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NitroXAdministrator
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Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ?
      #376778 - 17/05/23 08:06 PM



Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ?

As I've said elsewhere I regard ownership 9f fine old vintage firearms as being a custodian. Taking from previous owners. Passing onto the next.

Original gunmaker details, register page copies, daybook page copies, would be wonderful to have with the gun. Who the commissioning buyer was the first buyer was. A Maharajah? Military officer? Colonial Official? Ordinary but obviously keen hunter? Where they might have used it? Obviously if somewhat famous or otherwise recorded in history is a plus to know more. Some of course are lucky, having family members, ancestors owning the family heirlooms previously.

Original or period or recreation gun case plus accessories is a big plus. But I've known some gunshoos to separate the gun case from the gun to increase their bastardly profits. I'd like my Westley Richards and Jeffery doubles to have suitable leather and canvas covered guncases. The can be inscribed with my initials. Maybe a gold butt medallion (what are they called? Ecrustion? ) with initials or my Nitro Express "coat of arms" as well. A period reprinted gunmaker label inside the gun case.

A really nice idea is to secrete a scroll or history inside the gun somewhere. I found my Grandfather's gun licence rolled up inside a small cylindrical hole drilled in the butt under the buttplate.

Inside such today could be a small copy of gunmakers records. Page(s) about yourself, your exploits, previous owners. Not as cool but could contain immense records, a USB stick drive! Some future owner might have to search for antique computing devices to read it in a hundred years time!

Under the butt plate is the easiest place. Recoil pads make this harder. A neat hole could still be drilled through and a plug to close it maybe? Some other butt trap? But one doesn't want to spoil the looks and original styling. Under the pistol grip cap. But nothing to weaken the stocks.

Damaging original vintage firearms? Some have already been restocked, new recoil pads etc. They are using guns, not museum pieces. Nothing to destroy vintage status of course.


What do you think? Have family heirlooms already? Or are creating them? Whether to an actual relative or an unknown "heir".

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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degoins
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: NitroX]
      #376779 - 17/05/23 10:47 PM

I think we are of the same mindset. I recently acquired this old Rigby: https://www.gunsinternational.com/guns-f...un_id=102280015

It has a trapdoor grip cap and I opened it up to find some old deteriorated brown paper and a front sight with the bead broken off. It has a stock oval that reads 1 of 3 with the initials G.R.G underneath the initials is 1936. I emailed Rigby to get original info on the rifle and this is what they sent back:

Mauser Sporting Best, made for MRS L G CAINS. June 15th 1925. Weight 7 1/2lbs .30 Calibre 25 1/2. Barrel 14 5/8 inch stock. ivory bead trap in grip.
for 30 Calibre US cartridge

Everything lines up except that date and those initials on the stock oval.


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85lc
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: degoins]
      #376787 - 18/05/23 02:37 AM

Aftre years of owning various mostly vintage guns, I see myself as the custodian.

I now look at guns that have been abused and wonder why someone didn't just buy a modern gun they liked instead of cutting slots into the muzzle end of a DR to control recoil and to regulate the barrels; bobbing barrels, stripping actions from rifles, reloading BPE as if they were "magnums".

Of course, some butchering was done when the guns were considered as merely obsolute but the vintage double rifle that had its barrels ported was done in the past 15 years. The seller of the formerly very nice Army & Navy 360 BPE DR explained that he was getting ~ 2300 fps with 200 gr bullets and near the end, siad the action was peened - the hinge pin was peened to bring iyt back on face.

--------------------
RB


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degoins
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: 85lc]
      #376789 - 18/05/23 04:16 AM

"The seller of the formerly very nice Army & Navy 360 BPE DR explained that he was getting ~ 2300 fps with 200 gr bullets and near the end, siad the action was peened - the hinge pin was peened to bring iyt back on face."

He ought to have his head peened!!!


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3DogMike
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: degoins]
      #376817 - 19/05/23 02:32 AM

As to being the current custodian of a fine vintage gun or rifle I fully agree with the above sentiments.

It is my habit to treat them with as much or more care as the original owner. With enough time and considering the possible expense I do my best to, on occasion with special rifles that need attention, have an expert bring them back to a condition that will last another 150 years. Sympathetic restoration/clean up just as the English gunmakers did for their customers over the years.

