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333Jeffery
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Reged: 21/04/06
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Loc: Florida
Market for Doubles on the Decline?
      #358131 - 15/11/21 06:06 AM

Has the market for double-rifles declined in the last few years? I ask because I have been trying to sell a WW Greener double for a few months now, with few nibbles from potential buyers. Even the retailers like Hallowell and Barnett don't seem too interested. My asking price is fairly low for a nice boxlock in original condition. Just wondering what happened to the market for doubles.

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93x64mm
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #358132 - 15/11/21 06:59 AM

333Jeffery
I'd try right here mate - at least you are talking to the folks who are most likely to have a crack at something like your piece!
WW Greener's were always well made totally dependable guns, a few photos here & your asking price hopefully will see your double to a new home.


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tinker
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #358134 - 15/11/21 07:05 AM

Definitely post it here.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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transvaal
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Reged: 19/01/13
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #358137 - 15/11/21 08:24 AM

Significant decline in value of double rifles over the last 10 years.

In the Holt's auction of June 21, 2021 a like new (made in 1993) Purdey .577NE, engraved by Kelly only brought $82,000.00 plus purchasers fee of 25% which made the total $103,000.00 15 years ago this rifle would have brought a final price of $150,000.00


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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
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Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: tinker]
      #358138 - 15/11/21 08:33 AM

333Jeff,
The short answer is yes, the overall double rifle market has been in decline year over year for maybe the last 8 years. A "fairly low" price is ambiguous….if it is priced to current market, it will sell.
That is unless the rifle is a fairly sought after "name" maker in top condition or something like a .577 NE.

Even a very nice boxlock NE from Brit makers does not command a break even price for someone that bought at the peak.

You can see this on your mentioned websites from various sellers as you named having rifles list for months or years and no sale. They bought in fairly high and now can't tolerate taking a loss. Guess they are holding out for a major market comeback.

You can look at Gunbroker, Guns International, and auction results and see what the current averages are running.

This having been said; how about some pictures of your Greener for us to drool over?

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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333Jeffery
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Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #358143 - 15/11/21 05:28 PM

This link has the photos of it:https://flic.kr/s/aHsmX7Tbgj

I hope they show up, I'm new to this. flickr album


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Waidmannsheil
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Reged: 19/04/13
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #358145 - 15/11/21 06:28 PM

Looks very nice indeed, what cartridge is it chambered for.

Matt.

--------------------
There is nothing wrong with vegetarian food, so long as there is meat with it.


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93x64mm
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #358146 - 15/11/21 10:15 PM

Quote:

Looks very nice indeed, what cartridge is it chambered for.

Matt.




Lovely case hardening & the engraving is superb.
Very nice piece indeed - looks bigger than .375 to me!


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crshelton
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Reged: 10/11/15
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #358151 - 16/11/21 02:43 AM

One thing that attracts attention and prospects is a good picture. This recent picture of my Simson .405 DR is flashy and generated compliments whereas the following photo was largely ignored.


older, dim photo


In fact, the exhibition grade wood was what drew me to the rifle several years ago, that and the caliber. It was a good purchase and I still hunt with the rifle.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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Ripp
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: crshelton]
      #358153 - 16/11/21 03:06 AM

Quote:

One thing that attracts attention and prospects is a good picture. This recent picture of my Simson .405 DR is flashy and generated compliments whereas the following photo was largely ignored.


older, dim photo


In fact, the exhibition grade wood was what drew me to the rifle several years ago, that and the caliber. It was a good purchase and I still hunt with the rifle.




VERY good advice... 100% agree.. the old story, a picture is worth a thousand words holds true..

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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3DogMike
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: Waidmannsheil]
      #358154 - 16/11/21 03:06 AM

Quote:

Looks very nice indeed, what cartridge is it chambered for.
Matt.




Nice looking rifle.
Looks from the rather struck out/polished barrel inscription that it is a .360 #2 (3"case) ….. 55 Cordite and 320 grain .366"/.367" bullet

A fairly specialized "enthusiast" cartridge these days…….brass made by Bertram, otherwise case forming from .450/.400 3" Jeffery. (depending on rim thickness and base diameter in the chamber)
Proper loading dies could be a rather long wait.

- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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333Jeffery
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Reged: 21/04/06
Posts: 103
Loc: Florida
Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #358167 - 16/11/21 08:35 AM

It's in .360 No.2 nitro. I have the reloading dies for it, but no ammo. It has ejectors and bushed strikers.

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HeymSR20
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Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 244
Loc: Scotland
Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #358171 - 16/11/21 10:57 AM

Speaking from this side of the pond, double rifles are always going to be more difficult to sell. Your Greener is a very nice rifle but:

1) 360 No2 whilst a very good cartridge is not a big dangerous game type cartridge. It’s a antelope, deer, wildboar type cartridge. And I don’t think anyone is now making ammo other than Kynoch. It is nominally 9.3 so you can probably use 9.3 bullets.

