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NitroXAdministrator
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A modern custom Howdah pistol
      #353881 - 31/05/21 01:45 AM

Fantasy time, at leeast for most of us.

You win lotto, a big win and decide to commission a double rifle maker to build your own Howdah handgun.

The design is to be something like the one recently posted.



6 1/2in. rifled barrels
overall length 13 1/4in
weight approximately 3 1/4lbs.

Yes it is a bit dated but so is hunting from the back of an elephant.

I do think hammers are an absolute requirement. Otherwise a modern form of decocker/cocker. Comment?

I do like the .577 calibre. But what cartridge would you have it made in? The orignal .577 Snider bp? Or what modern cartridge would do similiar in smokeless?

Maybe a custom .577 NE considerably shorted? Any ideas?

A .500 and .450 range might also be fine, even to a .375?

For example I have already mentioned a .45/70 might make a dandy modern howdah cartridge choice. Similar case capacity to a .577 Snider.

Rimmed is pretty much essential.

Any cartridge choice must have reasonable recoil. A full NE powered handgun is just ridiculous. So include estimates of velocity and recoil in such a weight handgun and barrel lenght.

Please comment.

Which maker and why?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (31/05/21 01:47 AM)


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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: NitroX]
      #353883 - 31/05/21 02:57 AM

Oh WOW Im onboard for this one! I would say 6-8 inch barrels, maybe even a second set OR a duplicate gun with longer (say 14 inches) and a detachable shoulder stock , packaged as a set.

Yes I like the hammer idea too; but with them tilted just a bit into the center so that they can be cocked at the same time with one hand-Taylors sells a SxS Coach Gun like that. Id want a side lever over a top lever; but Im flexible on that one. Also a true pistol grip (like the one pictured).

Cartridge, Hmmmm? Lets see 45-70 would be the easy button but maybe something a bit shorter. Id certainly prefer bigger. How'bout 50-70? Theres always 500S&W if youre open to smokeless

Youll have to school me on why it has to have rifled barrels. I recall some talk awhile back about I seem to a cartridge based on the brass 20ga shells shortened to 2 inches called 600 Manchester. One version had round ball exposed but held in place with 5 or 6 crimps. The other had a conical loaded like a bullet. I dont recall any load data other than it was a BP load. Seems to me that would have the punch and look

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HeymSR20
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #353884 - 31/05/21 03:10 AM

What about something along the lines of the 454 Casull. 8” barrels and external hammers.

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tinker
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: HeymSR20]
      #353885 - 31/05/21 03:41 AM

For the big nasty bovine, a .500 440gr bullet at 1400fps has shown to do everything that needs to be done although still the handgun isn't a stopping gun. It'll kill and it'll definitely change the plans of a big animal, but it's not exactly a stopper.

That doesn't keep the fellows from handgun hunting big bovine, big ungulates and even hippo.

Although anything over the 50/500 caliber is regulated as "destructive device" for handguns here in the USA, if money wasn't a problem I'd go forward with a 20bore or 16bore using 70 or more grains Black or a nitro energy equivalent.
Excessive velocity will only give the hunter greater range. That's not needed for this kind of gun.

There are some handsome hammerless designs - but I'd want small curved back action or island locks with hammers.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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tinker
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #353886 - 31/05/21 03:55 AM

Quote:


Cartridge, Hmmmm? Lets see 45-70 would be the easy button but maybe something a bit shorter. Id certainly prefer bigger. How'bout 50-70? Theres always 500S&W if youre open to smokeless





I did this for someone a couple of weeks ago







Not a break open gun, and not a cartridge that I'm longing for as a hunting gun for myself, but since you mentioned hyphenated cartridges I figured I'd put that up for kicks...

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: NitroX]
      #353887 - 31/05/21 04:19 AM

Quote:

Fantasy time, at leeast for most of us.

You win lotto, a big win and decide to commission a double rifle maker to build your own Howdah handgun.

The design is to be something like the one recently posted.



6 1/2in. rifled barrels
overall length 13 1/4in
weight approximately 3 1/4lbs.






because the shotgun project is called a cheap and bad idea before I have seen once pics of a howdah pistol exactly in this style with smooth barrels shooting 20 ga slugs with brass cases.
With the right donor shotgun its possible to change anything in the way it have to be.

cut and welding is the great secret.I think this is the best way to build such a pistol if a cut off shotgun is legal to fire in your area.

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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lancaster
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: tinker]
      #353888 - 31/05/21 04:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Cartridge, Hmmmm? Lets see 45-70 would be the easy button but maybe something a bit shorter. Id certainly prefer bigger. How'bout 50-70? Theres always 500S&W if youre open to smokeless





I did this for someone a couple of weeks ago







Not a break open gun, and not a cartridge that I'm longing for as a hunting gun for myself, but since you mentioned hyphenated cartridges I figured I'd put that up for kicks...






will the 50-110 generate more energy than the 500 S&W in a handgun?