Whomever was ignorant enough to beat up the A&N .360 certainly needs to be horsewhipped………or attached to the "Tucker Telephone" (and not just wired to the big toes)

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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mckinney
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #376873 - 22/05/23 12:42 AM

Agree on custodian v owner, but I doubt I’ll ever be able to resolve whether or not to restore certain rifles. I regret restoring a well used prewar .416 Rigby but feel OK about restoring a 9.3 Mauser Type B that was shot out. My current view is - if it functions and shoots well enough, leave it alone. Famous last words LOL.

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85lc
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: mckinney]
      #376876 - 22/05/23 02:15 AM

I think that it really boils down to whether someone's work degrades the gun. For me, it is fine to lap the bore or reregulate a rifle that doesn't shoot to point of aim. If the bore is completely shot out, perhaps the rifle could be rebored and rechambered to a cartridge that the rifle would have normally been chambered for.
I have seen some refinished guns that the owner would have been better not refinishing or have someone else do the work becauise the colors are garish (way to bright).
Lee Shaver (gunshith and publisher, SSE) said that he doesn't refinish guns to look like they just were produced but like they have some minor wear. I saw a gun he refinsihed and it looked very nice.

--------------------
RB


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: 85lc]
      #376877 - 22/05/23 02:28 AM

A lot of .360 NEs were rechambered to 9.3x74R.

What do you gentlemen feel about this?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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93x64mm
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: NitroX]
      #376881 - 22/05/23 08:55 AM

Having cancer has brought forward my thoughts on this matter.
Yes my 'collection' in nothing to speak of in any matter of speaking, but i have made it known in my will where certain firearms go & to whom they will go to & only to those deserving of them.
As to refinishing I am in agreeance with mckinney & 85lc, certain firearm should be restored, while others should be left as is or just spruced up a bit with a bit of TLC.
It takes a real artisan to redo a firearm to look good, yet show its age still without making it look brand new even though it it isn't!


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3DogMike
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: NitroX]
      #376882 - 22/05/23 08:56 AM

Quote:

A lot of .360 NEs were rechambered to 9.3x74R.
What do you gentlemen feel about this?




As I truly appreciate the originals in original condition it does pain me to know of this practice.

About 40 years ago I bought a Rigby boxlock DR that had been brought out of India by John Roberts & Son. Restored and rechambered by them to 9.3x74 it was a nice rifle. The fired brass did have a weird looking shoulder……
Would I like to see this mod done today? No, especially as I go to the effort to handload for all the obsolete cartidges in those rifles that I have.

Several thoughts come to mind here:
1) not every Brit rifle shooter is a handloader, thus those guys depend upon available factory or custom loaded ammo.
2) for decades the various .360 ammo was simply very scarce old ammo or completely unavailable.
3) sometimes not even brass suitable for conversion is available.

These days I personally dislike the conversion to 9.3x74 except when the bores on the original rifle are too far gone to be usable.
It IS possible to find components and dies for the .360’s these days, so why alter a fine original.
If one is not a handloader then they ought to learn……..
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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Marrakai
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #376890 - 22/05/23 02:26 PM

What 3DMike said, but for me its totally about being "pukka".

Rechambering a British .360 double rifle to shoot an exclusively European cartridge like the 9.3 is just not pukka.
A vintage Brit double so-rechambered would simply give me the sh!ts every time I took it out of the safe.

Similarly, a Krieghoff double in .360 No.2 would be anathema...

Just my 2 cents worth, can't help the way I'm wired.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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3DogMike
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #376895 - 23/05/23 12:09 AM

Quote:

What 3DMike said, but for me its totally about being "pukka".

Rechambering a British .360 double rifle to shoot an exclusively European cartridge like the 9.3 is just not pukka.
A vintage Brit double so-rechambered would simply give me the sh!ts every time I took it out of the safe.

Similarly, a Krieghoff double in .360 No.2 would be anathema...

Just my 2 cents worth, can't help the way I'm wired.




+1 to being "pukka", to me probably ultimately important, I should have thought to put that in my original post.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #376899 - 23/05/23 12:52 AM

Jolly good.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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sharps4590
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: NitroX]
      #376928 - 24/05/23 08:58 PM

Custodian, with exceptions and most of those have been mentioned. I relined a Jeffrey Rook rifle because it had already been re-chambered to 25-20 WCF and the bore looked like a sewer pipe. I have forever regretted opening up the chambers on a Meffert drilling that otherwise was quite nice.

Kinda like cars, I hate resto mods and those god-awful low profile tires and 19 inch wheels on a 50's or 60's era car or pick-up are the worst.

