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banzaibird
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Loc: S.C. Pennsylvania, USA
400/350
      #54883 - 15/04/06 08:27 AM

Anyone out there shooting one? I ask because I sold off another of my homemade DR's and can sell off another and that would cover a 400/350 that began it's life as such. I haven't seen the gun yet doing so on Monday or Tuesday of next week so don't have a lot of specifics now. Just wanted to get an idea on ballistics etc.

Bill


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4seventy
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #55116 - 18/04/06 06:10 PM

Bill,
The original load was quoted as 43 gns cordite with 310 gn bullet for 2000 fps at 16 tons pressure and 2752 ft lbs energy.
Barrel length for that data was most likely 28 inch.
I have used this cartridge a fair bit and it is a good one IMHO.
I run the 310 Woodleigh soft and solids at 2130 fps from a 23 inch barrel in a modern double built with modern steel.

Also use 250 gn Hornady's and Woodliegh softs at around 2350 fps.
Recoil is very soft in an 8 pound double.
SD of the 310 grain bullets is .346.
Cases are available from Bertram or can easily be made from 9,3/74 brass.

Note. post edited as I've been informed that the Kynoch data I originally quoted was not correct.

Edited by 4seventy (20/04/06 12:23 AM)


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banzaibird
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 4seventy]
      #55175 - 19/04/06 06:16 AM

4seventy,

Thanks for the info. That is exactly the type of info I was looking for.

I got out to see the rifle today. It is a Rigby and marked as 350 Rigby. It's also on face and the bores look great. That's the good news. It looks like it spent many years in a less than ideal gun case. The right side of the gun has some visible pitting. Though none of it looks terribly deep. The only problem is the receiver is also pitted and thus the engraving on that side is in need of some serious work. The finish on the wood is also in pretty bad shape but the wood itself seems pretty sound without any really bad marks and no chips or dings.

The guy who currently owns the rifle said he has owned it for 15 years and never fired it. He received it after his Uncle passed away. It has no case or other goodies.

I arranged a day to shoot the gun as I managed to track down 2 boxes of Kynoch ammo. Before we shoot that day though he ok'd me to make a chamber cast and slug the bores. I will also probably be taking some pics at that time.

Anyway thanks again for the info and I'll try to keep you all updated.

Bill



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500Nitro
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #55179 - 19/04/06 06:33 AM


banzaibird

Check what the gun is proofed for before firing the Kynoch
just in case it is proofed for the 225 gn load.

500 Nitro


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4seventy
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #55185 - 19/04/06 08:25 AM

Bill,
Sounds very interesting!
Like 500 Nitro said you must check which loading this rifle was built for as there were two different bullet weights used.
The 400-350 was loaded with the 310 gn bullet but there are a lot of Rigby doubles, often on Webley actions, which were built and regulated for a lighter 225 grain bullet.
This 225 grain loading was called the 350 No2 and is also a very good cartridge.
The true original velocity for the 350 No2 is often claimed to be the same as the rimless "350 Rigby Magnum" but this is NOT CORRECT.

The correct bullet weight for the rifle you're looking at should be stamped on the barrel flats.
I would not attempt to shoot the rifle at all untill you are certain which load the gun was originally chambered for.
The cartridge case is the same for both the 400-350 and the 350 No2 but there is a big difference in bullet length between the 225 grainer and the 310 grain bullet and hence there could be a big difference in throat length for the two chamberings.
Chambering a 400-350 cartridge with 310gn bullet into a gun built for the 350 No2 could result in the longer bullet becomming wedged into the rifling due to the shorter throat meant for the 225 grain bullet and this could raise the pressure to unsafe levels.

If the price is right, the gun is tight, and the bores, throats and chambers are all good, I wouldn't be too concerned about the pitting unless you are after a gun in top condition for a collection.
If you are after a shooter and the rifle has the Rigby name, it sounds like a good find, so long as the price reflects the condition.
Hope it all comes together for you!


