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CJF
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Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber
      #374531 - 27/02/23 03:31 AM

I recently purchased a double rifle retailed by Weisgerber in St Wendel via a Gunbroker auction. It arrived earlier this week.

Proofs on flats indicate bore of 0.340" or 0.350 since the gauge is 118.35. I hadn't used it prior to researching this rifle before bidding, but the formula for converting gauge to caliber is on Wikipedia at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauge_(firearms)

The nitro proof mark is on the side of the barrels, not the flats, best seen in the pictures showing the sides of the receiver. The "N" is to the left of the "2.7 g G.B.R" over St m G (Stahl Mantel Geschoss or Steel Jacked Bullet). This is different than the mark for copper jacketed bullets, K m G for Kupfermantelgeschoss (if Wikipedia is to be believed).

On a different post here on Nitroexpress, Kuduae shared "It was proofed for a service charge of 2.7 gramm = 42 gr GBP = smokeless rifle flake powder. This was the contemporary smokeless load for the 9.3x72R with a 196 gr copper jacket bullet at 2020 fps. The 9.3x74R charge would be 3.5g = 54 gr."

Tinker pointed out that both triggers are single set triggers, where you push forward to set, reducing trigger pull weight to release. The front trigger is currently adjusted so these weights are fairly similar. The rear trigger has a very light pull when set.

I have not yet cast the chambers but can confirm that a 360 BPE (9.3x57r) case rim perfectly fits the chamber rim. Right now the 360 BPE cases I have don't fully seat, leaving the last 1/8" proud. Chambers are for a straight wall cartridge and fiddling with a dowel suggests this is indeed a 9.3x72r. I have some 9.3x72r ammo coming and will cast the chamber before using that.

Bores are shiny. Overall rifle is in quite nice condition and also surprisingly light weight, at only 7.5lb.

Gunbroker auction listing https://www.gunbroker.com/item/967656345

Will post pics below.

Thanks to folks that contributed to the post started by 85lc on this auction.

Also, if anyone has suggestions as to how I can scope this using the existing Triebel scope mounts, I would be grateful.

Chris

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lancaster
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374535 - 27/02/23 05:30 AM

to get a scope on the rifle you need someone who is able to build a scope mount and fit it into the bases by hand. I see no other way.


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93x64mm
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: lancaster]
      #374537 - 27/02/23 06:59 AM

You certainly have a great piece there CJF.
Yes I'd cast the chambers just to be sure & slug the barrels as an added precaution.
Those mounts will certainly be a labour of love to do.
Perhaps doing one QD mount with a micro red dot on it may be possible?

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374539 - 27/02/23 07:05 AM



Single set triggers (thanks for pointing this out Tinker and John)

Edited by CJF (28/02/23 11:51 AM)

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lancaster
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374541 - 27/02/23 07:34 AM



































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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: lancaster]
      #374546 - 27/02/23 09:38 AM

Thank you Lancaster!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374571 - 27/02/23 05:57 PM

Nice looking rifle with tasteful engraving.

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John aka NitroX

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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374572 - 27/02/23 06:06 PM

Quote:



Gunbroker auction listing https://www.gunbroker.com/item/967656345




Quote:

Guss Stahl Krupt Essen W. Weisgerber SxS Double Rifle

This is a Guss Stahl Krupt Essen W. Weisgerber Prima SxS Double Rifle, with a 24” barrel. I’m not sure what this really is. Any info anyone has would be appreciated. I cannot figure the caliber of this rifle. Trying different bullets, chamber is bigger than 223 but smaller than 308. Barrel bore in very good condition. Bluing is probably about 90% with minor small marks visible in the pics. Top of barrel is stamped W. Weisgerber/St. Wendel. Monte Carlo fine wood stocks are very good with age appropriate minor handling marks. Stock has ammo storage compartment. Receiver has some real nice engraving. Other internal barrel stampings are: 2,7 gGBP, 118/35. This is a quality double rifle. Gun has not been test fired. Pictures show the condition of this gun. Estate sale. AS IS NO REFUNDS. Ask questions before bidding. SN 5255 Store Stock #16807




Btw set triggers on a double. Amazing to me. Hopefully shoots accurately ascwell.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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85lc
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: NitroX]
      #374590 - 28/02/23 06:02 AM

Chris,

That is a very nice rifle and glad you got it. Concerning case and scope mounts, Axel can elaborate better than I can but I will try below.

If a 360BPE case does not enter fully, I suspect the chamber is for the German case head (D) which is smaller than the English case (E case).

The 9.3x72 brass that I have appears ton have the English head diameter. I have had to thin the head @ the web using a small lathe and then resize the case by pushing it all the way into my 9.3x72 dies without the shell holder.

