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raccoon29
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Reged: 08/11/05
Posts: 4
Screw grip and PHV1
      #41094 - 09/11/05 04:12 PM

Correct me if i'm wrong here as i have not suprisingly never heard of these actions before. But the screw grip and PHV1 are where the top lever has an extesion that goes into a greener crossbolt or dolls head and cams the barrels down, right? And for these actions when you close the barrels you have to turn the top lever not as where in most doubles where when you close the barrels the lever goes to the locked position?

PS: I searched the forums and when the following actions were defined they weren't clear to me.

Edited by raccoon29 (09/11/05 04:13 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: raccoon29]
      #41095 - 09/11/05 04:50 PM


raccoon29

You probably would have seen Screw grip and PHV1 actions
- they are (were) made by Webley - Screw Grip has a Spade
shaped Dolls head that intersects with the Toplever Spindle
and the PHV1 has a Club (as in Ace of Clubs) shaped Dolls
head that DOES NOT intersect with the Toplever Spindle.

They are often referred to as Treble Grip and both are Webley's
although if they have another name on them (ie Rigby etc) then
Webley dosn't normally get mentioned.

Re "has an extesion that goes into a greener crossbolt "
NO, if it has a Greener Crossbolt they are not Screw grip and PHV1 actions
even though they may look like them.

Re "dolls head and cams the barrels down, right? "
Spot on - good description and this is why the Screw grip and PHV1 actions
generally do not come loose.

Re "And for these actions when you close the barrels you have to turn the
top lever not as where in most doubles where when you close the barrels
the lever goes to the locked position?"

Not sure what you mean here - can you explain further. IMHO, they work
just like other Toplever Hammerless actions unless I misunderstand you.

I'll see if I can get NitroX to post a photo as I wrote an article on these
2 actions and have a close up photo of 2 of my 500 NItro doubles which
clearly show the 2 shapes

Hope this helps. Ask away if you have any questions.


500 Nitro

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mickey
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #41097 - 09/11/05 05:28 PM

500Nitro

Good explanation. I am looking forward to the article.

I think Raccoon is asking if you have to manually push the top lever over instead of it spring over on closure.

The Answer is no.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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500Nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: mickey]
      #41098 - 09/11/05 06:01 PM

Mickey

Would you believe it I actually accidently.deleted the article
a couple of years ago - oh well.

I still have the photos so will try to get these posted.

Haven't you and I answered this question are few years
ago where I posted the photos before ???

500 Nitro

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500Nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #41101 - 09/11/05 08:32 PM


The 2 photos which will be posted by Marrakai later this evening
(below this post) are described below.
Both are 500 x 3" Nitro Express DR's.

The LEFT gun is a (Joseph Lang) Webley Screw Grip
you can see the Spade shaped Dolls head that intersects
with the Toplever Spindle

The RIGHT gun is a (Army & Navy) PHV1 actions
you can see the Club (as in Ace of Clubs) shaped Dolls
head that DOES NOT intersect with the Toplever Spindle

You can see how "the dolls head cams the barrels down "
by the shape it. It almost "pulls" the barrels tighter as the
Toplever closes and hence why the Screw grip and PHV1 actions
generally do not come loose.

Quite a few other actions look very similar to a Webley PHV1
action but are not.

You can also generally tell a Webley from a distance by te shape of
the fences.

Also, you can just see on the Joseph Lang stock behind the action
an engraved piece of metal which - this is an insert covering a
cross bolt through the stock.
Some Webley's (and others) came with this, some didn't but
I have heard the unititiated say it is a repair - not necessarily so.

Hope this is clear.


500 Nitro

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Marrakai
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #41103 - 09/11/05 09:41 PM

Here you go, chaps!





--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: raccoon29]
      #41106 - 10/11/05 01:01 AM

Philip Webley & Son (Webley & Scott after 1897) invented and built several patterns of double gun "screw grip" actions, both boxlock and sidelock. The two you mentioned were boxlocks primarily used as dedicated double rifle actions. The correct name for the action with the spade shaped rib extension in the photo above is the A. & W. C. "A" for the Anson & Deeley boxlock patent of 1875 and "W" for the Webley and Brain screw grip top fastener patent of 1882. The "C" is said to be for Cordite and is used to differentiate it from the A & W shotgun. The PHV-1 is substantially similar and was, with respect to Webley retailed guns, intended as a plainer grade model, but some of those built for the trade ended up anything but plain. There is very little difference between the two and both are techically screw-grips.