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banzaibird
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 4seventy]
      #55187 - 19/04/06 08:40 AM

I'm ahead of you guy's on the loading. I have 1 box of each on the way. That's why the 2 boxes. I figured 5 rounds of the proper load would be enough to tell me if I wanted the gun.

I want the gun as a shooter, so the other stuff doesn't bother me so much. I can deal with that other than the engraving problem.

We haven't got to the nitty gritty on the pricing yet but I'm pretty much willing to pay his ballpark figure so I don't beleive that will be a sticking point. In fact it is a pretty good deal all in all. I figured my homebuilts would be all I could afford. However this even with the needed work should be less than a new chapuis.

Bill


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4seventy
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #55188 - 19/04/06 08:47 AM

Looking forward to hearing more about this rifle and hoping to see some photos as well.

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500Nitro
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #55189 - 19/04/06 08:50 AM


banzaibird,

The Pitting on the enrgaving can be taken out and reengraved
if you are willing to spend the money. It can be done as I have
seen guns brought back from the dead.

Is it a Sidelock or a Boxlock ?

And if a Sidelock is it a Webley or Rigby Bissell ?

Good luck.

500 Nitro


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banzaibird
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #55193 - 19/04/06 09:44 AM

OK, it is a boxlock ejector. It has 26" barrels (actually like 25 1/2").

Other than this I must confess I'm pretty ignorant. This first round was just some basic gawking and pawing of the thing. Then after he gave me his ballpark figure I realized that it was doable so then I began to push for another time to dismantle photograph, chamber cast, shoot etc. I did have the forearm off the gun today when I was checking to make sure it was on face but didn't event hink of checking the proofmarks at that time. At that point I was still waiting to hear the price.

I'm really not overly familiar with the British guns because as I said I didn't think I'd find one I could afford any time in the next decade. Thus as I proceed I'm sure I'll be asking many more questions on exactly what I'm looking at.

The engraving is something that concerns me. One because it is pretty messed up but more because if I own the gun it will bother me if I get everything else straightend out and not that. However I fear the engraving repair could get quite expensive.

Bill


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400NitroExpress
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 4seventy]
      #55236 - 19/04/06 07:12 PM

Bill:

This sounds promising.

The flanged .350s, and the double rifles chambered for them, are confusing at best because what little information that has been published about them is usually wrong.

In reply to:

"The correct bullet weight for the rifle you're looking at should be stamped on the barrel flats."




Barring the extremely rare exception, THIS IS FLAT WRONG. Original .400/.350 and original .350 No. 2 rifles will almost always bear the exact same proof marks. The proof marks for the .400/.350 are, of course, supposed to be "Cordite 43, 310 MAX". The problem is that the proof marks of original .350 No. 2 rifles are almost always "Cordite 43, 310 MAX" also. No. 2s marked "Cordite 51 1/2, 225 MAX" are very rare. Out of something like 20+ No. 2s I've handled over the years, I've only seen two. Thus, unless the rifle is one of the rare exceptions, the proof marks will not help you discover which load it was intended for.

Most .350 doubles will have the appropriate load engraved somewhere, usually on top of the barrels. Absent this information, If the rifle is engraved ".350 Rigby", as opposed to ".400/.350", I would strongly suspect that it is a .350 No. 2.

The correct ballistics for the .400/.350 cartridge were 43 grains Cordite behind a 310 grain bullet for 2000 fps, NOT 2150. Some time ago, I spoke to David Little at Kynoch at some length about the .350s. He speculated that an error in a manufacturer's catalog (probably Nobels) was picked up and repeated in various retailer's catalogs, and the error persists to this day. This error is significant because, for someone trying to duplicate factory ballistics in a vintage .400/.350, 2150 fps would be a serious overload.

