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empirevr
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8 bore vs 4 bore
      #62238 - 08/09/06 02:40 AM

So i have gathered what information i can online.......but there is very little.

So im asking you guys,with your vastly superior wisdom.....

What was the more popular of the bpe rifles in africa and india? the 8 bores get more mention now.....more seem to be for sale.....

The 4 bores i heard one chap say only 100 were made....

If so,how many 8 bores were made?

And just for my curiosity......was the .577 bpe the bp equivilent of todays .375 h&h???

Thankyou


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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62240 - 08/09/06 03:00 AM

The 8's were much more popular in Africa and India too, I believe.
: As far as the 4 bores go, wasn't Selous' gun a chopped off Dutch single barrel fowler?
: There were many of those made for the market hunters.
: The .577 BPE would have more effect on large beasts than the .375H&H, .375 Weatherby or .375 Ultra mags. It is difficult for Volkswagen Beetles to do the work of a Locomotive. Even the 12 bore round ball ctg. loads exceed the smack of a .375.imho, of course.

--------------------
Daryl


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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62242 - 08/09/06 04:47 AM

Thanks Daryl

So, was the .577 bpe ever used as an elephant/rhino/buffalo gun? where may i obtain stories? Is it a 4,000 ft lb round? or more?

Back to the 8's and 4's.....

I remember once reading an argument saying the 8's had superior penetration to the 4's,due to the sheer size of the 4's rounds vs i suppose its increase in energy.

The 4's seem amazingly rare, and the 8's very much less so.....

What was the main round of the day anyway? as an all rounder,if you like? (i.e. capable of use against an ele bull with correct shot,and good for everything else large/medium also)

Ben


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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62244 - 08/09/06 08:35 AM

I'm sure it was and recall Baker or Bell may have used one one on such beasts as well.
: John Taylor's good book, African Rifles and Ctgs., available at most Libraries (I think) may have thoughts on it. I'm sure it does, as he mentions the .450 BPE quite favourably for up to and including elephant with hardened lead bullets.
: One thing one must remember, is foot pounds of energy is not a good measure of killing power. It is impossible for an animal weighing 200 pounds to be hit with a impact of thousands of pounds, yet stay on it's feet. The formula makes no sense.
: The big bores kill by disrupting organs and blood vessels by hitting with a porojectile that will do adequate damamge and penetrate deeply enough to do that damage.
; The .45 calibre African calibres have been lumped all together as giving similar results by those who use them daily with many heads of game killed by them or observed first hand. This puts the 8,000 FPE of the .460 Weatherby in the same bracket as the 5,000 FPE of the .458Mags, factory and wildcat, while a step up to the .50 calibres, giving the same or similar FPE showed greater stopping and killing power over the .50's and another step up when ging to the .577's. This in itself should show FPE isn't a good criteria for stopping or killing power. Ther are many others, btw.
; Many of the African species, not weakened by hard winters, seem more 'bullet proof' or tougher than like weight North American game. Even at that, many North American game animals are also seemingly FPE resistant. Buffalo and Elk fit that, as the the great bears.
; Where the buffalo hunters did just fine with 2,000FPE and 2,400FPE from the really long cases, they killed well to well over 600 yards, yet today, we have guys saying buffalo are showing no impacts nor dying quickly when hit by 4,000fpe from .375's and .416's. Many accounts and letters sent to Sharps tell of bufflo dropping to the shot, yet that seemingly hasn't happened in the wilds of B.C. during the special season. 8 rounds point blank with an '06 through the lights accompanied with 27 minutes of video show he was unimpressed with that rifle's 2,800fpe each , combined energy of 22,400 foot pounds of energy. that poor 1,500 pound buffalo should have been hamburger or at lease slammed to the ground, instead of just walking around looking over the landscape, and grabbing up a mouthful of grass. What a video.
; Please don't take this the wrong way. We've been deluged with FOE numbers for many years. It's just that on most big game, those numbers have proven to mean very little if anything.

--------------------
Daryl


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500Nitro
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62245 - 08/09/06 08:49 AM


A mate of mine has a double 4 and a double 8.

Either way, hit a buff with one and they know it.

A person I know hit a charging buff with an 8 bore - it was charging someone else so was side on to him - and it
absolutely poleaxed it.

8 bores are more common than 4 bores by a long way
- and even more so in doubles.

H&H made a few I believe.

500 Nitro


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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62246 - 08/09/06 09:23 AM

Thankyou Daryl and 'nitro

I realise that its not about ft lbs,but also realise this is a factor to some extent too....but,i have no idea how powerful the .577 bpe was/is...no info may be found online,not for ft lbs or fps....