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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tinker
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: lancaster]
      #353889 - 31/05/21 04:30 AM

There's more case capacity in the 50-110 and that's a heat treated cylinder. The limit will be the brass, and it's Starline brass so really the limit will likely be the shooter.

Frankly, the S&W can be loaded to perform beyond the comfort level of many/most shooters. I don't know how far the owner of that revolver will go with his load development, but there's a great deal of potential there for him to explore.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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93x64mm
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: tinker]
      #353892 - 31/05/21 07:05 AM

Quote:

There's more case capacity in the 50-110 and that's a heat treated cylinder. The limit will be the brass, and it's Starline brass so really the limit will likely be the shooter.

Frankly, the S&W can be loaded to perform beyond the comfort level of many/most shooters. I don't know how far the owner of that revolver will go with his load development, but there's a great deal of potential there for him to explore.




Holy crap Tinker!
You'd need to be built like ol' Arnie to hang onto this cannon going flat out with BP!
Imagine the muzzle flash.........it'd be awesome to say the least
Well over my comfort level for sure!


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Jim_C
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: 93x64mm]
      #353893 - 31/05/21 07:25 AM

I'd go with the .577 Snider round. Tradition, and manageable recoil even if shot one-handed from my weak side. I tend to prefer heavy projectiles, which the Snider round provides. Definitely with hammers, but the maker is problematic: I'd much prefer an original to any from a modern maker.

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tinker
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: Jim_C]
      #353894 - 31/05/21 07:31 AM

Jim I handled a modern production Boss 12 bore back action hammer rifle at the last Safari Club show here in Northern Nevada

I'd guess that Westley Richards, W.W. Greener, and maybe Holland and Holland or Purdey could also be persuaded to take the project.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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LRF
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: tinker]
      #353896 - 31/05/21 09:24 AM

I would consider a 12 gauge slug round as an interesting idea. I even think a 20 gauge slug may be a good choice.

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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: LRF]
      #353898 - 31/05/21 09:46 AM

When I picture Howdah cartridges, theres a certain length to width ratio that I see. 45-70 is too long with a too small bore size. The 600 Manchester seemed just about right

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tinker
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #353900 - 31/05/21 11:17 AM

Where is there a reference to the 600 Manchester cartridge that you mention here?

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: tinker]
      #353901 - 31/05/21 11:37 AM

Guys. In 16 to 12 bore, a round ball is all that is needed. Hardened, or soft- your choice, as would be the powder charge. A 2 3/4" 12 will hold 7 drams if BP.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: tinker]
      #353903 - 31/05/21 12:03 PM

Quote:

Where is there a reference to the 600 Manchester cartridge that you mention here?




Ill see if I can dig it up. I found it on one of those late night google searches. Im not even sure what I started searching for; but got side tracked onto 17 other topics when I found it. I could be totally wrong but I just remember it was a stubby case with a big ball

Edited by EDELWEISS (31/05/21 12:13 PM)


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tinker
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #353906 - 31/05/21 12:58 PM

At the shop in one of the cartridge displays we have a shortened 600 nitro case with a lead bullet seated in there

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: tinker]
      #353908 - 31/05/21 01:16 PM

That's even smaller thN 20 bore.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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tinker
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: DarylS]
      #353910 - 31/05/21 02:32 PM

But it's cool, and we're talking about cool.
So there's that.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: tinker]
      #353912 - 31/05/21 04:13 PM

Quote:

Quote:


Cartridge, Hmmmm? Lets see 45-70 would be the easy button but maybe something a bit shorter. Id certainly prefer bigger. How'bout 50-70? Theres always 500S&W if youre open to smokeless





I did this for someone a couple of weeks ago







Not a break open gun, and not a cartridge that I'm longing for as a hunting gun for myself, but since you mentioned hyphenated cartridges I figured I'd put that up for kicks...




Yes in reality and maybe in history a large calibre revolver would probably be used a a howdah self defence handgun against tiger attack. There is a large calibre Webley, .577?, thread on the NE forums.

A .455 Webley would probably work well enough as well.

Four to seven rounds in the cyclinder allow quick follow up additional shots.

A modern .357 revolver would work pretty well as well.

Something like this hand cannon, no doubt would work.

The side by side howdah pistil in large calibre originated as a muzzle loading bp pistol. Tqwo qucik shots at very close range. Perhaps when the muzzle loading long arms had been expended already on the hunt or the charge?