For any practical purpose, the ballistics of the .350 Rimless Magnum and the .350 No. 2 were the same. Most references seem to list them at 2600 and 2550 fps respectively - the normal relationship for rimless/flanged pairs. John Taylor stated that the .350 No. 2 was actually loaded hotter than the Rimless. One of our posters here had a lovely Rigby best SLE in .350 No. 2 that he got with a supply of original "Kynoch for Rigby" ammo. He wrote a nice article about that rifle which was published in Double Gun Journal. Ten rounds of the original factory Kynoch averaged 2660 fps over a Pact chronograph from it's 26" barrels.
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4seventy
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #55240 - 19/04/06 09:14 PM

Interesting.
"FLAT WRONG"
Note that I said the correct bullet weight "SHOULD" be stamped on the barrel flats.


400, there are some contradictions in your post which you can maybe clear up.

If as you say a gun has the Cordite 43 310 Max proof marks then this must mean that it has been PROOFED for the 400-350 cartridge which is a 16 ton cartridge.
Then you say if the SAME RIFLE also has 350 No2 on top of the barrels it can shoot a load which gives similar and sometimes better ballistics (and loaded hotter) than a cartridge which is listed at 17.5 tons, the 350 Rigby Magnum!

Add to this the fact that the dimensions I have read for the 350 Rigby Magnum show it is a bigger case by a fair amount than the 350 No2.
If those dimensions are correct this would mean that for the 350 No2 to produce similar or better velocity and be as you say loaded hotter with the 225 gn bullet than the 350 Rigby magnum, the 350 No2 would have to be producing pressures CONSIDERABLY above 17.5 tons due to its lesser capacity.
And you say this is ok in an old gun proofed at 16 tons?
I wonder what pressure your mates rifle was producing to get 2660 fps in his 350 No2.

In reply to:

For any practical purpose, the ballistics of the .350 Rimless Magnum and the .350 No. 2 were the same. Most references seem to list them at 2600 and 2550 fps respectively - the normal relationship for rimless/flanged pairs.




What proof is there that these two cartridges were ever actually rimless/flanged pairs?

Anyone got true case dimensions for the rimless 350 Rigby Magnum?


Bill,
The velocity I quoted for the 400-350 was from Nobel, Standard Ballistics for Kynoch Cartridges 1925.
Apologies for any errors.






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400NitroExpress
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 4seventy]
      #55282 - 20/04/06 06:06 AM

Alan:

If you found my post contradictory, then you got the gist of it. My point is that, with Brit .350 doubles, you can't go by the proof marks to determine which load the rifle was intended for. That is contrary to the ususal rule with Brit rifles.

I became a student of the British double some years before I bought my first one. After buying my first couple, I found the proof marks monumentally confusing and so, became a serious student of those as well. Early on in that long process, I decided that I wanted a medium bore double as well and began looking for a .400/.350. I immediately noticed the weirdness of the flanged .350s. Because I found the proof marks of the No. 2s so utterly inexplicable, I have, ever since, ALWAYS carefully examined every Brit .350 double that I've had a chance to handle. Others I didn't handle at all, but called the dealers who had them and asked about the proof marks and information engraved on top of the barrels. While I don't claim to be the Great Sage, I don't imagine there are many who have paid as particular attention to this particular issue for as long as I have. What I stated in my initial post, I am certain, is correct.

Your comments about the pressures are noted and correct, but that isn't the point. The point is that you have to deal with what was done with these rifles, not what should have been done.

In order to answer your fair question, and to try to help Bill a little, I'll try to explain what I think happened with these rifles as clearly as I can, but I'm afraid that it's confusing. First, it's worth noting that virtually all of the British .400/.350 and .350 No. 2 doubles that I've handled have been Webley products, sold and/or finished by Rigby or Gibbs. I may have seen one from another retailer, but don't recall it. These would have been "bought in" from Webley as proven barreled actions "in the white" and stocked and finished by the retailer, or bought in complete. Bill, the next opportunity you have to look at this rifle, look for a five digit number in one of two places - on the short rib (between the flats and the fore-end loop, number will be 10000 to 12000) - or on the left side of the fore-end loop, hard up against the barrels (look closely or you'll miss it, number in the 13000 range). If this is a Rigby rifle, it should be there. This is Webley's number. A very few Rigby boxlock rifles were bought in from Wilkes, in which case it won't be there.