Webley retailed some of these themselves, but most were made "for the trade" (built for other gunmakers who retailed them). While Webley did sell these to the trade as actions only, most were more complete than that when they left the factory. Webley assigned and stamped serial numbers to these only if they barreled them, the numbers being stamped on the short-rib (early) or the left side of the fore-end loop (later, this began with no. 13000 which, as nearly as I can tell, was around 1909). If you think you recognize the action, remove the fore-end and look for the number.

In my database, I have boxlock double rifles built on these two actions, with Webley serial numbers on them (which means that they left Webley, at a minimum, as proven barreled actions "in the white"), from Wm Evans, Rigby, Holland & Holland, Army & Navy, Charles Lancaster, George Gibbs, Joseph Lang, Churchill, London Sporting Park, Manton etc. (by no means an exhaustive list). They're fairly ubiquitous. Some retailers "bought in" these "in the white" and stocked/finished them themselves (I recently researched a Lang that was) but most were probably bought in complete.

The screw grip top fastener is what makes these special. I have a strong preference for a rib extension on double rifles, but don't like third fasteners unless they're screw grips.

Some "screw grips" are inert, meaning that the lever must be manually closed, such as the Jones patent underlever action (although Purdey built some of these as snap actions) and the Wilkinson Sword Co patent screw grip fore-end fastener (which is the one used on most of the Webley screw grip double rifles). However, both of these actions are snap actions, meaning that a spring rotates the top lever closed when the gun is closed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500Nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #41111 - 10/11/05 03:58 AM


400NitroExpress

Excellent post.

Screw grip is a lot asier to say than A. & W. C
isn't it ?

Like you, I have a list of guns in the safe that have names like
yours. That's why I don't get hung up so much on names,
as long as it is a Webley

What do you mean by "Rib Extension" as per your quote below -
are you referring to the Dolls Heads extension ?
"I have a strong preference for a rib extension on double rifles, but don't like
third fasteners unless they're screw grips."

500 Nitro

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #41119 - 10/11/05 05:09 AM

500 Nitro:

No, A. & W. C. doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, does it? Not much better on a keyboard.

Its long been obvious to me that our tastes in double rifles substantially coincide. Yep, buy the face, not the name. Once you've learned to recognize the Webley's and the Leonard's, that cuts a wide enough swath. All that's left is determining fit, function, and condition. The name ca-ca gets silly. Saw a nice Holland .470 recently. PHV-1. Identical rifle to an Army and Navy that a buddy has. No difference at all in the level of finish (damned plain, but good). Although I can't be certain, I'm pretty sure that rifle was nothing more than sort of an unmarked "shot & regulated". I doubt Holland did anything more than cut the stock to the customer's dims and maybe tweak the regulation. You'll pay a lot extra to get the name though.

Yes, I prefer a doll's head extension, but a straight extension is OK, as long as there is some kind of rib extension to keep the barrels square to the face. Maybe just luck of the draw, but I've periodically seen DRs with most of the other top fastener types (cross bolt, hidden Holland type, etc.) that were off face, but not Webley screw grips.
-------------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500Nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #41120 - 10/11/05 05:35 AM


400NitroExpress

Yep, I think we have very similar tastes - Leonard is the other one you
correctly pointed out.

On thing would say - as much as I get on well with Americans
and do alot of business with US companies, it amazed me how long
it took for people in the US who were interested in English guns
to move away from buying "names". I think books like the Dallas
"Holland book" where he states all guns made prior to 1892 were
made by Scott (or one of the configurations of the brothers
W, C Scott etc etc).

Re "DRs with most of the other top fastener types (cross bolt, hidden Holland type, etc.)
that were off face, but not Webley screw grips."

Some of it has to do with the Cartridge as well - I think Hollands are good
but people always seem to want to overload doubles and make them HV Tacholers
with pressure levels like the WSM and WSSM cartridges. I prefer to stay with
the heavy bullet, lower velocity - just look at NitroX's post on the Cull - his 9.3 x 74R
was doing 2170 or something like that.

The Holland .470 recently. PHV-1 you say would be identical to the Army & Navy
on the right of the pictures above. I do think that the FIT and FINISH or a true Holland
Sidelock is better than other guns - in general.

