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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: DoubleD]
      #377217 - 10/06/23 11:40 PM

Quote:

It would be interesting to see the various guns on this list and what the day book says about them.

The gun I have submitted is a Francotte Style Martini sporting rifle in 577 Snider. This is the same action used by Westley Richards for the 30,000 "Made especially for the ZAR" military rifles.

This is a full on sporting rifle by Jefferies, not a converted military rifle.






What loading do you use in your .577 Snider?

His does it compare to the .577 Snider Howday pistol load of a 480 gr lead bullet and 70 grs black powder?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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85lc
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: DoubleD]
      #378135 - 29/07/23 05:19 AM

All,

I received copies of the Jeffery workbook for each Jeffery gun that people provided serial numbers. I sent copies to all except Marrakai (please send me your email address).

The records are the daybook records which were hand written and somewhat hard to read. However, they are interesting to find out information about our guns.

One of the interesting thing to me is that, from the records that I saw, most of the Jeffery rifles were made by Turner and Leonard.

DoubleD, please recheck the serial number of your rifle. If I had the number wrong, please email me the correct number.

--------------------
RB

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: 85lc]
      #378146 - 29/07/23 07:03 PM

My email account needs some attention. It may need to be resent. I'll let you know.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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85lc
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: NitroX]
      #378161 - 30/07/23 04:44 AM

John,

That is too bad that you didn't receive my email forwarding information on your Jeffery. If you will email me at 1985fj@gmail.com, I will reply by forwarding the snapshot of the Jeffery workbook held by TFG.

The exercise has been very interesting for me. It appears that most of the Jeffery rifles were made by either Leonard or Turner (at least from the information that I saw).

I also learned tbat some Jeffery guns were chambered/bored for a special bullet clled a "lethal ball". Perhaps Laurence will be kind enough to write a post about his Jeffery and describe the "lethal ball".

Thanks to TFG for their help.

--------------------
RB

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ChrisCoade
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: 85lc]
      #378186 - 31/07/23 02:05 AM

W.J. Jeffery Serial Number 20176 (Morphy Auction website 2015) is a .450/.400 NE Double Rifle originally owned by Colonel Jim Corbett. Later owned by Elmer Keith and then sold at auction to a Private Buyer in 2015 for US$ 264k. The auction website dated this rifle circa 1909.
The Jeffery "Daybooks" show that SN 20176 was made for W.J. Jeffery by "Leonard" - being Daniel Leonard & Sons of Birmingham, England.
Jeffery "Daybook" entry: 400 (.450/.400) Bore - Double - Hammerless - A&D (Anson and Deeley action) - Ejector - 24" (inch) Guss-stahl (Krupps Essen Ingot Steel) barrels - Doll's Head - Standard & 4 Leaves to 500 yards - Ivory Bead Foresight - Rib Scroll Engraved - Anson forend - Pistol Grip - Eyes for Sling - 10 Lbs 2 Oz:
"Cost Price" was £24 (3 other .400 Doubles on the same Jeffery "Daybook" page at £18 & £18 & £20).
The "Selling Price" was £45.
"To Whom Sold" column: "This rifle belonged to Col Jim Corbett" (Ref G. Whittome).

"Turner" was the other main NE Double Rifle maker for W.J. Jeffery. Thomas Turner was an English gunmaker (born 1805 died 1890). He had a workshop at 8 Fisher Street, Birmingham, England from 1834 - the workshop had closed by 1912. He had 2 Sons - Thomas Turner Junior and James.

Chris Coade
Gloucestershire, England

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85lc
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: ChrisCoade]
      #378195 - 31/07/23 03:14 AM

Thanks, Chris,

I knew of Turner only as a premier maker of Whitworth target rifles. Apparently Turner (along with Leonard) were Jeffery's go to gun makers. I guess the English gun trade was composed of rilfe makers like Leonard and Turner and rifle sellers like Jeffery & others.

It was interesting that Jeffery 20176 sold for $264k. That is more than some people paid for their homes. I assume that at that cost, it is sitting in a gun safe. Well, at least whaen Keith owned it, it was a shooter.

--------------------
RB

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85lc
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: 85lc]
      #378220 - 01/08/23 12:52 AM

All,

If anyone that sent to me a serial number and information about their Jeffery firearm has not received a copy of the daybllk, please let me know.