Another key piece to this puzzle is that both cartridges use the exact same case - indeed, original Kynoch .350 No. 2 ammo was often headstamped ".400/.350" - and the same diameter bullet. This was an invitation to the short-cuts that I think happened along the way. I believe something very similar happened with the .450/.400s.

The last element is the methodology of British Proof. New British guns are proved as early in the manufacturing process as possible. Why waste bench time finishing a gun that may fail proof? Thus, they are proved as barreled actions "in the white", before stocking and finishing.

So, Webley barrels up an action with .350 barrels for Rigby, Gibbs, et al. At this point, absent specification from Webley, it's just a ".350" to the London Proof House, so it's proved for the 43 Cordite/310 bullet load. Also at this point, the retailer may not know which load the rifle will ultimately be regulated for, so the order to Webley doesn't specify. The retailer then regulates it to fill orders for either cartridge as needed. Fast and loose with the proof rules to be sure, but the rifles themselves are mute testimony to the fact that they did so. I say again, the overwhelming majority of Brit DRs originally delivered as .350 No. 2's, with language engraved on top of the barrels specifying ".350 No. 2" and "225 grain bullet" bear "Cordite 43, 310 MAX" proof marks.

As I previously stated, I had a long conversation with David Little at Kynoch about the .350s. Since most of the DRs in use in the world today are pre-war guns, one of the things that the new Kynoch company does is shoot as many vintage DRs as they can with both vintage Kynoch and current Kynoch ammo in order to fine tune their current stuff to match the old. They also extensively pressure test both. When I said that I found the proof marks on No. 2 rifles strange, David interrupted me by saying "Yeah, most were proved for the .400/.350 load." He did say that the No. 2 was a higher pressure round. His explanation for the proof marks is the one given above.

Perhaps the guns proved "Cordite 51 1/2, 225 MAX" were guns that were "bought in" complete from Webley, and were therefore known to be No. 2s specifically when they arrived at the proof house? I don't know, but that sounds likely.

Does this mean that No. 2s proved "Cordite 43, 310 MAX" were technically "out of proof" when sold? Hell, yes. Specific to Rigby, this isn't the only instance of this that I know of. I've noticed a number of .450 3 1/4" Rigby double rifles engraved something like "Rigby's Special .450 Cordite Big Game Rifle", "For Cordite and 480 Grain Nickel Bullet" in the 17000 to 17100 serial number range, all with straight black powder proof marks. These rifles were delivered in the 1904-1907 period. The .450 Nitro was introduced in 1898, but even under the 1896 rules of proof, semi-smokeless proof was required for rifles chambered for a nitro cartridge and marks specific to semi-smokeless (nitro) proof had been in use since 1887. These rifles were sold as .450 Nitro Expresses, but were proved as BPEs. Were these rifles "out of proof" when sold? Does a one-legged duck swim in a circle? Stranger than fiction.

Your previous reference to the length of the throat is well taken. I've always wondered about that myself. Did most of the No. 2s just have long throats? Perhaps a little freebore partly explains how they got the velocity without pressure problems? I don't know.

The bottom line is: for the British flanged .350 DRs, if the proof marks say "Cordite 43, 310 MAX", you don't know which cartridge the rifle is intended for, absent additional information engraved on top of the barrels. The proof marks for both will usually be the same. If there is no additional information provided, I don't know what you do.
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banzaibird
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #55283 - 20/04/06 06:48 AM

Wow, great posts.

Would it be helpful to make the chamber casts extra long so I can check the amount of freebore on the cast and get an idea how far out the ogive of the bullet can be seated?

So is the general concensus then that provided the O.A.L. of the 310 load isn't on the lands that it as wll as the No. 2 load can be fired in the same gun? Even if the pressure for the number 2 is higher? I obviously will shoot what it's marked for if I can clarify such but would be interested to see how the other load groups.

This information is great and I'll look for everything and hopefully be able to get some good pics. It'll be a couple of weeks till I have the ammo in hand so it will be awhile till I get more info.