I also cannot find any info on it being used for such a purpose,yet i agree it must have been.....i once sorely missed a 500x3" rhodda, now this in itself says nothing,but the thing is.....it was high relief engraved with buffalo.....and yes,elephant.

Now perhaps someone just wanted this on it,but if my memory serves me well the guns are usually engraved appropriately enough as per their calibre and capabilities.

Excuse my leaving the subject there.......

8 bores seem ever so much more affordable than 4 bores also, and ammunition is much more readily available as are dies and moulds and such.

I guess the post really should be; who,with what,when,where?! it seems there is no precise info anywhere, yet those of you with the right books,and or knowledge,which im sure is vastly superior to my own, can answer many of these riddles.

Were the 8's and 4's just back up stopper guns? what were the then most popular guns for general use,and even ele hunting? i.e. now we dont use .600's and .700's in general,we seem to use 450's 470's and 500's.......

Phew all very interesting,and very confusing also.

Thanks for the shared wisdom.

Ben


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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62250 - 08/09/06 12:03 PM

Did not some intrepid African hunter not kill a charging buff with English coins as the projectile from his 8 bore?

--------------------
Daryl


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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62271 - 09/09/06 06:09 AM

wow

Who Daryl? amazing!

What are your opinions on the above post? and the odd Rhodda 500x3" 'elephant rifle'???

Thanks!

Ben


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bulldog563
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62273 - 09/09/06 08:10 AM

Yes, I believe it was Sir Samuel Baker and it was a Water Buffalo. Not sure if it was charging though.

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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62276 - 09/09/06 08:33 AM

A rodda .500 3" is the Nitro Express, isn't it. That, of course, is in a slightly different league than the .458's and of course, badly outclasses the .45 and .50 cal BPE's.
; As far as the .577 BPE, it is reported to run 650gr. bullets at around 1,650fps. Given hardened bullets having enough penetration, it would work splendidly on all of the bigger game animals.
: Even Baker noted that a hardened ball from a 14 bore round ball double rifle, with only 5 drams (or maybe drachms) of BP would exit an Indian elephant's head. "through and through" were his words. I found my 14 bore rifle only produced 1,770fps with 330gr.2F, a mere 70fps over a 265gr. charge, so the extra powder is minimal. I think perhaps Baker meant drams afterall.
: With a mere 6 drams of 2F, it drove a ball through 30 yards of willow branches, through a rib and smashed the off shoulder of a bull moose at a range of 100 yards. The initial velocity was only 1,550fps.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62324 - 10/09/06 07:34 AM

Hello

No Daryl sorry the Rodda.......(why did i remember an 'h'?! my mistake sorry!) was a 500x3" black powder rifle........hence the confusion.

In fact,by English law it was and even still is 'off ticket' unless used, i.e. antique and curio calibre.........

14 bore........i have seen one or two of these for sale only,and heard no more........what is it like??? 0.71" calibre,correct?

Thanks for the help,very informative.

Any good reads on the hunters that used the 450/500/577 x3" etc for large game hunts? especially ele?

Ben



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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62349 - 11/09/06 01:08 AM

Groove diameter should be .690, but with muzzleloaders, the bore diameter determines the gauge. In this case, it has a .690" bore, with .012" deep rifling, making it actually a 13 bore to the bottom of the grooves, at .714".
: In Forsyth's day, a groove diameter of .005" and 104" of twist in a 24 to 26" set of tubes (double ML rifle) would make it .700" groove diameter. A .675" ball would require about a .018" patch, whereas I use a .684" ball with .018" patch in my deeper grooves.
: A very recent test put a 3 shot group at 100 meters, shooting off my elbows, into 1" X 7/8" group on centres using the Express sights. We made the rifle in 1986 using a Green River River Works barrel.
: That .500 3" BPE was a popular one for India. A close friend has one such double rifle marked on the rib, in gold script & in Italics, Made of Maharaja ????????????. I think it is a John Blisset, but haven't seen the rifle for many years - memories, you know. It shot splendidly and together with Lyman's, .515 conical 450gr. bullet and around 130gr. r 140gr. Pyrodex. I remember shooting 2 1/2" with 2 lefts and 2 rights at 100 yards.(before change to metric system)

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (11/09/06 01:12 AM)


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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62357 - 11/09/06 06:11 AM

Thankyou Daryl

Sounds like a nice gun you have there!

You know given what you have said,and having seen some of the horrendous pricing on the 8 bore doubles, i wonder if i may purchase a 500/577 and perhaps an 8 shotty,and make slugs for it?! the only 8 gauge i have seen for sale presently,a tolley, is $10,000 US and then i have no idea what condition its bores are in.

