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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1416
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
.242 Vickers Double Rifle
      #380747 - 30/11/23 03:34 AM

A "Vickers Limited" Double Rifle in .242 Express (.242 Manton, .242 Vickers)

As far as my searches have taken me, Vickers never even advertised double rifles in their catalogs or elsewhere. Their sporting rifles and shotguns were also but a very small part of their business.
Rarity? There seem to be very few known .242 Vickers rifles (all M98 Mauser) to begin with, and this is the only Vickers marked double rifle, much less in .242, that I have heard of.

This one is just now finally arriving thru import and I should have in my hands within the next couple weeks.
As can be seen, it looks to be a Webley long bar action, very nicely engraved. No other details as of yet. Almost certainly made and finished for Vickers by Webley.
Better and more extensive photos in due course.

I do have a Cogswell & Harrison marked M98 Bolt rifle in .242 Vickers so I hope to not have too much difficulty in getting this rifle shooting.

- Mike







--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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93x64mm
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Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 3988
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
      #380769 - 30/11/23 07:11 AM

Nice piece Mike!
Certainly looks in rather good order, as does the engraving - great deer rifle.
Is this a rimless round or the rimmed variant of it?

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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: 93x64mm]
      #380772 - 30/11/23 10:46 AM

Ripper piece there Mike, I am a big fan of small bore doubles, would love one in 256 Mannlicher myself.

What diameter bullet does the cartridge use.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #380773 - 30/11/23 11:12 AM

x64
I'm not aware of any rimmed variant of the .242 Vickers, It is a mystery until I get the rifle in my hands.

Matt
The .242 Vickers bullet diameter is an enigma. Various sources say .249" or .253". I measured an actual vintage Kynoch bullet and it was ~.247"
Now that said, my Cogswell & Harrison has a grove-groove of .255" with fairly deep rifling grooves. There is a fella in OZ with a .242 and his rifle also measures.255"in the grooves.
Apparently the standards of the day (between the wars) were no standards at all?

I size normal .25 cal (.257") cup and core 100 grain bullets to .254" with excellent result in the Cogswell & Harrison M98 Mauser

This one will get the bore(s) slugged first thing to see what I need to do.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39259
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
      #380801 - 30/11/23 06:42 PM

Mike, what sort of bullet weight, 100 grs?

And what sort of v elocity does the cartridge get with the usual weight bullet?

Looks like it will be a very nice, petite, light double rifle. Congratulations.

Any plans on what you will use it on?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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degoins
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Reged: 28/02/06
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Loc: SC, USA
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #380807 - 01/12/23 12:51 AM

Magnificent!!

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lancaster
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Reged: 06/05/08
Posts: 8752
Loc: There's a lighthouse in the mi...
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: degoins]
      #380852 - 02/12/23 07:08 AM

would be more useful with a scope but this will destroy the collector value!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1416
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #380860 - 02/12/23 12:14 PM

Lancaster,
So true; in my custodianship it will NEVER be butchered by a scope system. For all I know this may be the only Vickers double rifle in existence today, and even more rare in the .242 Express.
I collect & use these things for the love of what they were and not for what modern guys would wish them to be. (As well, I really do not like the types that snap these treasures up as “investments”, they were made to be enjoyed)

Nitro John,
Yes, original loads were 100 grain bullets at variously claimed 2800-3000 feet per second. My Cogswell & Harrison Mauser does nicely at ~2750’/sec. I shall see how this one shoots to get it to group together.
I suspect that with the powders available in the 1920’s and withrealistic barrel lengths that actual velocities were in the 2700’/sec range?
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
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Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
      #380866 - 02/12/23 05:39 PM

As you say it wouldn't be right to scope your vintage double rifle.

But such a double rifle in that chambering for use would benefit from a scope.

Have fun with it when it arrives.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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lancaster
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Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: NitroX]
      #380871 - 02/12/23 10:00 PM

its true, maybe one of a kind, if you need a scope there are enough double rifles in 7x65R around

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1416
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: lancaster]
      #382256 - 31/01/24 03:12 PM

Rifle is in hand and is quite nice.
Sharp rifling with mildly frosted grooves, looks highly likely restocked by Waghorn in Australia (beautiful job). Horn buttplate was worm eaten in spots but fixed up by my importer/smith Steve Bertram.
Ejector rifle, standard rimless .242 Vickers, tight as if new, and ejects empty formed cases with alacrity.

The dead of Winter here so no chance to shoot it yet.
I am able to recreate the unobtainable ammo as I also have the Cogswell & Harrison Mauser in .242 Vickers that I load for.
Now just a matter of getting a break in Winter to take it out to shoot.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
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Loc: usa
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
      #382261 - 01/02/24 02:31 PM

Beautiful little rifle and a nice find!

Have you posted photos of the Mauser previously - would love to see it as well.

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DarylS
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Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: mckinney]
      #382264 - 01/02/24 06:43 PM

Interesting, my post disappeared. Well done, Mike. Hope you have fun with her!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1124
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #382280 - 02/02/24 12:28 PM

Mike, that's a beautiful double you have been lucky enough to acquire in an interesting old cartridge that should be very useful for a good range of game today; pig, deer, etc.

My copy of COTW sits handy so I can pick up and read anytime I'm relaxing in my favourite chair. I recalled the old .242 cartridge being listed under the British cartridge section so checked again when your post came up just to see exactly what sort of ballistics the old girl produces.
COTW lists the cartridge as the .242 Rimless Nitro Express which was originally called the .242 Manton after the Calcutta based company of J. Manton & Co for whom the cartridge was developed by Kynoch in 1923.

I note you also refer to the cartridge as the .242 Vickers. Out of curiosity, where did the Vickers nomenclature come from?