Bill


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400NitroExpress
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #55286 - 20/04/06 08:02 AM

Bill:

With any pre-war Brit double that is new to me, I'm certifiably paranoid. Not so much from the fear of blowing it up...I just HATE the idea of abusing them, and want to be certain that what I do is right.

Are the marks on the flats "Cordite 43, 310 MAX"? Is there no other information on top of the barrels? If this is the case, my operational hypothesis would be that it is a .400/.350, not a No. 2. Next, get off an inquiry with the Rigby serial number to Paul Roberts at J. Roberts & Son in London. Tell Paul what you have, and what you're trying to figure out. Yes, Paul sold Rigby in 1997 and no, you can't get any data out of the new owners. However, Paul kept photocopies of the Rigby records. The data in the records may specify which .350 it was delivered as, if you're lucky.

Yes, cast the chambers long enough to get all of the leade. Slug the bores. Next, find some original Kynoch .400/.350 ammo. Search the net. Definitely check with Lewis Drake. Dismount the barrels, push the extractors all the way in, and see if a shell will drop all the way in with no additional assistance. If so, since the rifle is proved for that shell, it should be safe to fire it in. If the barrels shoot wide, it may have been regulated for the No. 2. If the shell won't drop all the way in, it may be a No. 2.

If it looks like it may be a No. 2, I wouldn't pull the trigger on a No. 2 round until I was as absolutely certain as is possible that it is. Have a conversation with David Little about it. Again, TRY to find some original No. 2 ammo and fire a few rounds of that first. Proceed with care.

If this rifle is what I suspect and the barrels are in good shape with nice bores, it is worth correcting it's problems properly as long as the price is commensurate with the work required. Most Rigby boxlocks were Webley's which are widely regarded as among the best boxlock DRs ever made. Tain't junk you're playin' with.
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4seventy
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #55300 - 20/04/06 10:17 AM

400,
A very informative post for sure.
If true it suggests *someone* was extremely reckless in their abuse of proof laws at that time.
What you're suggesting is that they were happy to offer guns proofed for a 16 ton cartridge yet chambered for a cartridge with the same ballistics yet smaller in capacity than the 17.5 ton 350 rigby magnum and therefore producing pressures WELL ABOVE 17.5 tons.
This would also suggest that anyone thesedays firing the claimed 2660 fps 350 No2 loads in double rifles proofed for the lower pressure 400-350, could also be being somewhat reckless regarding keeping pressures at safe levels.

Personally, I think there could be more to the story.


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banzaibird
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 4seventy]
      #55315 - 20/04/06 01:31 PM

Ok, This next request is going to sound a bit funny. However I can't think of a better group of guy's to ask. That in mind I'd prefer the replies to come to me by PM if possible.

I've not only been reading through my book collection trying to glean information but have also been checking things out on the net. This has led me across a few Rigby double for sale. I didn't realize the price that most seem to be going for. This has led me to a problem. The gent who currently owns the rifle gave me a ballpark figure of $5,000 for this Rigby. Now I understand it needs some work but after looking about it seems that he may not understand what he has. In good conscious I can't underpay him if he doesn't realize it and it's worth a lot more. Now I know I've given few details and don't have any pics to share yet but what do most of you guy's think would be a fair price for this double? I'm not look for exact pricing but a ballpark figure. I'd appreciate those that deal in these guns more frequently could give me their thoughts and opinions, please feel free to do it via PM.

Bill


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500Nitro
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #55318 - 20/04/06 02:02 PM

banzaibird

I know where you are coming from BUT if he wants $5000 for it,
buy it for $5000 before someone else does.

Also, from your description, it is not a perfect gun
and you WILL have to do some work on it.

IF you can buy it for $5000, then this allows you to spend
some good moey on getting it done up (including the engraving / pitting)
WITHOUT over capitalising on the gun.

Overcapitalising on a gun is what alot of people do and then it is priced
too highly if / when they want to sell it.

Remember - you are taking the risk, not him,

The gun with the work done will then be worth what it should be.

I did not PM this as I think the info is good knowledge for everyone
but PM me anytime.

