better diagram in good hands" This means to me, that shotguns were commonly used with ball as well as shot, as I noted in a previous post.
: Incidently, in the trials, a 4 bore double, made the smallest deviation on the 50 yard target of any, the mean shot being only .782" average from centre. This is pretty good shooting and would probably put all 10 shots, in a 2" square or smaller group. It was not common for 4 bore doubles to be rifed as of 1883, but this one might have been rifled as no mention was made that it was a smoothbore.
: A previous test using an 8 bore, put 6 consecutive shots inside a rectangle 2-1/2" wide by 5-1/8" high. Discounting the high left barrel shot, 5 are in a square 2-1/2" X 3-5/8" high. This is better shooting most hunters can do with their scoped moose rifles, even at a mere 50 yards.
: The shooting done in these trials was usually standing, at the high bench, gun gripped as if shooting offhand, with the shooter leaning against and across the table's padding. This 'sort' of hold (gripped as if shotoing offhand) is necesary with heavy recoiling guns to eliminate non-consistant recoil from spoiling the groups fired. Incidently, the bore rifles, from 12 through 4 bore outshot all of the Express rifles at 50 yards at the '83 trials.
: Now, if you can find an 11-1/2 pound 8 bore with 20" barrels, be assured it was most likely for ball. Weights are listed as 24" bls. at 15 pounds to use 10 or 12 drams and a spherical ball. He (Greener) states that (quote) "Possibly the best weapon for large game is this 8-bore with short barrels; but using the light spherical bullet only, and eight or more drams of powder, the double rifle then need not weigh more than 11-1/2 pounds as the recoil will be so much less (than shooting a conical) and the velocity and penetration at the short ranges at which large game is almost invariably shot will be more than sufficient to penetrate and kill even the largest elephant, whether head or side shot be taken. The accuracy of the large-bore rifles and ball guns is very good up to 60 yards with the smooth, and 120 yards with the rifle." (end quote)
: Incidently, a muzzleloading rifle can be loaded quite quickly. My 14 bore, when loaded using paper ctgs. could be loaded ans discharged 8 seconds after the previous shot. Selous gun-bearer probably used no wads, just a handgful of powder and rolled a ball onto it. this, of course, does nothing to keep the ball at the powder for if the muzzle is depressed, the ball will roll forward. I suspect that if needed for a coup-de-gras, there'd be no patch used. Of course, it is possible a patch was used in the normal fashion.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62611 - 18/09/06 07:29 AM

Hi Daryl

Thankyou for that information.

Well unfortunately i have not come across any such 8's. Most seem to have barrels ranging from 30" to 36"

So,tell me.......

My eye has caught upon a Freer 8g double,for a measly sum.(£600) now the barrels are some 33.5" long......and yet that one you have handled yourself,though a muzzle gun,was longer,right? Even so,given that this be a shotgun, and a jones underlever as almost all 8's and 4's are,(and larger) would i make myself an excellent ball rifle merely by having the barrels cut down, and a rear sight added? Do you know of this maker? i barely remember the name......god knows from where.

The jones underlever is amazingly strong and features on all these guns,rifles and shotguns, and i take as being the strongest action at the time. The Greener cross-bolt being second strongest,no?

Cheerio and thankyou.

Ben

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500Nitro
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62612 - 18/09/06 08:07 AM


empirevr

Regarding your comment of the
Greener cross-bolt being second strongest,no?

I disagree - I think the Greener cross bolt is not a good system
as once it wears (and you see alot of them worn), they come loose and then shoot even looser as time goes by.

I have seen alot of loose Greener Shotguns.

I prefer the Webley PHV 1 or Screw Grip system which continually seem to lock up the action even as it wears - which is due in no part to how it is designed.

Just my HO. Someone like 400 could probably give a better technical explanation.

500 Nitro

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62615 - 18/09/06 08:23 AM

Hi nitro

Then what about the jones underlever? so commonly used on the large older guns,and all large wild fowlers?

Funny,in principal doesnt look that strong,and yet it seems to be.

Cheerio

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62620 - 18/09/06 10:33 AM

Yes - if you cut the barrels back to 24", put on a nice low bead, plus a point blank sight, the appropriate distance up from the standing breech, you'd have an excellent ball gun.
: All that would be necessary, would be to work up a load that put the barrels together.
: Check to see if it is chambered for paper or brass cases.
: Measure the bore size to obtain the proper ball size and you're away. Oh yes - do get the Greener book, 9th edition.
: Best of luck to you, keep me posted.
: I am not familiar with Freer. I assume it is in very good condition.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62646 - 19/09/06 01:12 AM

Hi Daryl

So far i cannot reach the chap with the Freer....i do hope this is an English gun.....can anyone remember?

