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JPeterson
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Reged: 08/10/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Wisconsin USA
Rigby quality
      #44247 - 17/12/05 02:25 PM

It seems to me that Rigby receives some very bad press around here. I was wondering why this is? From what I understand so far, a Rigby uses Merkel actions and Pac-Nor barrels, which is why some members believe that they should be in the same price range as Searcy's.

For example, a new Searcy deluxe with chopper lump barrels is $19,000; isn't the fit and finish of the Rigby worth and extra $4,500?

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500Nitro
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: JPeterson]
      #44256 - 17/12/05 03:28 PM

JPeterson

Rgby quality ? What quality !!!

Since I am one who often derides the US Rigby, I'll start.

The term "Mexican Rigby" actually came from a friend of mine
in the US - a fellow collector of fine English guns - who had had a
conversation with some fellow Americans regarding the whole purchase
of the name "Rigby" and the use of it on the newer "European" guns.

Reagrding the comment "isn't the fit and finish of the Rigby
worth and extra $4,500? "

I am not going to compare them to Searcy's as I haven't handled
enough Searcy's and done a SxS comparison to comment.

However I will say WHAT fit and finish on the Rigby's.

Have a look at some of the photos in the Double Gun Journal
over the last 5 years or so and you can see the faults in the stock to metal
fit, chequering etc etc.

Finally, I just don't like the fact that they are trying to use a very traditional
name to sell guns that IMHO are below the standard that that name obtained
over many years of gun building.

And that's why they may have purchased the name / brand but they couldn't
use the Royal Warrants.

When "Rigby" make a gun like the Sidelock Rigby Bissell Rising Third Bite
and have the graceful lines of one, then I might start to take them seriously.

And if Searcy gets going and manages to make a Sidelock Rigby Bissell Rising
Third Bite, as I have said before, all credit to him and my estimation of him will
go up 10 fold and way above "Rigby" - and good luck to him - I hope he can do it.

Anyway, that's got that off my chest !

500 Nitro

Edited by 500Nitro (17/12/05 03:40 PM)

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44258 - 17/12/05 03:33 PM

Nice post, summed it up very well.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Rigby quality [Re: bulldog563]
      #44272 - 17/12/05 04:22 PM

I've seen enough vintage Rigbys that were totally wanked that I think I would take my chances with something else.

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500Nitro
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: 500grains]
      #44273 - 17/12/05 04:46 PM



500grains

Can you explain further your comment
"I've seen enough vintage Rigbys that were totally wanked"

I've seen one that had been abused by it's owner that I left
well alone but the rest have all been good.

500 Nitro

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: 500grains]
      #44275 - 17/12/05 05:54 PM

500Grains,

I agree. There are vintage Rigbys out there that make me wonder too.

Curl


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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44280 - 18/12/05 12:17 AM

500nitro - Examples:

out of regulation (badly)
cracked stocks (sidelocks)
one ejector working, one not
trigger guard falling off
misfiring
Interestingly, none were off face.

Maybe Rigby designed a good action, but I have seen some that did NOT stand the test of time. So I am not convinced that an old Rigby is any better than a new Rigby. In fact, based on the rifles I have seen, a vintage Rigby would be a very high risk purchase.

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JPeterson
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Loc: Wisconsin USA
Re: Rigby quality [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44281 - 18/12/05 12:34 AM

Sorry 500NITRO, I didn't mean to upset you so badly

The intention of my post was not to promote Rigby, but to better understand the reasons for disdain of the new rifles. Is it the fact that they're American made or is it truly quality issues?

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500Nitro
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: 500grains]
      #44292 - 18/12/05 04:25 AM

500 grains.
All of the examples provided say nothing about the old Rigby and a lot about how people care for guns and / or how much they have been used.

- out of regulation (badly) Can be through wear of barrels or damage - ie gun got wet, rust between the barrels.
- cracked stocks (sidelocks) - User caused.
one ejector working, one not - Not Rigby's fault after 100 years and in any case, show me any gun used for 100 years that doesn't or shouldn't have had some servicing. They were designed to be serviced
- trigger guard falling off - can't blame Rigby's for this.Stock could have got wet and becme wrotten, gun could have got wet ?
- misfiring - Not Rigby's fault after 100 years and in any case, show me any gun used for 100 years that doesn't or shouldn't have had some servicing.
Interestingly, none were off face - not all Rigby's were Rigby's, a lot were Webley's so probably says more about the Webley Screw Grip / PHV1 Action than Rigby.

I'll play the Devils advocate here - and I would like anyone to respond to this.

Take a current Searcy, put it through what alot of British Doubles went throgh from 1900 - 1945 both in shooting and how they were cared for by Servants, the lack of service available and you will tell me that a Searcy would be any different ? (I used Searcy as an Example - you can substitute any other modern brand DR you like.)