I hope this helps.


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mickey
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #55319 - 20/04/06 02:13 PM

Good advice. Bringing the rifle back may still put it over the value.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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500Nitro
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Re: 400/350 [Re: mickey]
      #55320 - 20/04/06 02:27 PM

Mickey,

Thanks.

We don't have much info on the gun
so it is hard to make a judgement but if the rest of the gun
is in good nick and bores good, it may well be worth it.

Add a case and a few accessories and you have a good
outfit you could keep for 10 - 20 years.

If buying it to try and make a profit, then I would say no
and have turned down similar guns in the past.

BANZAIBIRD - Make sure the pitting and therefore
the dampness that occured di NOT extend to the RIBS
or Chopper Lump area of the barrels. IF it got into the
RIBS, you will have problems.

CHECK the soundness of the RIBS to see that they ring true.

I am NOT trying to put you off the gun, just giving you things
to check that I would, especially with what you have told us so far.

I think everyone who has posted a reply knows what it is like to buy
guns like this and you are doing the right thing by asking so keep
going - you are on the right track.

Good luck.

500 Nitro

Edited by 500Nitro (20/04/06 03:19 PM)


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400NitroExpress
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #55322 - 20/04/06 03:07 PM

500 Nitro makes the most cogent point - you're accepting the risk. To me, the barrels need to be NICE to make this project worthwhile. If they are, with what little you've given us to go on, you could end up right side up in it, as long as no significant unforeseen problems arise. For example, you seem to think that the wood is a go. What if there are hidden problems in the stock head that dictate a re-stock? To have that done correctly can easily cost $3K or more, and there goes your margin.
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4seventy
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #55399 - 21/04/06 09:09 PM

400,
Do you have any original factory ballistic data for the 350 No2?
I would be interested to know the the weight of cordite, pressure, velocity and barrel length details if you have them.
I have lots of info on the 400-350 but little on 350 No2.
Thanks


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400NitroExpress
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 4seventy]
      #55406 - 21/04/06 11:38 PM

Alan:

The load data I've seen given for the No.2 has always been 53-55 grains square flake nitrocellulose with 225 grain bullet. The only reference to Cordite I can recall are the marks on the 2 Rigby's mentioned (a "D" boxlock and a best sidelock). I've seen it listed at both 2550 and 2600 fps.

The .350 Rimless was ususally listed with 62 grains of an unspecified nitro cellulose at 2600 or 2625 fps. Fleming does list a load of 56 Cordite for it. Kynoch says standard ballistics were for a 24" barrel. I've never seen it listed for the No. 2, but the the standards for the double cartridges were almost always developed in 28" barrels, sometimes longer.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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400NitroExpress
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 4seventy]
      #55420 - 22/04/06 01:57 AM

OK, I was just as curious, and thought I would try to cut through this Gordian Knot. So, I called Kynoch. Sorry, but all this is gonna do is stir some more shit.

I asked David if he had ever pressure and velocity tested any vintage Kynoch .350 No. 2. He said yes and that pressure and velocity were very close to original published data. He also pointed out that the ammunition was old (Kynoch dropped it in the mid-50s). I pointed out that published data seemed to be scarce. He said he didn't think that it had been published since before WWI. He said standards were 2550 fps for 16 tons.

I told him of Bill's rifle and asked about the idea of firing both loads to see which it was regulated for. He said he has done same, but with the Rigby's found the throat too short to chamber original Kynoch 310 grain. He almost insisted that, since this rifle is specifically a Rigby double, it will be a .350 No. 2. I'm inclined to agree. I don't know how things are in Oz, but .400/.350 doubles are as uncommon as sympathy here. The No. 2s are much, much more common.

During our discussion, he also reiterated that the proof marks on British .350 No. 2 doubles are those of the .400/.350.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

Edited by 400NitroExpress (22/04/06 03:53 AM)


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4seventy
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #55496 - 22/04/06 08:42 PM

400,
Thanks for that.