If it was or had been rechambered to 9.3 x74r then it would be more usable for wildboar etc as ammo is more readily available

2) for its intended use, most nowadays use an optical sight and most buyers would want it scoped.

3) and Greener are no longer in existence so you don’t have any market drive from an ongoing brand.

You also need to factor that for many, the Pandemic has put paid to many hunting adventures, and thus purchase of rifles.

So what you have is a nice double rifle, but most potential buyers these days would struggle to find a use for it, and being a boxlock, it has minimal collector value. If it was a 9.3x74r, 375 h&h, 400 or 470 nitro, then there would be a market.


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LRF
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Reged: 28/03/11
Posts: 306
Loc: minnesota ,usa
Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: HeymSR20]
      #358172 - 16/11/21 12:07 PM

Quote:

Speaking from this side of the pond, double rifles are always going to be more difficult to sell. Your Greener is a very nice rifle but:

1) 360 No2 whilst a very good cartridge is not a big dangerous game type cartridge. It’s a antelope, deer, wildboar type cartridge. And I don’t think anyone is now making ammo other than Kynoch. It is nominally 9.3 so you can probably use 9.3 bullets.

If it was or had been rechambered to 9.3 x74r then it would be more usable for wildboar etc as ammo is more readily available

2) for its intended use, most nowadays use an optical sight and most buyers would want it scoped.

3) and Greener are no longer in existence so you don’t have any market drive from an ongoing brand.

You also need to factor that for many, the Pandemic has put paid to many hunting adventures, and thus purchase of rifles.

So what you have is a nice double rifle, but most potential buyers these days would struggle to find a use for it, and being a boxlock, it has minimal collector value. If it was a 9.3x74r, 375 h&h, 400 or 470 nitro, then there would be a market.




So what is your estimation of value/price?


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3DogMike
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: HeymSR20]
      #358173 - 16/11/21 12:23 PM

Quote:

Speaking from this side of the pond, double rifles are always going to be more difficult to sell. Your Greener is a very nice rifle but:

1) 360 No2 whilst a very good cartridge is not a big dangerous game type cartridge. It’s a antelope, deer, wildboar type cartridge. And I don’t think anyone is now making ammo other than Kynoch. It is nominally 9.3 so you can probably use 9.3 bullets.

If it was or had been rechambered to 9.3 x74r then it would be more usable for wildboar etc as ammo is more readily available

2) for its intended use, most nowadays use an optical sight and most buyers would want it scoped.

3) and Greener are no longer in existence so you don’t have any market drive from an ongoing brand.

You also need to factor that for many, the Pandemic has put paid to many hunting adventures, and thus purchase of rifles.

So what you have is a nice double rifle, but most potential buyers these days would struggle to find a use for it, and being a boxlock, it has minimal collector value. If it was a 9.3x74r, 375 h&h, 400 or 470 nitro, then there would be a market.




very fair and on point synopsis except for:
"..If it was or had been rechambered to 9.3 x74R then it would be more usable…."

The rechamber you envision is not possible as the .360 #2 is a .450/.400 3" Jeffery sized case, much larger diameter than the 9.3x74R.
Yes, the .400/.350 Rigby and those similar, before reintroduced brass and ammo, were redone like that….rebore/rechamber….but the case dimensions were enough alike to get away with it.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #358175 - 16/11/21 03:27 PM

It does seem that double rifle prices are declining. I remember a cased H&H Dominion grade in 500/.465 that was on Mike Schwandt’s website for high 30’s at one point and then later was offered in the low 20’s. I think doubles just got well ahead of themselves on price and now it’s time for a cooling off. The really desirable stuff (peachy vintage Purdey .375 and .465 etc) is probably holding its ground pretty well however.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: mckinney]
      #358176 - 16/11/21 06:13 PM

Sorry, but my opinion. Bloody good if the "market" is declining. Get rid of the investors and viva the users and actual shooters.

Probably due also to lesser economic times.

Nevertheless the still huge prices are beyond most actual users wallets.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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3DogMike
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Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: NitroX]
      #358188 - 17/11/21 12:46 AM

Quote:

Sorry, but my opinion. Bloody good if the "market" is declining. Get rid of the investors and viva the users and actual shooters.

Probably due also to lesser economic times.

Nevertheless the still huge prices are beyond most actual users wallets.




+1

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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Yochanan
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: 333Jeffery]
      #358207 - 17/11/21 10:52 AM

Your rifle looks like it’s in good condition and the stock got nice wood. I’m sure your double with have potential customers in the collectors and enthusiast segment. I have hunted with people who use doubles frequently on driven hunts for wildboar, deer, moose, bear etc. They are looking for dependable and sound doubles chambered for reasonably easy to obtain ammo calibres.