Then a short period when small numbers of cartridge case howdah pistols were made. Also loading blakc powder. No doubt the cost went up as well. Before the era of larger reliable handguns/revolvers with similar power. Perhaps the Webley became a popular handgun to carry on an elephants back?

But also the era of non muzzle loaders, breech loading drs and shotguns, which also could be reloaded quickly compared to a muzzle loader. So perhaps less need for a handgun.

I will put a probability out there, the howdah handgun originated not just for a "tiger on the elephants back" but also do to the slow reloading spped of a muzzle loading rifle or shotgun on the swaying rocking back of an elephant. A single or double barreled ML handgun used a a weapon of last defence. We know shorter barreled rifles and shotguns existed for use in or on a howdah. A handgun is of course very short and can be swumg around and pointed quickly, where a long arm has to manouvre around the bodies on the howdah saddle.

So my hypothesis on the howdah:

1. Became a weapon of last defence on a howdah saddle due to :
1a. Long arms being muzzle loaders and once shot, took too long to reload, a handgun provided quick emergemcy shots;

1b. A howdah pistol being short was manouverable in the cramoed howdah saddle full 360 degrees, around the other riders.

2. With the creation of breech loading long arms, there was less need for a howdah pistol, but:

2a. We see these lovely breech loading vrass case howdah pistols in limited numbers;

2b. A muzzle loading howdah pistol would still have been useful and effective in the age of breech loading wlong arms. It is a weapon of short length considerable power or last resort. Two powerful shots probably wiill resolve the threat or not at all.

3. With the advent of large and reliable powerful revolvers, the side by side and single shot howdah handgun became redundant.

But back to the topic. They are cool. And I want one. And we are fantasising about building a modern side by side version, and what it could be chambered for.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: lancaster]
      #353913 - 31/05/21 04:27 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Fantasy time, at leeast for most of us.

You win lotto, a big win and decide to commission a double rifle maker to build your own Howdah handgun.

The design is to be something like the one recently posted.



6 1/2in. rifled barrels
overall length 13 1/4in
weight approximately 3 1/4lbs.






because the shotgun project is called a cheap and bad idea before I have seen once pics of a howdah pistol exactly in this style with smooth barrels shooting 20 ga slugs with brass cases.
With the right donor shotgun its possible to change anything in the way it have to be.

cut and welding is the great secret.I think this is the best way to build such a pistol if a cut off shotgun is legal to fire in your area.




Yes a shotgun with hammers could well be a sensible choice as the base for such a howdah handgun.

Mick/264 and Marrakai both owned a Greener Empire Shotgun in 12 gauge which was converted to a .577 :ight NE double rifle.

Such a shotgun could be modified also into a howdah handgun. Perhaps with 12 bore case and rifled barrels. Or a shortened .577 LNE case to a handgun cartridge length and a lighter bullet or round bullet.

Ideally a shotgun with hammers could be used.

Why? Because the hammers can be kpet down, the howdah relatively safe until the hammers are cocked. Much safer than a safety. A modern decocker safety would also be fairly safe on a loaded side by side handgun, "hanging around" ... BUT old fashioned hammers are just so much cooler.

I have hypothesised that a Baikal side by side .45/70 cut shorterd and a pistol grip fashioned from the pistol grip butt stock. would make a "spartan" howdah pistol. Looking at mine, it does appear chunky and I wonder what weight it would end up as. Very muzzle heavy I think.

A Pedersoli .45/70 S/S cut down with hammers would maybe be better. Higher cost!

Simialr case capacity. Disappointly smaller bore, a .50 to 480 gr projectile, however it would work.

Would at the minimum be a fun gun for am ACTION howdah shoot. Make a raised platform, rocking and swaying somewhat, and popup tiger or leopard targets at close range. One or two shots before it pops down again after a few seconds. Safety considerations might be difficult to ensure.

All these discussions assume any such project is legal where it would be made and owned. Anothe rproblematic consideration in the modern world.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #353914 - 31/05/21 04:37 PM

Quote:

Oh WOW Im onboard for this one! I would say 6-8 inch barrels, maybe even a second set OR a duplicate gun with longer (say 14 inches) and a detachable shoulder stock , packaged as a set.

Yes I like the hammer idea too; but with them tilted just a bit into the center so that they can be cocked at the same time with one hand-Taylors sells a SxS Coach Gun like that. Id want a side lever over a top lever; but Im flexible on that one. Also a true pistol grip (like the one pictured).