Triebel scope mounts are different from the more normal claw mount. I have a double rifle with the same scope mounts. Axel provided a great explanation of how they function. The lock potrion of the mount is in the rear where there are double post where the back post is movable and locks the mount system. Itt is easier to understand by looking at your rifle. I checked with NECG and they will not build scope mounts for Triebel system. I toyed with the idea of making mounts but have not gotten further.

--------------------
RB

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: 85lc]
      #374600 - 28/02/23 11:32 AM

Roy - Thank you for the clarification about the different case head dimensions for German vs English cases. Re the Triebel mounts, I wonder if it is just the rear mount that differs from the standard claw mount since that is what moves the retaining mechanism/spring from the barrel to mount.

John - I really like the engraving too. I was impressed by how sharp the engraving and checkering were when I was considering how high to go on this one.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374601 - 28/02/23 11:56 AM

That is a very nice rifle built to high standards. Congratulations!

Curl

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374603 - 28/02/23 12:06 PM

Additional pictures

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374604 - 28/02/23 12:06 PM











Edited by CJF (28/02/23 12:07 PM)

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374605 - 28/02/23 12:07 PM









Edited by CJF (28/02/23 12:09 PM)

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374606 - 28/02/23 12:08 PM









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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374607 - 28/02/23 12:09 PM

[image]https://i.imgur.com/76WtaeQh.jpg?1[/image]

[image]https://i.imgur.com/76WtaeQh.jpg[/image]

Edited by NitroX (28/02/23 05:32 PM)

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374608 - 28/02/23 12:16 PM

I'm not used to seeing bullet traps on the comb of the stock...usually seem to be on the bottom surface in front of the toe. Neat detail is that the inside surface of the bullet trap door is covered in leather to silence shells in there from rattling.







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tinker
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374612 - 28/02/23 03:09 PM

The front sight looks like it might have a flip up 'moon sight' feature

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: tinker]
      #374615 - 28/02/23 05:52 PM

I usually don't like 9.3x72 rifles, because of being under powered for calibre in modern terms. Usually well priced though and on the market more often as vintage rifles or combination guns than x74R examples.

But this one is really nice, first standard and again I love it's Germanic/Middle European engraving and vintage styling. I love to have one like this in my gunrack! Price was reasonable too for the overall rifle.

I don't want to drive the thread off course. But a couple of questions.

Is the .360 BPE the same cartridge as a 9.3x72R? Given the mentioned differences between the casehead of the British cartridge and the German cartridge.

A 196 gr or there abouts projectile at about 2200 fps. Jacketed or lead projectile? What were these cartridges used to hunt with? Roe deer probably? Hare and fox? Boar is on the engraving, did they extend to boar? Red deer? Chamois? Again on the excellent engraving.

I think most Aussie feral pigs could be readily handled by a 196gr at 2200 fps. Most are smaller especially in the Southern parts. Euro boar are generally larger. Fox and hares? If going by set triggers and accurate and if scoped, why not at closer ranges? One barrel could be used for more accurate sighting. Feral goats if course. Fallow and chital deer why not? Red and Rusa deer with good shots. Wallabies and roos easily. Perfect under a hundred metres.

Hopefully it fares you well.

Often well priced combination guns are in a shotgun gauge and a 9.3x62R. I assume for mixed small game shotgunning and other smaller or medium game rifle shooting.

Thanks for any answers.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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kuduae
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: NitroX]
      #374619 - 28/02/23 10:52 PM

Quote:

Triebel scope mounts are different from the more normal claw mount. I have a double rifle with the same scope mounts. Axel provided a great explanation of how they function. The lock potrion of the mount is in the rear where there are double post where the back post is movable and locks the mount system. Itt is easier to understand by looking at your rifle. I checked with NECG and they will not build scope mounts for Triebel system. I toyed with the idea of making mounts but have not gotten further.


As Roy hinted to my explanations, here are two photos of the rear, locking top of a A.W.Triebel, Suhl, mount. They show the rectangular, fixed positioning bosses, fitted to the front holes in the base. The movable, spring loaded hooks lock the scope down in the rear holes. The hooks are connected by rods to the checkered grip piece. They are pushed back to disengage them from the base. This allows the scope to be detached from the mount. The front base and claws of a Triebel mount are of standard design, handmade and -fitted of course.

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kuduae
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: kuduae]
      #374620 - 01/03/23 12:08 AM

Quote:

If a 360BPE case does not enter fully, I suspect the chamber is for the German case head (D) which is smaller than the English case (E case).
The 9.3x72 brass that I have appears ton have the English head diameter. I have had to thin the head @ the web using a small lathe and then resize the case by pushing it all the way into my 9.3x72 dies without the shell holder.