Normally they seem to be nearer $15,000

But i have seen a .577 hollis for $3,200 and a w.c scott for $4,000 same calibre.

And...........and English 8 shotty for $600!!!!

Ben


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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62378 - 11/09/06 02:57 PM

I assume you mean smoothbore 8? With little or no chokes, round balls can be loaded just as easily as shot.
: The ball must pass through the choke, if there is one. If no choke, no problem. A series of wads is needed to take up extra space in the case, along with protecting the ball from the powder. Friends of mine used cloth patched balls in 12 bore shells to shoot balls from their full choked duck guns in case a moose wandered by while they were shooting ducks. This happened enough for them to always pack a few round ball loads. With good fit, the balls were much more accurate, and more powerful & deeper penetration than factory slugs. Their loads duplicated the African 12 bore ctg. round ball loads of the 1880's & 90's.
: I shortened the bores of a "Fluid Steel' double underbite, cheap English gun from the early 1900's. At 26", I put a blade front sight, with a flip-up express-type sight. I also mounted a scope for load developement. After a LOT of experimentation, I had both barrels printing together at 100 yards and shooting from 6 to 8" groups, 2 lefts, 2 rights very consistantly. I figured this to be my maximum range on deer or moose, merely due to the accuracy of the smoothbore.
: I developed both smokeless and black powder loads with the smokeless loads producing the same velocities as the black powder ones, and duplicating the loads used in the BP 12 bore black powder ctgs. for the early round ball rifles.
: I see no reason why you couldn't do this with an 8 or 10 bore as well. Those 545 gr. balls I shot did pack quite a whallop. The big bores would be devestating on game.
: Forsyth noted that some large bored ML'ers for the mid 1800's were rifled too fast to take heavy loads for tiger, buffalo and elephant, so the owners merely loaded them appropriately for the game involved and limited themselves to smoothbore range as the balls stripped in their very fast twists, giving no better accuracy than a shotgun loaded with ball.
; You can order a proper sized mould (you tell him the size you want according to your bore and choke size) form Jeff Tanner of England. A google search will give you his web site. The mould quality is good and I have 2 of them, ordered separately. I think they're still less than $30.00 which is pretty cheap for a custom mould diameter made to your specs. An 8 bore would work for everything, anywhere, as long as you develop good loads and don't overextend your accuracy range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62390 - 12/09/06 01:00 AM

Sounds super......thankyou once again Daryl.

But what of the use of slugs in such a gun? i realise that the 8 bore rifles were sometimes smooth bore,and fired some form of conical projectile,or rifled projectile, am i misinformed here?

Hence my thought is,that there is little difference between the rifle and the shotgun,bar shorter barrels and express sights,correct?

Just to reconcile my needs for .577 info etc.......

Can you point me to any good books featuring use of this bpe calibre on ele and rhino?

Thanks again

Ben


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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62395 - 12/09/06 05:51 AM

Conicals are of no use in BP smoothbored guns. They require rifling to stabilize and a tumbling conical reduces needed penetration.
: The 'rifled' slugs sold today for 12'sa and other gauges, the Foster-type, do not spin in the air, but have grooves in the surface to reduce bore contact so they can be shot through any choke without damage. The grooves look good, but don't go all the way to the bottom of the slug, thus prevent the passage of air which in theory might cause the slug to spin. Recovered factory loaded rifled slugs are almost smooth on the outside, with little left of the rifling marks, and this testing was from a non-choked gun. The slugs, undersize at the start, obturate in the bore to fit it, become mch shorter in length and thus the 'lands' on the slug compress against the bore's wall. The obturation is due to the rapid shotgun powders used, and of course, due to the very soft nature, almost pure lead of the slug. This also goes for the Brenneke-type slugs in that there is virtually no spin in the air.
: Round balls should be the only projectiles shot in smooth bored BP guns and are what many of such guns were designed for. The exception of the "Cape Guns" which shot short conicals. These were spun by the short, but deeply rifled 'chokes' on the muzzle end of the tubes. I've always had a passion to rifle the chokes of a modern 12 bore to see the effect, if any. In these, a patched or cose fitting round ball would be the easiest to get to spin enough to stabilize as the round ball requires less spin than any slug.
: Rifled slugs do gain a modicum of accuracy due to the shuttle-cock effect of the hollow base. The hollow base concentrates the slug's weight at the nose, causing the slug's rear to not try and pass the nose in flight. They apear to tip, straighten, tip, straighten, etc, etc. This works fairly well, but rarely do they shoot better than a proper fitting round ball, as proven in my tests and those of my friends. Too, this almost tumbling slug, will lack the penetrative power of the heavier, round ball.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62399 - 12/09/06 08:33 AM

Thankyou

Right now i see...