Cartridge, Hmmmm? Lets see 45-70 would be the easy button but maybe something a bit shorter. Id certainly prefer bigger. How'bout 50-70? Theres always 500S&W if youre open to smokeless

Youll have to school me on why it has to have rifled barrels. I recall some talk awhile back about I seem to a cartridge based on the brass 20ga shells shortened to 2 inches called 600 Manchester. One version had round ball exposed but held in place with 5 or 6 crimps. The other had a conical loaded like a bullet. I dont recall any load data other than it was a BP load. Seems to me that would have the punch and look




Of course a smooth bore howdah pistol or shotgun shooting slugs or ball I think might do as well.

No one seems to be able to answer just how accurate or well regulated these rifled howdah pistols were?

So it is possible a smooth bore 12 bore, 16 bore or 20 bore, with a slug or ball would do as well?

I reckon hitting a steel plate, 12 inches wide at 10 yards would be pretty good. A tiger at almost or actual touching distance would be even easy to shoot without even aiming, just pointing, if the elephant was not shaking and thrashing around, the howdah rcoking enough to almost break its leather staps, the tiger moving like a wound up spring of deaht, and ones bowels emptying into ones spotless pure white gentleman's trousers!

A Mad Max sawn off shotgun howdah pistol is a very cheap and real answer for a fun Howdah Action Target shoot. A plus is it also could shoot heavy shot! Again legality is a bit of an issue.
These howdah pistols I would think were both rifled and smoothbore. I think a lot of variation might have existed.

I do like the fantasy of a rifle howdah pistol, which does regulate to some extent. And could be used for practical hunting.

A longer barrel set and a clip on rifle stock, would make it very versatile.

I can hear the police raid banging on my front door right now.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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EDELWEISS
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: NitroX]
      #353925 - 31/05/21 10:47 PM

Here in the US we have a 1/2 inch limit; but there are exceptions for "sporting purposes" whatever the hell that is... I suppose more to the point, since this is a fantasy after winning the lottery, then the modest fee of a $200 is hardly an issue to go over 50 Caliber for a proper (looking) Howdah cartridge.

A safety cocker/decocker like the K-gun system would be a modern touch but Id still want hammers. No one has mentioned an O/U and Id kinda like to see that at least as an option just because options are nice. Ive seen the S&W 500 X Frame with the short barrel (I think its 5 inches) and the BFRs they are HUGE and not that its an issue on an elephant; but they seem disproportional to me.

Now dont slam me for this but Ive kinda wondered about the 3 barrel shotguns (third barrel on top). In 20ga it wouldnt be Tooooo large??? they have a single trigger, which on a shotgun I dont like since it doesnt allow for barrel selection BUT on a Howdah meant to be fired fast at bad breath range might be a good option.

--------------------
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: NitroX]
      #379757 - 30/09/23 04:39 PM

Reopening.

I wonder if any gunmaker has made a modern Howdah pistol?

If one could be made, what cartridge? As previously asked. It must be rimmed. And sound at least classic.

I wonder how well it could've regulated?

Rimmed.

Hammers, preferably traditional. But modern German decocking safeties could work.

Break open side by side. Side lever or under lever.

Would be great with a slide on butt stock for actual hunting.

Wide V sight. But maybe unobtrusive and base fitting for a modern handgun dot optic sight. But only if invisible when off.

Cased of course.

Didn't win lotto last night but it jackpotted. So can get a cased pair now.

Quote:

Fantasy time, at least for most of us.

You win lotto, a big win and decide to commission a double rifle maker to build your own Howdah handgun.

The design is to be something like the one recently posted.



6 1/2in. rifled barrels
overall length 13 1/4in
weight approximately 3 1/4lbs.

Yes it is a bit dated but so is hunting from the back of an elephant.

I do think hammers are an absolute requirement. Otherwise a modern form of decocker/cocker. Comment?

I do like the .577 calibre. But what cartridge would you have it made in? The orignal .577 Snider bp? Or what modern cartridge would do similiar in smokeless?

Maybe a custom .577 NE considerably shorted? Any ideas?

A .500 and .450 range might also be fine, even to a .375?

For example I have already mentioned a .45/70 might make a dandy modern howdah cartridge choice. Similar case capacity to a .577 Snider.

Rimmed is pretty much essential.

Any cartridge choice must have reasonable recoil. A full NE powered handgun is just ridiculous. So include estimates of velocity and recoil in such a weight handgun and barrel lenght.

Please comment.

Which maker and why?




--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: A modern custom Howdah pistol [Re: EDELWEISS]
      #379758 - 30/09/23 04:42 PM

Quote:

Here in the US we have a 1/2 inch limit; but there are exceptions for "sporting purposes" whatever the hell that is... I suppose more to the point, since this is a fantasy after winning the lottery, then the modest fee of a $200 is hardly an issue to go over 50 Caliber for a proper (looking) Howdah cartridge.




$200 is never an issue in my opinion.

Yes hammers better than a decocker.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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