Nitrox, "escutcheon" is the word you're looking for.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


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HeymSR20
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: sharps4590]
      #376933 - 25/05/23 04:03 AM

I very much think we are custodians, but part of being the custodian is to use the guns for what they are intended and to add to their adventures. Part of this does mean ongoing care and maintenance, and keeping them usable. But there is a fine line between keeping usable and wrecking a perfectly good gun. I really don’t mind a well done stock extension, or a neatly added cheek piece to allow a scope to be used. If a stock is brocken I see no issue with a good repair. I would far rather this, than a complete restock.

But there does come a time when a gun, a car or a boat needs a complete rebuild. The ideal candidates are the old gun whose barrels are dangerously thin, pitted etc. A decent sleeving or indeed new barrels, potentially new wood and a freshen up of the action to a new state thats allows another 100 plus year is the right thing to do.

What is wrong is to take a perfectly functional gun in good solid working condition, pretty it up and then leave it to be a safe queen. At least as a wall hanger an old gun has some dignity.


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mckinney
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: NitroX]
      #376947 - 25/05/23 10:07 AM

I also don't like rechamberings whether it's a British double in .360 no. 2 (a fine enough cartridge by most accounts and a handsome one), a .350 Rigby converted to .375 H&H or a Webley .455 converted to .45 ACP (probably the worst sin of those mentioned). There's a guy in the US who wants to undo all the .455/.45 ACP conversions. I wish him luck!

I'll admit to having a well used Mauser Type A in 10.75x68 that was converted to .404 Jeffery before I bought it. I'd like to return it to 10.75x68.


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lancaster
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: mckinney]
      #376950 - 25/05/23 01:52 PM

rechambering is like destroying the gun, I hate!

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: NitroX]
      #377035 - 29/05/23 03:42 PM

Quote:



Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ?

As I've said elsewhere I regard ownership of fine old vintage firearms as being a custodian. Taking from previous owners. Passing onto the next.

...Some of course are lucky, having family members, ancestors owning the family heirlooms previously.

Original or period or recreation gun case plus accessories is a big plus.

...A really nice idea is to secrete a scroll or history inside the gun somewhere.

...Under the butt plate is the easiest place. Recoil pads make this harder. A neat hole could still be drilled through and a plug to close it maybe? Some other butt trap? But one doesn't want to spoil the looks and original styling. Under the pistol grip cap. But nothing to weaken the stocks.


...What do you think? Have family heirlooms already? Or are creating them? Whether to an actual relative or an unknown "heir".




You know that's how I feel about Grand Dad's M1910 Mannlicher Schoenauer Take Down Model with original fitted case.

I've long considered that I would only pass it to family members, but as my siblings are now taking me to court over 'sour grapes' as I was appointed trustee of the family estate I am now unsure. They're even upset that I purchased a family cemetery plot. They just want every dollar yet have spent thousands on a lawyer to attack me and want that expense charged to the trust. I'll have to see if any of their offspring develop better character.

I am, indeed, fortunate to have the MS' original fitted case. Label is, however, long gone and monogram (on case lid) is of original owner (G'pa got it second hand circa 1930 at Colombo, Ceylon).

I probably should write a history of the MS and its provenance, roll it up and put it in a DWM531 cartridge case (or two) which could reside in the original receptacles for two 'oh shit rounds' located beneath the trap door butt plate, unless I write really small and put it in the removable grip cap along with the original spare bead.





--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #377036 - 29/05/23 03:56 PM

Quote:


Whomever was ignorant enough to beat up the A&N .360 certainly needs to be horsewhipped………or attached to the "Tucker Telephone" (and not just wired to the big toes)

- Mike




Say... I've got some old 'wood wall' telephones and magneto boxes.

I've been cautioned that if connected to a home telephone jack and given a spin that they would blow out every phone on the line for miles.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: mckinney]
      #377037 - 29/05/23 03:57 PM

Quote:

Agree on custodian v owner, but I doubt I’ll ever be able to resolve whether or not to restore certain rifles. I regret restoring a well used prewar .416 Rigby but feel OK about restoring a 9.3 Mauser Type B that was shot out. My current view is - if it functions and shoots well enough, leave it alone. Famous last words LOL.




Likewise vintage automobiles.

--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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Rothhammer1
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Re: Custodian or Owner, vintage guns ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #377038 - 29/05/23 04:04 PM

Quote:



Just my 2 cents worth, can't help the way I'm wired.






--------------------
Citizen of the Cherokee Nation


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