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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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Yogi000
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Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or?
      #51251 - 03/03/06 08:12 AM

Would a 12 gauge side by side with 25 inch barrels in cylinder / cylinder with an Anson & Deeley Boxlock, 3 inch magnum chambers, dedicated to shooting SLUGS with ramped front site and express type rear sight be considered a BIG BORE GUN to you?

Edited by Yogi000 (03/03/06 08:13 AM)

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bonanza
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: Yogi000]
      #51255 - 03/03/06 09:20 AM

Hell yes!

You are talking about the Sabatti, right?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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tinker
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: Yogi000]
      #51277 - 03/03/06 12:33 PM

Yeah buddy!!

That's a big bore gun any way you look at it.
Note that back when in the heyday of the British rifle matches there were specially built smooth bore large bore rifles that did quite well on paper.

Shoot what you got!


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Yogi000
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: tinker]
      #51364 - 04/03/06 05:02 AM

Actually it is made by a small guild house in Brescia Italy, It is called the Solvio Brignoli Double Barreled SlugGun. Side by side. Really handsome and strong.

I'm working on recoil management on it now and finding the most deadly slug and powder combo that also has the greatest accuracy out to 25, 60 and then 100 yards. I wouldn't need to go farther. I like close work.

As a bow hunter and also a person who just likes to get as close as possible, this approach (double barrled slug gun) just makes sense to me. Plus so many dangerous game have been taken with double barrel shot guns through the years. I am surprised more people aren't getting into it. Double barrel slug gunning is FUN! I'm having more fun than with ANY other gun!

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DarylS
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: Yogi000]
      #51366 - 04/03/06 05:18 AM

Sounds similar to the .725" bore'd "Fluid Steel" double I shortened to 24" (or was it 26") and put express sights on. My best loads used round balls - best accuracy and performance running 1,500fps with .715 balls(545gr.) and .684" balls(484gr.) & specific wadding - mostly tabulated on another post-thread about loading slugs.
; Lee and Lyman both have .690" moulds and Lyman has .715"RB's.
: If your gun is over=bored, it may have .735" bores and Lyman makes a .735" round ball mould.
: Jeff Tanner in England will make any size RB mould you want for $30.00US.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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8x56mn
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: Yogi000]
      #51367 - 04/03/06 05:21 AM

We who live in Western NY are forced to hunt deer with rifled shotgun slugs. Believe you me slugs today are extremely accurate. I have several guns that will group 1-1/2 groups at 100yds. I'm trying to get a load for my 16 ga. drilling to use just for the fun of it. Its is truly amazing what a 12 gage Copper Solid will penetrate. I really am surprised that more people don't try them in Africa. I know ,I know there not a double rifle


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bonanza
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: Yogi000]
      #51368 - 04/03/06 05:32 AM

Post some pictures.

Where did you buy it?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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Yogi000
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: bonanza]
      #51371 - 04/03/06 05:53 AM

Pictures will have to wait till next week. Digital camera is down.

...Yes, many safaris hunts essentially ended with the double slug gun taking the game. I read one story where the assistant guide was walking back to camp with the slug gun while the client and the main guide who stayed in the brush were attacked by a lion. Hearing the racket the assistant guide ran back and took the lion out with the slug gun.

Yea, I know not an express rifle. But still BIG fun to shoot! And mighty deadly.

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doublegunfan
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: Yogi000]
      #51384 - 04/03/06 07:12 AM

Yogi,

You will know you're firing a big bore gun when you compare the holes in your paper targets to your friends' by your side on the range! You don't need a spotting scope to see them at 50 meters!

Fred

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Yogi000
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: doublegunfan]
      #51388 - 04/03/06 07:40 AM

Interesting comment. I was thinking the same thing last night as I was looking at optimum diameters of slugs in a 12 bore cylinder bore. .760 is a pretty big round hole and I was realizing THAT is one of the things I DO really like about big bore shooting compared to 30 cal and less rifle shooting... those pewny holes. Even with my 300Win Mag I almost always have to scope it to see those little buggers. Big Blam. Big Holes.

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DarylS
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: Yogi000]
      #51393 - 04/03/06 08:09 AM

Nominal bore sizes for 12 bore is .727" to .730". Today, some are over-bored to about .735" or so to reduce recoil but mainly in the trap guns. .760" is just over 11 bore as 10 gauge is .77 calibre.
: I think the fellow from NY was talking about rifled shotguns, not a smoothbored gun. In any event, 1.5" at 100yards is usually a good group for an off-the-shelf .30/06 with a 4X scope with factory ammo, let alone a sabot'd shotgun slug. I am not saying some rifled barrels aren't capable, just that I've just never observed it done. I have seen 2-1/2" and 3" groups at 100yards from sabot'd slug laods in rifled 12 bore barrels mounted with scopes.
; The sabots generally don't do well in a smoothbore in my experience. The old=style BRI's with the 440gr. hour-glass shaped slug generally show tipping at 25yds, let alone 50yards, but they do shoot wel in some guns. Their only down-side (except for innacuracy in mnay smoothbores, is the reduction to .50 calibre.
: Be aware that the double shotgun adds regulation to the equation and many of today's shotguns may have too much convergence of the barrels to shoot a variety of loads. I was lucky with mine, perhaps as the breeches weren't overly wide. As well, the double's tapered barrels give quite a bit of elevation to the breech and has to be taken into consideration with iron sights.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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Yogi000
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: DarylS]
      #51407 - 04/03/06 10:32 AM

Daryl---Thanks for the correction. .730 is correct. My number is fat.