In regards to names, I liked a description a friend in the US
gave me of Rigby's guns and how to view them.

Rigby Pre 1920ish - Rigby Bissell Rising Third bite
Rigby Post1920ish - Webley Screw Grips and PHV1's

Paul Roberts Rigby's - again split into Early and Late ones
(we think quality drpped off the lnger he had the name)

Mexican Rigby's - the name used after the US person purchased
the name.

Anyway, will have to compare photos sometime.


500 Nitro

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4seventy
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #49147 - 04/02/06 01:04 PM

500,
Do you still have those two Webleys?
If so it would be good to show a photo of the action face of each rifle with barrels removed, focused into the third bite recess, to highlite the differences in the two systems.
The screw grip action indeed has a true screw grip fastener but the PHV1 does not.
The PHV1 system pushes a wedge between the top of the action frame and the lower surface of the bite on the rib extension so in reality it is no more of a screw grip than is a Holland concealed third bite.
Of course the Holland concealed bite does not have a dolls head where the Webleys do but we are dealing with the bite system here.
The vastly different position of the top lever spindle in the two types gives the game away.
For the PHV1 to be a true screw grip it would need to have its top lever spindle right up on the third bite recess just like the A&WC action.

I'm not suggesting that the PHV1 is inferior to the screw grip in any way, just suggesting that the two systems are very different in the way they achieve the down force on the rib extension bite.
I'd be the last to ever say anything bad about a PHV1.
I shot the hell out of one some time back, which was pretty well used when I got it, and a lot more used when I sold it.
Last I heard it was still going strong and I believe the same gun may have been taken to the big US shoot by one member of the Aussie team a few years back.
(Lang 360 No2. PHV1 extractor)

Edited by 4seventy (04/02/06 01:22 PM)

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500Nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 4seventy]
      #49178 - 04/02/06 11:10 PM


I just sold one but I have the photos which Mickey posted for me.

Will try to do it before I leave.

500 Nitro

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #61409 - 19/08/06 06:48 AM

BTT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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500Nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #61412 - 19/08/06 08:05 AM


400

Thanks for that

500 Nitro

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bwana600nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #61444 - 20/08/06 04:05 AM

Great topic guys I have learned tons. I had 2 questions. I have never seen a hammerless Jones Underlever (not snap action) did they make any (any maker)? Also I noticed in a earlier post is the lever on the forend of some doubles called a "screw down lever" or such? What is the proper term for this?

Thanks
bwana600nitro

--------------------
"The big ones look big" Jack O'Conner

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Raff
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: bwana600nitro]
      #61447 - 20/08/06 04:34 AM


Bwana;
Check out www.safarioutfittersltd.com double rifle page.
They have a Alex. Henry BPE hammerless Jones lever dbl.
Occasionally you see one for sale, but not often. Very
few were made, it seems.
Raff

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: bwana600nitro]
      #61448 - 20/08/06 05:05 AM

Hammerless Jones underlever DRs are fairly common. Purdey built hammerless Jones underlever DRs as snap actions at least as late as WWI. Blixen used one in .500/.465 for a time.

In double gun nomenclature, a "screw grip" is a fastener that operates on the interrupted thread principle and is activated by a lever. Sorta like a bayonet mount camera lens, a partial turn of the lever fastens, and a partial turn in the opposite direction unfastens - hence the term "screw grip". It was commonly used as a primary bolting system, a fore-end attachment system, and a third fastener system. The Jones UL Screw Grip Action patent of 1859 uses a screw grip to engage the underlugs. The fore-end fastener you referred to is the Screw Grip Fore-end Fastener. This type was patented by a workman of Wilkinson's (I seem to remember his name as Harvey) in 1866 and was, thus, the property of Wilkinson Sword Co. The T. W. Webley & T. Brain Screw Grip Top Fastener Patent of 1882 is a third fastener on a dolls head extension, and was obviously a direct crib on the Wilkinson patent.

Most of the Webley built screw grip double rifles also use the screw grip fore-end fastener.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: bwana600nitro]
      #61449 - 20/08/06 05:13 AM

Here's a photo of a hammerless Purdey double rifle with the Jones system, now for sale on the Martini & Hagn website:




Nice rifle, eh? It's a .400/.360 NE.

Curl



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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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bwana600nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: CptCurl]
      #61458 - 20/08/06 12:39 PM

Very nice too bad we dont see this action in modern doubles.