Vickers did make up Mauser 98 rifles for various cartridges, the .242 Nitro Express/Manton being one and also the 404 Jeffery as another example, but the cartridges were not themselves given the Vickers nomenclature?

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3DogMike
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Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: eagle27]
      #382283 - 03/02/24 03:51 AM

Eagle,
An original box of Kynoch. You are correct about the moniker .242 Manton or .242 Rimless Nitro Express..
My Cogswell & Harrison Mauser is marked .242 Express.
However -
I suppose this comes as close to calling the cartridge a .242 Vickers as one can get?

Very much like calling the ".275 Rimless HV for Rigby Rifles" a .275 Rigby I guess?
Cheers, Mike

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
      #382288 - 03/02/24 07:33 AM

Ha ha good try. Actually some of the early American metallic cartridges had their names plagiarized by rifle manufacturers such as Remington, Marlin, Winchester etc, only because of specific loadings they produced for their particular rifles e.g. exactly same cartridge as originally named Winchester only called Marlin because of lighter or heavier bullet or loading used for the marlin rifle.
Cartridge nomenclature can be very messy.

I note you are sizing .257 calibre bullets to .254 for your Mauser .242. My brother used a 250-3000 for many years and found the Hornady 117gr round nose bullet the very best from cup and cores for game, such as feral goats, chamois and right on up to big red deer. The 117gr bettered the 100gr bullet by a good margin. Could be worth trying in your .242 Mauser and even your newly acquired double although regulation maybe a problem with the double which I imagine was done with 100gr bullets.

Will be interested to know how your double shoots so keep us informed.

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Hendo
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Reged: 23/05/18
Posts: 35
Loc: South Australia
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: eagle27]
      #382295 - 03/02/24 03:19 PM

I have a Vickers in .242 . In the 1938 Parker Hale catalogue, the rifle is called the Vickers .242 magazine express rifle. I will look at my 1924 and 1930 Vickers catalogues when I return home tomorrow. I recall that they simply call it the .242 express. given that the only manufacturer that used this calibre was Vickers, I'm pretty comfortable calling it the .242 Vickers.

Re the 117gn Hornady. a friend gave me a packet of these projectiles in a very old box and a packet of Winchester 117 in an even older box. I resized like Mike. (huge thanks to Mike for sourcing the resizing die for me) and both projectiles have the same point of aim. In my only range outing to date, they group around 3/4 inch at 50 metres. I'm back to the range with the Vickers in a coupe of weeks to sight in at 100m and then I have three days planned hunting Fallow Bucks so it will be interesting to see how the 117's perform.
My velocities to date are around 250 Savage velocities.
My Vickers had its receiver drilled and tapped and we found a Redfield Jnr to fit perfectly.
Its a beautifully made rifle in a calibre that almost guaranteed its failure. cheers hendo

--------------------
.

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: Hendo]
      #382313 - 04/02/24 10:02 AM

Sounds like you have a very nice old rifle there Hendo. Will be interesting to see how the heavy for calibre 117gr bullets go in your Vickers Mauser.

The original factory load ballistics for the 100gr bullet gave 3000fps, don't know barrel length used, but this is better than the 250 Savage which achieves around 2800fps with the 100gr bullet. The Savage only gets to 3000fps with the 85gr bullet. Should be able to get around 2700-2800fps with the 117gr bullets in the Mauser .242 which will drop animals nicely.
What do you use for cases for your .242, are they original cases or formed from something else?

You may have seen them before but FYI I have attached a scan of the ballistic tables for the "magnum small bore" cartridges from Taylor's book 'African Rifles and Cartridges'. Taylor acknowledges the tables were courtesy of Sir Gerald Burrard. Note the .242 is called the .242 Vickers in the tables, so you and 3DM are in good company calling your 'cartridges' .242 Vickers.



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Hendo
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Reged: 23/05/18
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Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: eagle27]
      #382341 - 05/02/24 02:44 PM

excellent table,
I am using 7x64 Brenneke cases trimmed 4mm and run thru thru my CH4D sizing die. Chambers perfectly.
I believe Mike uses 25-06 . either seem to work well.

--------------------
.

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: Hendo]
      #382347 - 05/02/24 05:47 PM

Glad the table was of use. Really keen to see how the resized 117gr bullets work out in your rifle and especially how Mike's double performs.

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: eagle27]
      #382415 - 09/02/24 09:57 AM

re: .242 Express claimed velocity of 3000'/sec.

The shown 3000'/sec is contradicted by other sources (that I cannot find at the moment), suffice to say that some sources put muzzle velocity at 2800'/sec.
Either way the test barrels were commonly 28" or 30" long.
- Speeds out of usual sporting riflel 24" barrels would be commensurately lower.
- My own Cogswell & Harrison Mauser .242 Express with 24" barrel will safely get 2750'/sec with IMR 4350 and 100 grain bullets. IMR 4350 is arguably very close to the Nobel No.1 or No.0 powders of the day that the cartridge was likely loaded with in the mid 1920's.

I highly suspect the 3000'/sec claim was nothing more than advertising hype.

Just my 2¢ worth.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: .242 Vickers Double Rifle [Re: 3DogMike]
      #382416 - 09/02/24 01:31 PM

I've used the same charge of both H4350 and Nobel No.O when loading for the 7mm-08. Results are identical, perhaps the Nobel powder having a slight edge on accuracy. On my comprehensive burn rate chart H4350 is the same as IMR4350.

Just for comparison the maximum loads with Nobel No.O and 100gr bullets listed in the 1975 Nobel Powder reloading book for the 243 Win and 244 Rem (similar case capacities as the .242 Express) are;

243 Win 42.0grs 3070fps
244 Rem 44.0grs 3080fps

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