I just got an email from Historic Bore advising he had not received an email from me. Well, unfortunately I never had information about his gun. Perhaps his emaiol may have gone into my spam folder and was lost.

So if you have a Jeffery gin and have not heard back from me, please let me know.

--------------------
RB

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HistoricBore
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: 85lc]
      #378360 - 05/08/23 02:28 AM

Hi RB and everyone

Just to say that a very clear photograph has just arrived with full details of my 'Farmer's Gun' Jeffery 12 bore hammer shotgun, which I now can see was made in June 1914, and so just before the Great War.

Its weight is given as 7 lbs, which it still is. The barrels are actually proofed as 13 bores, hence the extra weight over many game guns.

Thanks again to 85lc/ RB, 'Sharpshooter' and all the friendly people in Texas.

HB

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85lc
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: HistoricBore]
      #378396 - 06/08/23 02:42 AM

Everyone,

I have received and distributed all of the information I received from TFG for all of the Jeffery guns. (John, I just emailed your information.)

If anyone has not received information or has a new Jeffery, please let me know.

It was a fun exercise. The Jeffery firm sourced most of their rifles from either Turner or Leonard and their shotguns from J. Saunders. (I am not familar with J. Sanunders).

Thanks,

--------------------
RB

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3DogMike
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: 85lc]
      #378410 - 06/08/23 08:46 AM

Quote:

Everyone,
……...(snip)…...
The Jeffery firm sourced most of their rifles from either Turner or Leonard and their shotguns from J. Saunders. (I am not familar with J. Sanunders).
Thanks,



Just a note:
I have daybook copies from 1896 and all the Guns & Rifles noted in the 2400 series and 4700 series serial numbers were made by Ellis.
So it is not exactly correct that Turner or Leonard made "most" of the Jeffery Guns & Rifles (at least in the mid 1890's.
Certainly after about 1900 one sees Leonard as maker.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
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85lc
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: 3DogMike]
      #378419 - 06/08/23 01:05 PM

3DogMike,

That is good info. My comment was based upon what I saw which were stacked with Turner & Leonard. I guess that I we had all of the daybooks, we would have a more compete answer.

Thanks for the update.

--------------------
RB

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: 85lc]
      #378420 - 06/08/23 03:47 PM

Thanks for doing this Roy.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DoubleD
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: NitroX]
      #378443 - 06/08/23 11:20 PM

Thank you for doing this research for us Roy.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: DoubleD]
      #378444 - 06/08/23 11:56 PM

My rifles entry, and kindly translated by Marrakai for me.

.450 No.2 Top-lever A&D (Anson & Deeley) Hammerless Double Cordite Plain Doll's Head
24" Webley Nickel Steel, Standing and 4 leaves to 500 (yds), Ivory bead, Pistol Grip,
Bison engraving, Anson Pushrod 11 1/2 (?) lbs

Lawrence Luber ?

17 2 0
2 5 0
19 7 0

24 0 0

18/167 0



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DoubleD
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: NitroX]
      #378450 - 07/08/23 05:45 AM

Thank you for doing this research for us Roy.

Is there a correct location on these guns for this number?

Is there any why to get access to research this day book?

I would be looking for a Martini made on a Francotte pattern action in 577 Snider. (or any 577.)

We already know the number on this gun is for a Holloway Shotgun.


--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (07/08/23 05:48 AM)

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Marrakai
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: DoubleD]
      #378456 - 07/08/23 09:16 AM

Quote:

Lawrence Luber ?



Turner (tubes?)
Definitely Turner, but barrels already attributed to Webley...?
I guess some intrigue must remain!

The rest are pounds, shillings and pence.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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85lc
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: Marrakai]
      #378457 - 07/08/23 09:24 AM

Douglas,

The serial number on my two Jeffery dropbloacks is on the left side of the action. However, for Martinis, I don't know where Jeffery numbered the action.

The backstory is that DoubleD is trying to get a Martini by Jeffery and the owner gave him a number that isn't the Martini's serial number.

If someone has a Martini by Jeffery, please let DoubleD know where the serial number is located so he can coordiante with his friend who owns this rifle..