But what of nitro proofed 8 bore shotty's? what were the round balls designed for in these guns then? big game use? deer use?

Would love to hear more info from you on the 500x3 and 577x3 also.

Thanks very much Daryl.

Ben


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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62421 - 13/09/06 02:42 AM

Round ball BP loads for ctg. guns were designed for shooting all the animals of chase, be they elephant, buffalo, rhino, etc.
: By the time smokeless loads came about, there were no more round ball loads that I know of as all the gauges had switched to conical shooting.
: Baker once said, that in having a slug mould made for his big double, destroyed it's killing/stopping power and led him into dangerous scrapes with animals. Prior to this, it had never failed to floor a charging elephant.
: That speaks quite highly for large bore balls.
: I've no experience with a .577. I did shoot a Wesley Richards 12 bore bar and wood a bit. Nice gun.
: My friend has a 6 bore double ball and shot gun with 34" or 36" tubes. It was a heavy beast, and H&H re-furbished it. When returned to will, it looked brand new. Absoltuely beautiful. They'd re-bored it to 5 bore, but other than that, made no other changes. It still had the rear sight lump, a flat-topped block with platinum line in the centre.
: I seem to recall it was regulated for 8 drams of powder with round ball, which is 218gr. with a 7 bore patched ball. This load would probably do about 1,200fps, maybe 1,300fps. Wil has shot only pellets from it, and did very well on 16 yard trap at the local club, 20 out of 25 and with no chokes, but 3 ounces of shot.


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Daryl


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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62422 - 13/09/06 04:38 AM

I read somewhere that one of the great hunters used his 8 bore for all his hunting needs......deer,elephant...and so on...

Your information is very much appreciated,Daryl.

I have a good idea of what your talking about,in the sense also that i have seen both rifled and smooth bore 8g rifles for sale.....

So,only later the conical rifles came? and when? about 1870? i have seen cape rifles even in 4 bore with one rifled and one smooth barrel.

What your saying is of great interest to me, as it seems one may find or even create a rifle that works as both a shotgun,for small game and a rifle firing balls,for large game. In retrospect,i see that if one was to add some express sights to an 8 shotty, then one would have a very versatile and enjoyable firearm. BP of course,as i cannot see how one could do such things with a nitro version......though to be honest,i may never have seen a smokeless 8 or 4 gauge....shotgun,that is.

Am i correct in the above thoughts,or not?

The .577's are a genuine big game rifle,but of course do not have the horse power as it were,nor this versatility we can see with a smoothbore.

Are these smoothbore rifles not called paradox rifles? Testing my memory here......

Ben


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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62428 - 13/09/06 09:02 AM

The conicals must have come on the scene in the 70's or early 80's. Note, too, that round ball guns were probably used well after they became obsolete, as did flintlock rifle and shotgun continue in use after the 19820's.
: The paradox had rifled chokes with smooth bores and shot the short, pointed, shouldered slugs with one groove, used for an impressed crimp of the shell casing. I expect there was a lubricating disk below the bullet, between wads.
: It is said they didn't screw up shot patterns, which is difficult to believe as any rotation of the shot column would tend to spread it.

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Daryl


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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62430 - 13/09/06 09:53 AM

I see.......

So tell me Daryl, what sort of speed and energy should i be able to get from a bp smooth bore 8 gauge firing balls?

This has me stumped.

Ben


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500Nitro
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62438 - 13/09/06 03:29 PM


Read Taylor's book and some of the old school books
plus COTW.

Thet have most of the info you need.

500 Nitro


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empirevr
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: 500Nitro]
      #62439 - 13/09/06 08:50 PM

Thankyou nitro....

John 'Pondoro' Taylor......which of his many books is the better with regards to the older rounds? He himself was a 375 H&H chap was he not?

Already asked two good 'smiths to keep an eye out for an earlier mauser .375 H&H........

Model 66 any good anyone???

Anyway,back on track........

COTW???

So, i guess if i can convert a shotty 8 English to a multi-use gun by adding sights....and chopping the barrel by some inches?!.....then it seems a good idea.

The 8 bore rifles seem amazingly hard to get hold of.......i have seen one for sale for £6,000/$12,000......but this is a paradox, yet it has long barrels(33") and no leaf sights or rear sights at all.....pot luck shooting?????

The only other 8 for sale is $22,000 which is a lot.......