I would hope a factory made double barreled slug gun would be made to regulate at 50 or 60 meters or even 100 meters. The gun I'm getting is an Italian made so I suspect Fiocchi's were used to regulate it. I ordered some along with 3 other brands and ball/slug sizes... Daryl I took your advice and went with as large diameter as I could get given the barrels are spec'd out at Cylinder/Cylinder... Although this is my first Italian gun and I've heard it said that European choke sizes tend to run tighter than makers on this side of the pond.

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DarylS
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: Yogi000]
      #51482 - 05/03/06 04:43 AM

If some care is given to components and charges, there shouldn't be a problem with odd-named cases. The capacity is what is important. A comparrison could be made using an innert filler.
: I do strongly suggest a modern loading manual that has a good variety of shotshell hull makes listed in the data.
: Shotshell length is very important. The 3" chambers could be problems as that much room isn't needed and the extra length must be taken up with wads which add weight to the 'ejecta'. Due to extra wadding, etc, 3" hulls generally don't give much if any increase in velocity over 2 3/4" hulls. Increased case capacity makes abig difference in rifle calibres, but not in shotshells, possibly due to the very low presures used.
: I would sort out a variety of loading data for various brands of cases, with a given ball of slug weight, then pick the smallest charge used in the lot of cases, and start 1 gr. UNDER that amount. That should be quite safe as most data for reloading is listed well under maximum pressures. For expample, we know that modern shotshells are loaded to 11,000 LUP and Lyman's listings in their manuals run from 7,000 to 10.500 LUP normally. The important aspect, is the pressures are listed in good manuals and data from manuals without pressure data, shouldn't be used when developing slug or RB loads. It is important to know what sort of cussion you have. I am not suggesting increasing data over what the manuals say, just that it is nice to know that THIS data shows 8,400LUP, so it is very safe in my gun, not on the hairy edge of the scale where a small mistake in loading will possibly blow the gun apart. I thought I would add that as a warning - it is imortant to take care and go slowly.
: I have heard of shotguns with 3" chambers that were exceptionally accurate using 2 3/4" hulls.
: Keep me posted of load developement - got me excited now, and I may have to look around for another suitable double for modification to a SxS 12 bore ball gun. They have a charm, feel and handling characteristics that cannot be met with any other barrel system.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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BlainSmipy
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: Yogi000]
      #51510 - 05/03/06 11:03 AM

12 bore BP gun, that would be fun.

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DarylS
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: BlainSmipy]
      #51681 - 07/03/06 06:18 AM

I'd want hammers on a BP 12 bore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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8x56mn
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: DarylS]
      #51684 - 07/03/06 06:40 AM

I think the fellow from NY was talking about rifled shotguns, not a smoothbored gun. In any event, 1.5" at 100yards is usually a good group for an off-the-shelf .30/06 with a 4X scope with factory ammo, let alone a sabot'd shotgun slug. I am not saying some rifled barrels aren't capable, just that I've just never observed it done. I have seen 2-1/2" and 3" groups at 100yards from sabot'd slug laods in rifled 12 bore barrels mounted with scopes.

Well sire actually never put a ruler to the paper, but I would call 3 shots 2 ragged holes, 4x scope off the bench, pretty good wouldn't you. Yes these are sabots, custom rifled/cantilevered mounted barrel in Remington 1100 and another on the Ithaca Deer Slayer II, that has the barrel screwed into the receiver. These things are truly deadly, no brag, just fact.

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DarylS
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: 8x56mn]
      #51690 - 07/03/06 08:41 AM

Yes, of course, it's excellent, fantasic accuracy for a "custom rifled" single barreled shotgun shooting small-calibre slugs in a plastic sabot - and this has exactly what to do with a smoothbored, cylinder bored and choked side by side that won't shoot sabots worth a hoot?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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8x56mn
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: DarylS]
      #51731 - 08/03/06 12:30 AM

Nothing I guess what was I thinking anyway.

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srose
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: Yogi000]
      #51740 - 08/03/06 02:28 AM

Sure, I have a Chapuis 12 ga with rifle sights and its regulated for Brenneke slugs. Its a neat gun and shoots really well. Shoots good with those cheap Wolfe slugs to. The gun was lots cheaper than a double rifle and I bought it to practice with. I have a Chapuis 470 that I took to Africa. The shotgun lets you shoot alot and its very cheap to shoot. Very good training for reloading fast. Good general hunting gun for most anything. The Wolfe slugs are very cheap and shoot really well in any smooth bore.