Bwana600

--------------------
"The big ones look big" Jack O'Conner

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500Nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: bwana600nitro]
      #61459 - 20/08/06 12:56 PM

bwana600nitro

It is a nice action to look at but IMHO it is a bit of a prick to use.

I used to have an identical gun to the one above but in 450/400 and it proved in my mind that I preferred Top Lever Hammerles guns.

And I wouldn't like to use one extensively in the field.

Just my HO but I would still buy one if it came along just to have another.

500 Nitro

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #61466 - 20/08/06 09:30 PM

500,

You can buy this one.

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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500Nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: CptCurl]
      #61469 - 20/08/06 10:33 PM


CptCurl,

Already got a 400/360 in a WR as per the photos in the reference section of the forum. Thanks anyway.

However if you would like to buy it as an early Christmas present
I would gladly accept.

500 Nitro

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #61474 - 20/08/06 11:49 PM

Not a bad idea 500N. I'll send you my wish list so you have plenty of time for your shopping!

Curl



--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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500Nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: CptCurl]
      #61475 - 20/08/06 11:59 PM


CptCurl

No need to send a list, I already know which guns of mine you want - you kind of expressed it when I was in the US.

Just like I did about one of yours !!!!

Remember ? - especially which one I want of yours ?

500 Nitro

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Chasseur
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 500Nitro]
      #61483 - 21/08/06 04:30 AM

Now hold on gents! There will be no gun swapping until Curly gives back my Purdey 500BPE...

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



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500Nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: Chasseur]
      #61489 - 21/08/06 06:50 AM

Chasseur,

Ah, so we have other fingers in the pie.

At least that's not one of the guns I want - although it is very nice indeed.

Chasseur - Curl's going to think we are trying to move him on a bit quicker !!!

500 Nitro

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500grains
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: CptCurl]
      #61491 - 21/08/06 07:32 AM

Does any company make rifles based on the screw grip action today?

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 500grains]
      #61494 - 21/08/06 08:26 AM

Yes, A & S Famars offers the doll's head extension with screw grip third fastener as an option. It's expensive. Late English Rigby boxlock DRs were screw grips as well as the current W. J. Jeffery boxlocks that Paul Roberts (who formerly owned Rigby) is building now. In both cases the actions are from A & S. Others may be building screw grips, as A & S sells a number of actions to the trade annually.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

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bulldog563
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #61540 - 22/08/06 08:27 AM

How does the Webley Long Bar fit into all of this?

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500grains
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #61541 - 22/08/06 09:19 AM

What would an A&S screw grip action rifle, plain Jane, in .470 NE cost? Any guess?

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bwana600nitro
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 500grains]
      #61543 - 22/08/06 10:25 AM

there plain jane African Express was about 28,000- to 30,000 last time I checked.

bwana600nitro

--------------------
"The big ones look big" Jack O'Conner

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 500grains]
      #61546 - 22/08/06 10:44 AM

The last time I looked at a price list, base price was $34,000.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

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bulldog563
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #66474 - 07/12/06 01:53 AM

Quote:


In double gun nomenclature, a "screw grip" is a fastener that operates on the interrupted thread principle and is activated by a lever. Sorta like a bayonet mount camera lens, a partial turn of the lever fastens, and a partial turn in the opposite direction unfastens - hence the term "screw grip". It was commonly used as a primary bolting system, a fore-end attachment system, and a third fastener system. The Jones UL Screw Grip Action patent of 1859 uses a screw grip to engage the underlugs. The fore-end fastener you referred to is the Screw Grip Fore-end Fastener. This type was patented by a workman of Wilkinson's (I seem to remember his name as Harvey) in 1866 and was, thus, the property of Wilkinson Sword Co. The T. W. Webley & T. Brain Screw Grip Top Fastener Patent of 1882 is a third fastener on a dolls head extension, and was obviously a direct crib on the Wilkinson patent.

Most of the Webley built screw grip double rifles also use the screw grip fore-end fastener.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



Was reading this older thread and was curious what the screw grip fore end fastener looked like. Pictures would be great but a description would be fine as well.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: bulldog563]
      #66481 - 07/12/06 02:48 AM



Here's a pic of a screw grip forend fastener on a Webley PHV-1.



Here's one on a Thomas Horsley.



And here's one on a Woodward.