One was for sale for $10,500 but has gone it seems......

W.W. Greener were the main maker of such guns.......for both ball and conical......

Where have their many guns gone to? made for work,beautiful things......

Ben


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DarylS
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Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: empirevr]
      #62449 - 14/09/06 12:50 AM

Because I don't know the weight of the ball, I cannot figure out the fpe. FPE has little or no relationship to actual likking power. I know there are numbers assigned to ctgs. and their loads, but the numbers mean nothing. You cannot compare a .45 2-7/8 Sharps to a .30/06, power wise, yet they produce the same fpe., not can you compare my .50/70 to a .22 Hornet's hot load in a CZ, yet they produce the same fpe. Thus you cannot compare a round ball from an 8 bore to a .375 or .300 Ultra Mag, or .300 mag, yet they produce, probably, similar fpe.
; The 8 bore is & must be, a smashing round on heaviest game, depending on how it's loaded. The others are small bore rifles that lack the pounding force of the large bores.
; Sorry, but this is the best answer I can come up with.
: Loaded with an appropriate charge and a patched, or wadded round ball, the 8 bore develops tremendous power on animals.
: You should be able to achieve from 1,300fps to 1,500fps velocity from it's round ball. I have a drawn full scale duplication of a group fired by an 8 bore smooth gun with round ball, fired at 60 yards. It contains 3 lefts and 3 rights. The group is a vertical one, 5 1/2" on centres. The group is 5 inches tall and 2-1/2" wide. Another, shot by an 8 bore rifle, had 8 shots at 50 yards in a square 2-3/8" X 1-9/16". This may have had rifled bores of 20" to 22" length. They seem not to have liked longer barrels in the thumpers.
: If you shot a true 8 bore ball, it would weight 7000 divided by 8 = 875gr. At 1,500fps, this would generate 4,375fpe at the muzzle. Out to 50 -75 yards, it would maintain quite splendid power.
: W.W.Greener's 11th Edition of "The Gun and it's Development" states " Possibly the best weapon for large game is this 8 bore with short barrels; but, using the light spherical bullet only, and eight of more drams of powder, + + + + + + + and the velocity and penetrtion at the short ranges at which large game is almost invariably shot will be more than sufficient to penetrate and kill even the largest elephant, whether head or side shot be taken. the accuracy of the large bore rifles and ball guns is very good up to 60 yards with the smooth and 120 with the rifle. The Author (Greener) has in his possession the skull of a large elephant shot by Mr. Carter (smoothbore) of Madras, which shows that the ball from a similar 8 - calibre(bore)rifle(smoothbore) of the author's manufacture--passed right through the skull fro the right to left side, the wound increasing in magnitude as the bullet flattened." 10 drams was the charge, equal to 273 gr. of good grade BP.
: Note that while I have written quite a bit on this subject, I have no first hand experience shooting an 8 bore. My only epxerience is shooting several 12's rifled and smooth, with balls and conicals. The 12 is capable, while the 8 is most impressive, now, as it ws back in 1911, when Greener published the 9th edition.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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empirevr
.375 member


Reged: 03/09/06
Posts: 614
Loc: England,but now Italy.
Re: 8 bore vs 4 bore [Re: DarylS]
      #62458 - 14/09/06 05:03 AM

Well...

Thankyou once again Daryl that is some absolutely superb information you are giving me.

I fully agree with your statements,and of course i realise the difference that the size and weight of the round makes......merely, i was talking of actual preferences,and perhaps uses, then and now.......it seems knock down value has been exchanged for penetration values.

Now most of all the hunters use the .375 H&H it seems, yet before this,i can only guess the 500x3 bp or 577x3 pb,or perhaps even the smaller 450x3/3.25 was the main gun/round used generally......the most proliferent are the 500x3" bpe's.......

I adore your 8 bore info,and have no claim to having ever handled one let alone use it.

I once read something in a book i appear to have lost....due to moving no doubt...that had much info on W.W. Greener. It stated that the 8 bore was their most popular model,and more so...round. This was because the 4 bore,did not give such good penetration due to its sheer size versus its fpe/fps which im guessing wasnt at max,as it already was known to be horrid to fire.

I cannot remember if they gave preference to ball or conical, but the rifles advertised fired both.(paradox,no?)

Seeing as you have used the superb 12 bores, what can you say is the difference in strength between them and a normal 12 gauge shotgun of the age? half the weight,no?

Basically,if one was to create a smooth-bore rifle from an 8 shotty, what would need to be done,and would it be as safe,strong,and usable as the original rifle version?

Thankyou

Ben



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