Prior to 1909 every gun- or ammomaker used his own dimensions. All 9.3x72R cartridges were black powder – lead bullet designs originally. So all factory loads are essentially “Nitro for Black” loads to this day. There were four different cases, all nominally 9.3x72R. We may dismiss the 9.3x72R Sauer & Sohn here, as it was a bottlenecked case, similar to a thin rimmed, slightly shorter 9.3x74R case.
The 9.3x72R E (English) case had a .429” base, .484” rim and a straight taper to the .395” od mouth.
The 9.3x72R D (Deutsch) case had a .433” base, .492” rim, a rapid taper down from base for about 15 mm, then nearly cylindrical to the .395 od mouth.
The 9.3x72R Nimrod was nearly identical to the E type, merely with a slightly smaller .478” rim.
To clean up the confusion a commission of proofhouses, ammo- and gunmakers was formed to normalize case dimensions. The normalized cases were designed without any odd changes of taper, so any of the older chambers could be easily rechambered for the new Normal shape. Reproofing was unnecessary as the loads were unchanged.
So the 9.3x72R Normal was born, with a .430” base, a .486” rim and a straight taper to mouth. This is the only type still available.
If a modern 9.3x72R Normal case does not fit your chamber, smoke the case with a candle to find out where it hangs up in your chamber. Resize the case accordingly, using improvised sizing dies, until it fits your chamber.

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85lc
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: kuduae]
      #374621 - 01/03/23 12:35 AM

Axel,
As a;ways, a great explanation and clarification. Your pictures are worth thousands of words.

John,
I read the 360 BPE was developed from the 9.3x72R. I read that there is some augument as to which came first so perhaps the 9.3 is an elongated 360.

Regardless, they are basically the same cartridge except the 360 is 2.25" long and the 9.3 is 2.835" long. There are several cartridges that use the 9.3x72R as a basis. I had a nice kipplauf in 8x72R. I have another in 9.0x72R.

The cartridge (particularly in nitro form) is similar to a 35 Rem which was a highly regarded deer and black bear cartridge, bothg being much larger than roe deer. Like any cartridge, shot placement is important.

Perpahs Axel can elaborate on the use of the 9.3x72R.

--------------------
RB

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lancaster
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: 85lc]
      #374629 - 01/03/23 05:58 AM

the 360 BPE 2 1/4" is the original, coming from GB between 1865 and 1870, imho, the first CF cartridge with a caliber under 10 mm.

like the other early BPE cartridges it was used in germany but had a lot of competition with many cartridges using this for basic brass. the 9,3x73R was maybe developt before nitro powder was available but once loaded with nitro it made a good cartridge with low pressure what was top for the older break actions around 1900. then it became realy popular into the 1920s.

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: tinker]
      #374911 - 07/03/23 01:28 PM

Quote:

The front sight looks like it might have a flip up 'moon sight' feature



I see what makes you think from the pic. I double checked, and that's just how the front sight was filed and polished. Unfortunately, no moon sight. Which would have been handy for my older eyes.

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CJF
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Re: Pre WW1 German double rifle retailed by Weisgerber [Re: CJF]
      #374913 - 07/03/23 01:55 PM

First off, thank you all for sharing your expertise and kind feedback.

I've had a chance to cast the chambers and I've also received some S&B 9.3x72r loaded ammo. Rim size for the loaded ammo is perfect and the cast confirms a 72mm straight walled case. But the ammo doesn't fully seat, standing around of the barrel breaches by a small amount, roughly equal to the rim thickness. I will attach pics below showing this, along with measurements and where I think the cases might be hanging up.

Comparing measurements at the case head, the chamber is large enough for the S&B cases. But starting about 1/2" inch in, the chamber tolerance becomes very small. Starting 1.5" in, the chamber becomes straight walled to the case mouth. There is roughly 10mm of leade till the rifling starts, and that shows a 0.340" bore and lands at 0.358". No wear marks on the case towards the rim or the mouth...just in the mid section.

I didn't take a picture of it, the rifle very nearly closes on the loaded S&B rounds. I'm afraid to really snap the action closed to try to get these chambered but it's so close.

Unless there's a better idea, I will order brass and dies and try this with unloaded cases. If that doesn't work, then I guess it's either custom dies or have the chambers touched up with a the standard reamer. I'd prefer to avoid that if possible and let the next generation inherit this in the shape I found it.

Here are some pics:


Note below the left most measurement is the case head, not the rim, which as 0.492" on the cast.




Edited by CJF (07/03/23 01:57 PM)

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