Sam

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DarylS
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: 8x56mn]
      #51741 - 08/03/06 03:07 AM

It's great that your 12 bore shoots sabots so well and it is understandable that you are very proud of it - and indeed, it is an achievement. Thanks for letting us know how well a rifled 12 'can' shoot, even if it is with small bullets.
: For years, I've had a yen to buy a resonablely good .410 double 3" chambers and cut the barrels off at 26". I'd then have them rifled and use maybe 9.3X74 brass, BlackPowder and cast bullets. Maybe one day.
: For now, I'll look for a good double-lump smooth 12 bore for a ball gun. After hunting in this porvince for 30 years, I've yet to have to shoot a big game animal past 95 yards. Properly loaded, the smooth 12 will handle tham all - and be fun doing it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (08/03/06 04:09 AM)

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8x56mn
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: DarylS]
      #51747 - 08/03/06 05:06 AM

That does sound very cool. Tell me how expensive is it to have barrels rifled. I have a line on a LC Smith .410 for not to much cash that perhaps I could do just that as well sounds just like a great project,now that I'm home and nearing retirement.

Yes your right about not shooting past 100 yds. Actually almost all my shots are 50-75. I use the Light Field slugs, they are superb for accuracy and they have tremendous shock value.

The entire sabot with sleeve travels with the bullet . I have recovered a couple and they still had the sleeve attached. They say that the sleeve is supposed to impart upon impact, but I have never seen one that did. I can tell you that I have never had deer run yet after being hit.They are shaped very much like the Breneke and make a very large entry hole in a deer for sure.

NY is going to experiment with opening up some of our southern counties where I live to rifle hunting for deer, kind of scary as most of the land here is open farm land and vineyards, with rolling hills. I visited Napa Valley and it looks very much like here except we have the lakes.

Northern NY is pretty much heavy timber and brush and you can use rifles there. I'm having a lot of fun with my drilling. Did shoot a doe with it last season, but was disappointed in the performance of the slug (9.3x72r)


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DarylS
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: 8x56mn]
      #51751 - 08/03/06 05:24 AM

I sent you an e-mail as the .410 rifle is off-topic.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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doublegunfan
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: Yogi000]
      #52139 - 11/03/06 10:08 PM

Yogi,

Have you already received your new gun?

Fred

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Yogi000
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: doublegunfan]
      #52352 - 14/03/06 03:32 AM

Hi all. I'm back. My mother passed away last Monday evening so I travelled back home to be with family and put her to rest. It truly was a merciful blessing though, since she has been suffering with diabetes and was about to have her second leg amputated. But, naturally, it was a week of grieving.

I am back to work now. I did receive my 12 gauge double smooth bored Brignoli. It is a beautiful gun.

I fired some 3 inch magnums and some high and low powered 2 and 3/4 slugs. I mostly used Remington and Winchester since the Brenneke's and others did not arrive till just now.

Overall, the recoil was NOT as bad as anticipaetd although I would say it is DECISIVE RECOIL. the 1600 fps Winchesters in 2 and 3/4 I thought were meaner, sharper hitting in the recoild department than the 3 inch mags!

I found I was primarily shooting 3 inches low (all well grouped within 2 inches) off hand at 25 yards. The rear site is not adjustable, from what i can tell.

Perhaps I am primarily shouldering the gun a bit high. What do you think? Out of 10 shells I had 2 that were perfect bulls-eyes and 8 that were all low. And the bulls were the 3rd shot and the 8th shot. One was right barrel and one was left. But overall it seemed I was more consistently shooting low.

Overall, I am very pleased with the slug gun. It is truly beautiful. I just need to work out the shooting low situation, and I do want to lessen the recoil some more. It came with a not much of a 1/4 rubber pad on the stock. I also have the Brenneke and Fiocchi slugs to try.

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DarylS
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Re: Big Bore Gun? Yes or no? Or? [Re: Yogi000]
      #52360 - 14/03/06 05:15 AM

Sorry to hear about your Mom, Yogi - always a sad occasion. My sympathies.
: Very please you are happy with yor new double, though.
: A pad might be a good idea too.
: Sights can be changed - higher rear, or lower front - just one of the problems of picking a load, then sighting for it. You will probably find heavier slugs to impact higher on the target as the impacts are recoil induced with low velocity rounds. As well, if one becomes concious of the recoil, one tends to pull lower right on the target.
: To watch for - slugs from each barrel crossing each other, shooting parallel or diverging, shooting further apart than the centres of the bore. different loads and different slug weights may have different points of impact.
: 1 ounce at 1,600fps or 1,700fps as claimed on the box of slugs I bought ome time ago, puts it's power range about the same as a 16 bore round ball gun used in India for Elephant, Buffalo and Tiger. The difference is the round ball used back in the 1800's had much superior penetration. The power 'potential' is there in your double, now to harness it. This brings us back to learning to load your own ammo with round balls, if making this very best double smoothbore it can be, is your primary interest. Your double gun has the potential to smash both shoulders of an elk or moose, if loaded properly, of course. They are truely impressive.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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