Regarding old doubles, shotguns and drillings, there been a lot of tired guns that been surfing the wave. Today many look at calibre, condition of action, stock and barrels of used guns. Optics and claw mounts are relatively cheap to have fitted compared to a new stock made for a sidelock gun, barrels sleeving or major action work.

I have seen a 360no2 Scotish double that was converted to 9,3x74r by a gunsmith who lined the chambers and re-chambered but it will ruin the collectors value of your gun.

I know people who sold their big bore doubles after a few big game hunts and got a double in medium calibre for “most of their hunting” 7x57r. 7x65r, 8x57irs, 8x65rs, 30 blaser, 303, 9,3x74r or 375’ and 400’s for big bears, moose etc. I think the prices for old shotguns and doubles been too high for a long time and am happy to see the prices adjust to the market.

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.


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mckinney
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: Yochanan]
      #358217 - 17/11/21 01:02 PM

Doesn’t John Taylor mention using a Farquharson in .360 no 2 to take lion off a cattle ranch he worked on in his early days? I know he mentions the cartridge favorably.

The .360 as loaded by Kynamco pushes a 320 grain bullet around 2200 fps, about the same speed the 9.3 X 62 pushes 286 grains. Seems to me the talk of not enough gun is questionable. I don’t think a lion could tell it wasn’t a .375 H&H. Surely it’s enough gun for anything in North America.

I’d keep the gun and use it as is without destroying the lines (and handling) with claw mounts and telescopic sights. It’s not really meant to be a sniper rifle. It’s a fine and elegant gun in an interesting and adequate caliber if you ask me.


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tinker
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: mckinney]
      #358218 - 17/11/21 02:00 PM

I think that I have missed seeing the price.

Can you post a link to your for sale ad?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: mckinney]
      #358219 - 17/11/21 02:21 PM

Quote:

Doesn’t John Taylor mention using a Farquharson in .360 no 2 to take lion off a cattle ranch he worked on in his early days? I know he mentions the cartridge favorably.

The .360 as loaded by Kynamco pushes a 320 grain bullet around 2200 fps, about the same speed the 9.3 X 62 pushes 286 grains. Seems to me the talk of not enough gun is questionable. I don’t think a lion could tell it wasn’t a .375 H&H. Surely it’s enough gun for anything in North America.

I’d keep the gun and use it as is without destroying the lines (and handling) with claw mounts and telescopic sights. It’s not really meant to be a sniper rifle. It’s a fine and elegant gun in an interesting and adequate caliber if you ask me.




Seems to me, that's about all the .333 Jeffery put out, a 300gr. at 2,000fps to 2,200fps. I remember a picture from Taylor's book of a charging lioness hit in the forehead with the 300gr. from the Jeffery round. "The Smash" as he called it.iirc

The 9.3x62 does about 2,320/40fps with the 286gr., soft and solid. That would be the 1925 load. Today, it easily does well over 2,400, but only with handloads. Dimension wise, it is after all, an "improved" case capacity design, way ahead of it's time. From a Mauser factory chamber, mine measure .455" shoulders, .001" over Ackley's .454" shoulders on the standard case, however it is still loaded like a .35 Whelen, which it far out shadows for capacity.

So - that .360 is quite a round indeed. 2,200fps with 320gr. - sounds great to me.


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3DogMike
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: DarylS]
      #358221 - 17/11/21 02:39 PM

Sad fact (for an "investor" type), double rifles have declined in price over the last few years. "If" non major caliber then the decline has been steeper.
Any "collector/investor", as opposed to a true double rifle enthusiast, just needs to accept that sometimes "investments" go South and they will have to sell at a loss?
Seems to me that there is minimal interest in a sale if the rifle in question is not/has not been on GI, or GB, or listed here? Pretty much "double secret probation" if you have to know the expected asking price….
…..has the owner ever even shot it?
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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500Boswell
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #358228 - 17/11/21 05:06 PM

I think the double fad and novelty has been over for a few years ,or the last ten, its been going downhill ,along with the declining World economy ,the last thing most people need or want, is an expensive double ,nice idea ,but the future for hunting /travel even a job, etc is looking grim, I will most probably lose my job next year to the ''No Stab no Job''.

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crshelton
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Re: Market for Doubles on the Decline? [Re: 500Boswell]
      #358239 - 18/11/21 01:33 AM

"Get rid of the investors and viva the users and actual shooters."

Indeed!

Both my DRs are actual shooters and not collectors and were purchased to shoot and hunt with and not as investments. My .405 WCF is great for hunting and my .45-70 is presently being readied for a re-regulation to properly handle standard ammo of NF 350 grain SS at 2100 fps. The loaded ammo is impressive and should kick butt on all but the biggest and baddest.

--------------------
CRS,NRA Benefactor Member, TSRA, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center
Android Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/


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