The .500 nitro hammer,has sold everyone,for £2,000 and yes it was a proper nitro,in good condition........chap selling it is someone i have come to know quite well over the last years,yet he had changed his site around and so i wasnt sure if it was him or not.

Anyway,lovely prices......

Another chap has just made me a very good offer...a Charles Osbourne 2 bore single,with repaired stock and excellent bores,with some ammuntion for £3,000/$6,000........

Any opinions? how about that firing balls Daryl? would i ever have the dare to actually fire it,i wonder........

So,24lbs weight,44" barrel......jones underlever.

Bit of an oddity eh? i like the price and fear the gun.......is/was a fowler, and yet i cannot imagine who ordered a 2 bore for shoulder firing.....no sign of any sights except a front bead. Could it none-the-less have been a gun intended for ball use also? certainly a stopped if so.

Personally, i would love to find a well priced 12 bore paradox rifle.....shot,ball,and conical......and i can use the shot here to hunt with also.(we are limited to no larger than 12g shot here,for hunting)

And yet,i can shoot any calibre at the range. So 10's and 8's would be good too,as would the 14/16's.........

Any of you ever fired a 2 bore? even a 4 bore? being a smooth bore gun, is it easier to fire? i picture a hospitalising kick from her..........

Ben

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62650 - 19/09/06 01:48 AM

A 2 bore?? - I make the 4 bore and 2 bore as being TOO much fun, something I don't really need.
; Many guns for ball in the Indian theatre, according to Forsyth, had no rear sight, only the front bead. Sighting was taking down the rib, with the larger breechs giving the necessary elevation. He even stated that some smoothbores had breeches too high, giving too much elevation. This, of course, could be compensated by with a higher bead. A 44" barrel? I thought my flinter longrifle was long at 42". the gun must be gigantic in the hands.
Daryl

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62660 - 19/09/06 05:43 AM

HI Daryl

Hahaha...a little OTT,what?

I think such recoil could spoil all 'fun' personally.......

Selous ended up delerious from firing his 2 bore,didnt he?

A very nice old firearm......but perhaps not quite what i had in mind.

At £3,000 wouldnt you agree that it is a great bargain though?

Any idea of anyone selling a 12 bore paradox or smooth rifle for a fair price?

Cheerio

Ben

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SAFARIKID
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62665 - 19/09/06 07:57 AM

Hey Guys,I am also a owner of both of these(and more)..My newest 4 bore is a Real shoulder cannon at 26 pounds with 22" RIFLED Barrels and a true 1" hole in each barrel!This "aint your daddy's 4 bore" holds true with this custom double.Aptly named "T-Rex" by me,it shoots Jacketed 2000gr Soft Points and Solids from its rifled barrels up to 1500fps with Smokeless loads of Blue Dot Powder.This is Far More Powerful than the old ones shooting round lead balls or conicals at much lower velocitys and slower twist.The TKO factor (Taylor Knockout Formula) is 400 Plus where a .600NE is a mere 160 and a .700NE is 200!! I am getting under 2" groups at 50yds(each barrel will touch holes!).I also have a 8 Bore Tolley and a 7 bore Greener,but these shoot 1000-1250 conicals at 1200fps or so and are no match for there Big Brother!As far as penetration goes,I shot a 5/8 steel hanging plate at 20yds witha 2000 soft and it not only went through it,it broke the support steel cable suspending it!Awesome Power,I can wait th get a Cape Buff with it next month in the shoulder with the 2000 softs...I do have several videos of me shooting it now on YOUTUBE.COM under T-Rex! T-Rex II T-Rex III Also,I do have some Big Doubles For Sale .577,.600,8 bore and 7 bore.

--------------------
Lots of BIG Bores!

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gatsby
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62672 - 19/09/06 10:38 AM

Empirevr
Holts just auctioned a paradox, I think it went for about 15,000.00 US. You had mentioned an 8 bore paradox for around 12,000.00, I think that gun(can't be two for that asking price) has had the rifling removed from the chocks but might be a good candidate for a smooth bore ball gun. I believe the gentlemen who has the 8 had a 12 paradox that was bargin priced but the barrels and action had different serial #s but if it is a shooter was fairly priced.