"Maybe Rigby designed a good action, but I have seen some that did NOT stand the test of time. So I am not convinced that an old Rigby is any better than a new Rigby. In fact, based on the rifles I have seen, a vintage Rigby would be a very high risk purchase."

I'm sorry 500 grains but I think you have a bias for some
reason against old reason that isn't supported in fact.

If you disagree with what I have said, please say so as I would be interested to hear why.

Just my HO !

500 Nitro

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500Nitro
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: JPeterson]
      #44293 - 18/12/05 04:33 AM


JPeterson

Sorry, my reply was a bit strong but you didn't upset me.

Is it the fact that they're American made or is it truly quality issues?

Personally, what got me was they were promoting a DR (and Bolt guns and SHotguns) using a name where the quality of what was shown was not up to scratch - I bought a Merkel about the same time as they took over and I think my gun had better finish (wood to metal) than what was shown n the photos. I think they rushed it.

As to American made - I don't have a problem with US made anything - in fact in my business I buy (and prefer to buy) US made rather than Asia made and do so every month.

I do however not agree with the "if it's not mde in the US it's no good" syndrome.

500 Nitro

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JPeterson
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Reged: 08/10/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Wisconsin USA
Re: Rigby quality [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44298 - 18/12/05 05:48 AM

500NITRO, I agree completely. I don't believe there is any American craftsman that can compare with a English or Italian DR

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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: JPeterson]
      #44299 - 18/12/05 05:55 AM

JPeterson:

It's really a question of intrinsic value. A Merkel is built, of course, on a Merkel action with chopper lump barrels (the most expensive way, and the most desireable), and is well finished. The current Rigby is built on a Merkel action with mono-bloc barrels (although functionally not inferior, the cheapest way and less desireable) and isn't finished as well as the Merkel. The Merkel is the better gun and costs less than half as much. This is why the current incarnation of Rigby hasn't done well and probably won't be around much longer.


Grains & Nitro:

I don't know where the pre-WWI Rising Bite SLE actions came from. Possible Rigby may have made them themselves. The post WWI SLEs were Webley & Rogers Screw Grip models from Webley & Scott. The Webley Screw Grip was a much more positive top fastener system than the Bissell ever was.

There are a lot of abused guns out there that have ended up in such condition, or worse. The Bissell's have had 90+ years to suffer every indignity in the book. Some have been well cared for, and some haven't. It isn't fair to judge them by their walking wounded.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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JPeterson
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Reged: 08/10/05
Posts: 68
Loc: Wisconsin USA
Re: Rigby quality [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #44300 - 18/12/05 06:04 AM

Interesting, I didn't realize that Rigby used mono-bloc barrels. I learn something new everyday on this site

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500grains
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Loc: Salt Lake City, Utah USA
Re: Rigby quality [Re: JPeterson]
      #44309 - 18/12/05 08:08 AM

500nitro,

I understand your post to say that after 100 years I should expect a double to be totally buggered, whether it was made in the year 1900 or 2000. The fact remains that the specimens I have seen would not cause me to have faith in a vintage Rigby. Other brands are a different story, however.

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Rigby quality [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #44310 - 18/12/05 08:12 AM


JPeterson and 400

I didn't reaslise that "Rigby" used Mono Bloc barrels.

Well that makes it even worse IMHO - charging a higher price
for a lesser gun.

Jpeterson - Searcy may get there eventually - as some of the US bolt action custom rifle makers have done - and it will be good if he does.

After all, some of the DR's and particularly Shotguns coming out of Italy now are up there with the best British gun trade can put out.

500 Nitro

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500Nitro
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: 500grains]
      #44311 - 18/12/05 08:16 AM

500grains,

Yes, I know what you mean.

I have seen guns of many makes stuffed, sHot out, buggered loose DR's etc incuding Holland Royals, Jeffrey's, Manton's, Lyon and Lyon's etc.

I just don't buy them and wait for something else.

500 Nitro

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bulldog563
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Reged: 21/10/05
Posts: 1153
Loc: California
Re: Rigby quality [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44313 - 18/12/05 09:52 AM

Are chopper lump barrels more desirable because they are more traditional or is there another reason?

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new_guy
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #44320 - 18/12/05 10:48 AM

In reply to:

Poster: 400NitroExpress
Subject: Re: Rigby quality

JPeterson:

A Merkel is built, of course, on a Merkel action with chopper lump barrels



You know I keep hearing that Merkels have chopper-lump AKA demi-bloc barrels, but i've recently inspected a set of lumps on a Merkel 470 and couldn't find the tell-tale-seam of chopper lump barrels.

Anyone have a picture that will prove it to me?

--------------------
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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: new_guy]
      #44327 - 18/12/05 11:20 AM

new guy:

I have a chopper lump Wm. Evans with an invisible seam as well. Takes a lot of magnification and bright light to see it.