Don't seem to have a photo handy showing the latch in its open position.

Curl

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4seventy
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #66507 - 07/12/06 12:30 PM

Quote:

In double gun nomenclature, a "screw grip" is a fastener that operates on the interrupted thread principle and is activated by a lever. Sorta like a bayonet mount camera lens, a partial turn of the lever fastens, and a partial turn in the opposite direction unfastens



Actually, a bayonet camera lens mount is not in any way like a screw grip fastener.
A bayonet lens mount does not use an interrupted thread system for its attachment to the camera body.
A bayonet mount and an interrupted thread are completely different systems.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 4seventy]
      #66523 - 07/12/06 04:03 PM

Well Alan, I already knew that you didn't know what the term screw-grip means. Seems you don't know much about SLR cameras either.

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4seventy
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #66526 - 07/12/06 05:52 PM

400,

Take a real good look at the lugs on your SLR bayonet lens mounts and then come back and let me know what you find.

Perhaps a little help is needed so you know what to look for.
To convince me that the bayonet lens system is actually an interrupted thread you'll need to find an inclined plane on the engaging surfaces of the lugs.
Nikon and Pentax SLR bayonet mounts I own/have owned, have the engaging surfaces square to the lens axis, meaning that there is NO inclined plane and therefore no thread system used.

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400NitroExpress
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 4seventy]
      #66529 - 07/12/06 06:49 PM

I don't need to convince you of anything, Alan.

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4seventy
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #66530 - 07/12/06 07:13 PM

Thats ok


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: 4seventy]
      #66572 - 08/12/06 10:17 AM

I don't mean to butt in here, but it seems to me that Alan's point is that the bayonet camera mount isn't a screw. It does consist of interrupted lugs, but the lugs aren't the remnants of threads of a screw.

I'm no engineer, but a screw is an inclined plane wrapped around a cylinder, and it tightens (or loosens) the parts as it turns. The Webley screw grip (A&W C) clearly performs this function. You can see the screw clearly from the front of the breech, looking into the recess for the doll's head rib extension. I don't think the bayonet mount of a camera lens does anything of the sort.

What about it, guys? Is this the distinction?

Best,
Curl

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RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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4seventy
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: CptCurl]
      #66575 - 08/12/06 11:33 AM

Curl,
Yes, that was my point exactly.
At first glance the bayonet mount looks similar to an iterrupted thread but close examination will indeed show otherwise.
The interrupted thread system is well suited to joining two surfaces which will be required to endure high loading forces.
Some take down bolt action rifles use the interrupted thread system to secure the barrel to the receiver and yes indeed, the A&WC Webley double rifle action uses an interrupted thread as part of its its third bite system.
A bayonet mount system would not be suitable for either of those tasks.

Both the interrupted thread system and the bayonet lens mount system draw two surfaces or flanges together as the lugs are fitted and rotated.
They both start off with a clearance (existing between the faces) which is taken up as the rotation is completed.
The BIG difference is that the interrupted thread system draws the two surfaces together by using the helix on the flank of the thread and achieves a solid lock up which has taken up all the clearance.

On the other hand the bayonet mount has no helix and relies on spring pressure to hold the two surfaces/flanges together.
The clearance has been taken up by spring pressure alone and any force applied to the parts involved which exceed this mild spring pressure will easily create movement at the clearance in the joint.

The bayonet lens mount on SLR cameras is not required to endure high loadings.
It is meant to provide fast changing of lens types with precision and ease.
This it does extremely well.

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BigFiveJack
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Reged: 25/12/05
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: Marrakai]
      #79421 - 26/05/07 03:45 PM

To Tony Marrakai or anyone else who can assist,

Please e-mail a pic to me, [advenjack@yahoo.com]

and post it here too, of a view straight at the

breach face of a PHV-1 with the bbls off. I'd like

to see this compared to what the threaded spindal
looks like in the A&WC Webley. Thank you

very much. I've been so busy at home and at work

for weeks on end now that I've have nearly zero forum

time, no fun at all!

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hoppdoc
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Re: Screw grip and PHV1 [Re: BigFiveJack]
      #79428 - 26/05/07 10:08 PM

Great thread!!

Can one assume that theoretically a dolls head screw grip 3rd fastener would be inherently stronger engagement while also assuring correct alignment or is it just different??

I am no engineer but it sounds like a better design--

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