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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empirevr
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Reged: 03/09/06
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Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: gatsby]
      #62693 - 20/09/06 12:37 AM

Hi

safarikid......the 7 bore and 8 bore,prices? 7 bore.....odd,does it have any ammo?

Gatsby, im interested.....you found the 8 i was talking of? well what of this 12 bore then? please give me more info......pm me.....would love to know price and such.....

Another chap i know,who sold the 500 nitro,has a contact in India of all places,and here we see why he had/has 11 doubles for sale.......

Yes,they were cheap as they needed some bits doing to them,but nothing horrendous.

Look forward to hearing from you regarding the 12 bore.

Ben

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62798 - 21/09/06 09:38 AM

Found a beautiful four-bore online,smoothbore gun with 30" barrels......

At £17,000 maybe one of you luckier guys should go for it? seems worth it........J.W. Tolley, and a double too.

Cheers

Ben

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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62823 - 21/09/06 02:11 PM

17000E!!! is crazy for a smooth gun. Where's it listed?

Bob?

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"

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gatsby
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #62826 - 21/09/06 02:24 PM

Bob,
Crazy in which direction?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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500Nitro
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: Omnivorous_Bob]
      #62827 - 21/09/06 02:45 PM


Bob

http://www.litts.co.uk/robins-rack.php

As a general rule, If it's too expensive, then they are not looking at you as a target market !!!

In any case, litts is known to be expensive so it's not surprising.

500 Nitro

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62848 - 22/09/06 02:30 AM

Really??

This is interesting.......

So in US $ thats about 34,000..........

Drakes has them from time to time,seem to be about 2x this price........

If you know of cheaper ones would love to see them.....

Singles and doubles, always rifles, smooth,paradox,and full.....

Thanks

Ben

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62908 - 22/09/06 09:40 PM

Bob

Where are you?

If your saying thats very pricey for a smooth DR in 4 bore then please can you tell me how much one should pay for such a gun?

Any sites,or contacts also greatly appreciated sir!

Ben

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Double_Trouble
.375 member


Reged: 27/04/06
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Loc: Canada
Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62914 - 23/09/06 12:09 AM

L17,000 is closer to $40,000.00 USD

if the Pound is at approx 2.3 .... the amount is $39,100.00

--------------------
Double Trouble,
Speak not of what you do not know.
Listen up when it's time to.

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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #62929 - 23/09/06 06:12 AM

Hi

No no.....

xe.com Universal Currency Converter ® Results
Live mid-market rates as of 2006.09.22 19:41:28 UTC.
17,000.00 GBP
United Kingdom Pounds = 32,309.77 USD
United States Dollars
1 GBP = 1.90057 USD 1 USD = 0.526157 GBP
Save money. Click here!!

Has always stayed at nearly 2 to 1. Dollar is strong currently, that is good news to me.....and my US clients especially.

Have any of you seen any 4 bore double rifle cheaper? blighters are a trifle rare........

Centuryarms seem to make a single barrel 4 bore rewa, and its $35,000.....

I dont think that price seems very high at all for the Tolley 4 bore.....I could have sworn they normally went for double that amount.....but all out of my league anyway!

Ben

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500Nitro
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62930 - 23/09/06 06:21 AM


I know of one 4 Bore double down this way and a couple of 8 Bore doubles and all are up above the $ figure you are talking about.

And I don't think the owners would have any problem selling them if they put them on the market as they are rare and extremely good pieces.

500 Nitro

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62933 - 23/09/06 06:38 AM

'Nitro

That Tolley also seems a beauty.......

Someone said its expensive,but this i dont believe.

I have yet to see any 4-bore double rifle of any kind, for less money than this.

There isnt enough of them to go round as it is,so prices will never be low.

8's are much much easier to find,and half the price.

A Tolley 8 rifle went on gunsamerica for $10,500.......which of you got it???

Cheers

Ben

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500Nitro
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62935 - 23/09/06 06:52 AM


empirevr

I am sure if you owned a 4 bore and then decided to sell it you wouldn't ask lower than it's worth / value.

I didn't get the 8 bore - not my field anyway.

There are some very good buys on GA occasionally - the problem I se eis that people can't identify them easily OR don't move quick enough when they do see one.

500 Nitro

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62937 - 23/09/06 07:11 AM

Ahh well nitro old chap.......

That depends upon the seller,the condition of the gun,and what the seller paid also.

God knows,i saw it on there very late on......i hadnt been looking for an 8 really anyway,as i know they are typically $20,000+

For $10,000 i could get a Krieghoff .500 ne........not English but well made good and usable,with same power about.