Bulldog:

Because the lumps are integral to the tubes of chopper lump barrels, they're theoretically stronger than dovetail lump and shoe-lump barrels, and they're certainly the most expensive. With respect to the lumps, mono-bloc barrels aren't necessarily weaker, as the lumps are integral to the bloc. They're just a cheaper method of barrel-making. Unless they're seamlessly sleeved, they're also very often unsightly due to the joint, and the fact that the barrels often don't take blacking the same as the bloc.
------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500Nitro
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Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Rigby quality [Re: new_guy]
      #44346 - 18/12/05 04:05 PM


I'll check my 470 but I am sure it has
Chopper Lump barrels.

500 Nitro

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iwantadouble
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Reged: 06/06/05
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Loc: Gallatin County, Montana
Re: Rigby quality [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44424 - 20/12/05 09:11 AM

I have no experience to base "Rigby, America" quality on, so I won't even begin to touch that one, but in regard to pre-war (actually pre-WW1) quality Rigby, the one rifle (magazine) I have seen and held in person was mastery, in my opinion. I have never shouldered a more lively bolt action rifle, the wood was nice with out being overextravagant (I am more of a fan of field or working grade firearms than best anyway, so that doesn't bother me.) The bluing was beautiful, and the rifle fit like a dream to the shoulder. Caliber was/is .350 Rigby Magnum. I have seen some rifles marked by Holland that I would pass up in an instant for if offered a shot at.

When somebody builds thousands upon thousands of rifles in their long history, its possible for them to make a few bad ones, or on the same token (which I personally don't think is the case of the real Rigby's) make a few good ones. Given that these rifles were hand finished over a long period of time, and that some wore the test of time by the hands of owners better than others, I feel each must be evaluated on a case by case level because none of us would have had the chance to examine the entire stock as it was going out the door.

As a side note I know of one gunsmith that took the very rifle I was so impressed with and made note of measurements off all that it had to offer to build a clone for himself.

--------------------
500 is a nice round number, either followed by "Nitro Express" or by "cubic inch displacement".

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JoeR
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: iwantadouble]
      #44490 - 21/12/05 07:58 AM

I have no experience with American Rigby rifles except that they also have all the original records from Rigby and when I called them to get some info on a magazine Rigby I have in 350, they were less than helpful to say the least. Paul Roberts did keep COPIES of all the Rigby records, and even though he has now moved on to Jeffreys, he was more than happy to personally look up my rifle for me and spent a long time talking with me. I also agree that vintage Rigby magazine rifles are the quintessential Express rifle in design and execution and, in comparison, Hollands bolts and Westley Richards are not quite as nicely done nor quite as elegant. I also had a Rigby in 416 from the Robert's Rigby era (built in 1988) that was a superb rifle in all respects, built on a BRNO 602 action.

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500Nitro
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: JoeR]
      #44491 - 21/12/05 08:26 AM


I agree that Rigby Rifles are good and in some cases
exceptional, however I would have to say that I have
owned and seen some very ordinary ones as well.

These were primarily a the lower end of the quality scale
of the Rigby's.

I would also say that Holland and Westley bui;t some
superb Bolt Action rifles - very well finished and balanced,
beautifully stocked and in alot of cases better than Rigby's.

I currently own 3 x 318 Westley's, all of which are great
and a Holland 7 x 57 which everyone who sees it says
is excellent.

Just my HO and experience.

500 Nitro

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JoeR
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: 500Nitro]
      #44498 - 21/12/05 10:51 AM

500NITRO, I agree Westleys and Holland built some exquisite magazine rifles. Unlike with their DR's, I did not know that Rigby built a lesser quality line of rifles in magazine form. Some commercial Mauser sporters were marked Rigby as they were the Mauser importer for a while, but, Rigby made bolt rifles that I have seen have been very uniformly similar rifles without the variations in wood quality and engraving extras that are more often seen in Hollands and Wesley-Richards. The Rigbys look rather plain in comparison. Paul Roberts era Rigbys on the other hand had a tremendous range in terms of "Best Grade" style to plain guns.

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Peterb
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Re: Rigby quality [Re: JoeR]
      #44507 - 21/12/05 11:57 AM

I have not seen a new Rigby up close so cannot comment on its quality. However, since the action is a 20 Ga Merkel (like Merkel double rifles), I find it hard to put more value on it than a Merkel unless the engraving was unusually fine. The new Rigbys I have seen in magazines have engraving quality that is closer to cartoon animal quality. This seems to be quite common today. My own personal opinion is that a $10,000 or $20,000 gun should have engraving of a quality commensurate to the gun's value. As a result, I cannot see why the Rigby should be any more in price than a Merkel. Since I have not seen a new Rigby, I am open to comments why my logic above may be flawed.

I also do not understand why the Merkel prices vary so greatly for the same new gun. The differences are staggering.

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