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banzaibird
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 4seventy]
      #56315 - 03/05/06 09:40 PM

1 box of the ammo arrived yesterday. I should be getting the other box in a day or two then I'll make arrangements to meet with the guy to shoot the gun. I'll keep you all informed.

Bill


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banzaibird
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #61272 - 16/08/06 11:21 PM

Well its been a while since I started this thread. The guy who had the rifle had second thoughts on selling it and had backed out of a deal. Anyway to make a long story short he sent it to somebody for evaluation (don't know who) and they told him it would take at least $15,000 to restore it. Thus he was no longer interested in keeping the rifle. I ended up getting it for evan less than we were originally talking about for price.

This will be a long term project for me. Some of the work I'll be able to do myself but some will need to be sent away. Currently I've had the action annealed and it is making its way between a couple of engravers to see first who can and who wants to try to work on the engraving problems. I also think that the little bit of pitting on the right barrel will be able to be covered by adding a bit of engraving to the breech end of the barrels.

Anyway the reason I'm giving the update is that it dawned on me that I had the action annealed for the engravers but when it comes to rehardening I'm not sure what to tell the company. Thus anyone have an idea of the hardness or process that a DR receiver should go through?

Bill


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banzaibird
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #61273 - 16/08/06 11:25 PM

Oh as a follow up. It's a 350 #2. The 400/350 ammo wouldn't even chamber. I shot some original Kynoch ammo and got a group just over 3 inches at 50 meters. I currently am getting some dies made from the fired cases. I also just recently sent off a letter to Paul Roberts with the serial number.

For those that might have wondered.

Bill


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400NitroExpress
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #61403 - 19/08/06 01:47 AM

Bill:

I figured this would be a No. 2. Dies for the No. 2 are the same as those for the .400/.350. You should be able to get them as standard dies from RCBS.

Did you ever look for the Webley number on it?
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banzaibird
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #61414 - 19/08/06 08:27 AM

Yep a #2. It said so on the top of the barrel. I must have missed it the first time I had looked at it in my excitement.

Not that I have anything agaisnt RCBS (I have many of their dies) but I really like Redding Dies. For the difference in cost I decided to get custom made to the chambers. I sent 2 fired from each barrel and specified that when I talked with them that it was a double and might vary so all cartridges needed evaluated for the dies.

To tell you the truth I didn't see a number on the bottom rib. Though I didn't look on the hook for a number. I took pictures of the gun but haven't got that roll of filmed developed yet. The gun as I said is currently on a roundabout.

Bill



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4seventy
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #61511 - 21/08/06 10:15 PM

banzaibird,
What is the bullet weight stamped on the barrel flats, 310gn or 225gn?


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banzaibird
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 4seventy]
      #61515 - 21/08/06 11:25 PM

The proof marks read 310. However Kynoch 400-350 ammo with the 310 bullet won't even chamber because the throat isn't long enough.

Bill


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4seventy
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #61517 - 22/08/06 12:05 AM

Bloody Poms!

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banzaibird
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Re: 400/350 [Re: 4seventy]
      #61518 - 22/08/06 12:15 AM

That leads me to a question. How did they proof it for a load that it won't even chamber?

Bill


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4seventy
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #61519 - 22/08/06 12:43 AM

Precisely.
Then to add insult to injury, Rigby decides to add their own stamping/engraving for a totally different load.

Kinda makes a bit of a mockery of British proof doesn't it?


Edited by 4seventy (22/08/06 07:17 AM)


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400NitroExpress
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #61536 - 22/08/06 07:22 AM

Bill:

In those days, they didn't use a jacketed bullet for proof. IIRC, they used a lead bullet wrapped in greased paper that would have been heavier than 310 grains.

The Webley number probably isn't on the short rib, it's more likely on the left side of the fore-end loop. If it's a Rigby boxlock, it's a Webley product and the number will be there somewhere. Very, very few Rigby boxlock rifles came from other makers.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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bonanza
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Re: 400/350 [Re: banzaibird]
      #79348 - 25/05/07 03:54 AM

And......

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"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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