--------------------
RB

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DoubleD
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: 85lc]
      #378483 - 07/08/23 11:49 PM

I am hoping someday this rifle will transfer to me. The gun is still in South Africa. It is a full on sporting Martini with ovate barrel and the nicer quality of a Jeffrey's rifle. The current owner thinks it is 577 Snider. I suspect it is actually something longer. But I had no way when I was in SA to check. I shot it a number of times, It did not shoot very well.

This guns number is marked on the barrel.

Some where on an old back up hard drive I have pictures of this Jeffrey's Martini. Probably the one that I can no longer find the cable for.

The action of this Jeffrey's is a Francotte type Martini
identical to actions that Westley Richards used for the ZAR rifles. Of course the ZARS are military pattern not sporting. The ZAR's are marked on the bottom bottom left edge of action body adjacent to the front of the trigger guard.

I have to wonder? Could it be possible there are two Jeffrey books? One for made up guns from other makers and second for rifles that Jeffrey's made up them selves?

Just a wild desperate idea.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

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85lc
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: DoubleD]
      #378496 - 08/08/23 03:03 AM

DoubleD,

I believe the serial number will not be on the barrel but on the action. or at least, I have not seen a serial number only on a barrel.

Sometimes they are on the face or bottom of the action and other times they are on the lower tang.

"It did not shoot very well." Many vintage guns having been shot with black powder and corrosive primers have poor bores. Some can be cleaned up by lapping which is actually not hard, just time consuming.

--------------------
RB

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3DogMike
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: DoubleD]
      #378499 - 08/08/23 05:37 AM

Quote:

……(snip)…..
I have to wonder? Could it be possible there are two Jeffrey books? One for made up guns from other makers and second for rifles that Jeffrey's made up them selves?

Just a wild desperate idea.


Douglas,
Having pursued this angle a few years ago I came up with the answer that the only "known" surviving Jeffery records are in fact the daybooks that are now held by The Friedkin Group.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields

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DoubleD
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: 85lc]
      #378511 - 08/08/23 10:39 PM

Quote:

DoubleD,

I believe the serial number will not be on the barrel but on the action. or at least, I have not seen a serial number only on a barrel.

Sometimes they are on the face or bottom of the action and other times they are on the lower tang.




Could the number be hidden by the stock? Like on the face of the action such as the Martini-Henry?

Also since this is Francotte style Martini, could the number be on the trigger group?

Quote:


"It did not shoot very well." Many vintage guns having been shot with black powder and corrosive primers have poor bores. Some can be cleaned up by lapping which is actually not hard, just time consuming.



This has a lot more to do with my well documented disdain of the 577 Snider. (It's 24 gauge shotgun shooting a slug-my prejudice) None of my Sniders shoot very well.

But also this particular rifle had excessive drop in its breech block when opened, much more than needed to feed a Snider round and as often seen to feed a longer round in Martini's.

--------------------
DD, Ret.

Edited by DoubleD (08/08/23 10:43 PM)

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ChrisCoade
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: DoubleD]
      #378516 - 09/08/23 06:13 AM


Jeffery Serial Number 189XX is a .450/.400 dated 1909 and Made by (Thomas) Turner costing 16 Pounds - 12 shillings & Tubes costing 1 Pound - 8 shillings.

Chris Coade

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Lucky
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: ChrisCoade]
      #378520 - 09/08/23 02:14 PM

Dam I only just saw this thread , I have a Jeffery Farquharson in .303 , sure would of liked to get its build date etc.
Very hard to read the writing in the sales ledger

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85lc
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: Lucky]
      #378531 - 10/08/23 12:25 AM

Anyone who is Lucky should have an opportunity to check out their Jeffery. THe next time I send an inquiory to TFG, I will include your Jeffery.

BTW, the writing in the DayBook is informative but somewhat cryptic.

Now are there any other Jeffery gun owners that are interested in what the Jeffery DayBook has for their gun?

--------------------
RB

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Lucky
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Re: W.J. Jeffery's "daybooks" (workbooks) information [Re: 85lc]
      #378538 - 10/08/23 08:50 AM

Thank you Roy , would really appreciate that , I would load a photo of my Jefferey but for the life of me cannot figure out how to do it , I am not very tech savvy.

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