$10,000 will buy a nitro alright,but no 8 or 4.

Ben

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gatsby
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Posts: 862
Loc: inland valley CA USA
Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62942 - 23/09/06 11:14 AM

Does anybody know the specs on this 4?

--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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500Nitro
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62944 - 23/09/06 11:32 AM


empirevr

"and what the seller paid also" has stuff all to do with what you sell it for.
gatsby

who was your question re the 4 bore directed at ?

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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62945 - 23/09/06 11:38 AM

As you wish,sir.......

Though if i bought for 5,value 10,wanted cash fast for whatever reason,sell 7.5.......

Gatsby,its a smooth bore Tolley with ivory rear sight, 30" barrels, jones underlever gun.....in decent condition too.

Cheerio.

Ben

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #370143 - 11/10/22 12:47 AM

Quote:

So i have gathered what information i can online.......but there is very little.

So im asking you guys,with your vastly superior wisdom.....

What was the more popular of the bpe rifles in africa and india? the 8 bores get more mention now.....more seem to be for sale.....

The 4 bores i heard one chap say only 100 were made....

If so,how many 8 bores were made?

And just for my curiosity......was the .577 bpe the bp equivilent of todays .375 h&h???

Thankyou



No vast wisdom here ... But I would think 4-bores were very uncommon. Non existent?

The .450 and .500 BPEs were medium game calibres. A .577 BPE again a larger medium game rifle but maybe extending into bovines?

8-bores, 10-bores were the thing and 12-bores marginal. Probably used a lot however.

If you read the old books, shoot. If it doesn't die, keep shooting. If it runs away, find another one ... If it kills you instead, no book ....

Funny I only saw the first post, must have been threaded view. Must read the other four pages now! . I see it is from 2006. I must have picked the thread up from who's online listings.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

Edited by NitroX (11/10/22 12:58 AM)

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: Double_Trouble]
      #370148 - 11/10/22 03:10 AM

Quote:

L17,000 is closer to $40,000.00 USD

if the Pound is at approx 2.3 .... the amount is $39,100.00



Currently, as in right this minute, 17,000 pounds is $18,767.64 US, $25,781.01 CDN and $29,806.18 Aussie $.

App Currency Plus is handy sometimes.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: NitroX]
      #370171 - 11/10/22 07:30 PM

Quote:

So i have gathered what information i can online.......but there is very little.

So im asking you guys,with your vastly superior wisdom.....

What was the more popular of the bpe rifles in africa and india? the 8 bores get more mention now.....more seem to be for sale.....

The 4 bores i heard one chap say only 100 were made....

If so,how many 8 bores were made?

And just for my curiosity......was the .577 bpe the bp equivilent of todays .375 h&h???





I haven't read my older historical hunting books, where the BP bore rifles were the norm. And the little BPE cartridges.

Forgetting any modern use what use historically donyou remember reading they put them to?

A .500 and .577 are regarded as very big bores now.140 years ago, no they weren't. The bullets were far lighter, slow, and lacked penetration. The lead projectiles were often too fragile. Imo.

If they were such great bg killers, why aren't modern 12-bore shotguns today great dg slayers?

No a .577 BPE was not the equivalent to a .375 H&H Mag. A reason such innovations revolutionised safari rifle choices and rung the final death knell for a lot of older cartridges. So much more effective.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: NitroX]
      #370172 - 11/10/22 07:37 PM

I wish I had the reference still.

I remember reading some intrepid colonial hunter hunting seladang/gaur in SE Asia. Malaya perhaps?

It was a harrowing tale. He shot the bull more than once. Several times I think. In the jungle it proceeded to toss him up and about. Time and again. His trackers observing from high in trees.

One explanation was his using an inadequate rifle. Was smaller than a 10-bore. A 12 or 14 ?

I've forgotten too much. There is no doubt I have written about it at least twice before. Maybe even found the story or a similar story.

That story resonated with me about using so ething inadequate especially in thick jungle or bush.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: NitroX]
      #370182 - 11/10/22 09:49 PM



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: NitroX]
      #370183 - 11/10/22 09:54 PM

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=254014&an=&page=0&vc=1

"Classic African Cartridges: The Giant Bores - Four and Six" by Ganyana, African Hunter Magazine.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: NitroX]
      #370195 - 12/10/22 03:25 AM

Good "portrait" of a young Francois Selous, with his shortened 4-bore Dutch Fowler, a cap-lock.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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