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93mouse
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Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland
      #349905 - 02/02/21 05:51 AM

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2021/2/1/beretta-holding-acquires-holland-holland

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Ripp
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: 93mouse]
      #349909 - 02/02/21 06:19 AM

Quote:

https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2021/2/1/beretta-holding-acquires-holland-holland




WOW--that is big news...

Thx for posting...

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Rule303
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: Ripp]
      #349913 - 02/02/21 11:19 AM

Big news, yes, Good news, I do not know.

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: Rule303]
      #349917 - 02/02/21 12:47 PM

It’s been a dumpster fire at Holland’s since Chanel’s purchased it. They fired most of their gun room staff a few years ago and it’s been downhill ever since. Hopefully they will get back in the “Gun Business” and out of the “Fashion Business”. I bought my first Double Rifle in the London showroom over 30 years ago, I wish the new owners well !!!!!!!
Robert


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Ahmed577
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #349932 - 02/02/21 08:50 PM

David Winks sold me 2 new rifles and 2 second hand. Things changed and I have since bought 7 new Boss and 9 new PURDEY guns. I still hanker for another H&H MAYBE it could happen.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: Ahmed577]
      #349933 - 02/02/21 09:14 PM

I think it might tunr out to be a positive change.

In theory Beretta is a much better owner than some Parisian fashion fag, A historic gun company is a much better choice on paper.

I do not know Beretta's management. BUT have bought a LOT of Beretta products over time. Hell they should be sponsoring me for the amount of their products I showcaseL
2 x Beretta Hunting coats, one Green three layer, the other Tweed(y) three layer;
A Beretta hat;
Beretta ash trays;
Beretta trousers/moleskins, I like the design and cut of these and might get some tailored made to match - mine are worn out;
Beretta "polar" trousers, don't know what to call them, but bought for Scandinavian hunting, and water proof. Way too hot for Australia.
Beretta gun slips.
More Beretta stuff, I will add later.

No guns!!!!

As for fashion, the safari fashions of H&H fit, but they seem to have gone for a lot of mall and mainstream clothing which seems pretty much out of place. And distracting from their sporting image. Many European sporting companies do this as well, but usually have their mainstream fashions orientated to sporting and country pursuits. I think Beretta does this well as well, so hopefully H&H will concentrate on British and Colonial/Empire Sporting fashions.

The Beretta retail shop in London is very friendly and has good value gear. Maybe the Holland & Holland brand will be priced above the general Beretta brand, which makes strategic sense.

Beretta has good marketing channels in Australia and in Asia.

I think if done right, Beretta will take Holland & Holland to rival the success of the Rigby/Mauser combination of modern marketing and new but classic styled firearms and products.

Rigby has been a huge success and has no doubt been noticed both at shows, in the press and in other companies bottom lines of P&Ls. Rigby has modernised their range of firearms for the 21st Century, and the sales prove it. Success talks better than bullshit. Marc Newton at Rigby has been an innovative powerhouse and led that success.

I think Holland & Holland is capable of similar. And we could be seeing a lot of H&H talk in the future. It will depend on the right person and people leading the change, if any change.

The L & O group of Blaser/SIG/Suer/Mauser/Rigby and the Beretta Group of Beretta/Sako/Tikka/Others and now Holland and Holland, make both the two principal European firearms groups.

I believe Beretta is still a family owned company?

I must do some research into both groups and write an article on them.

I think the news is hopefully positive. And will take H&H from being an elitist brand for the very rich to hopefully and modern player of classically styled modern firearms of a more "affordable level". No doubt some naysayers will poo poo anything not perfectly historic. But unlike Rigby, I can't say I know of any particular H*H styles other than some of their double rifles. Which do doubt will stay a house mortgage price.

I like to take a positive view of things. In the absence of real evidence to the contrary.

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: NitroX]
      #349939 - 03/02/21 05:33 AM

John,
I actually think you are correct, hopefully some corporate folks that know guns (I.e. Beretta) will serve them well. I agree, the folks at Beretta have done a fine job in their London store with their line of accessories and clothing. Part of Hollands (and anyone else in London’s west end) problem is the cost of keeping the doors open ,hence the need for high priced clothing and accessories. That is an extremely “High Rent District” !!!!!! I am sure that is one of the reasons Rigby chose a more industrial area for their shop. Marc Newton has done a great job with Rigby and it’s great that you can go in the back and visit with the guys making your rifle or shotgun !!!!!!!!
Robert


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Rule303
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #349945 - 03/02/21 09:15 AM

The reason for my comment was the result of Beretta acquiring Tikka. They priced them up there with SAKO's, well above the Tikka $ value. It took the massive slump in sales, lack of income from the brand to force Beretta to drop the pricing to an exceptable limit. Will they over price the H&H. Yes I know it is a premium brand but it can still be over priced. Hoping the take over, will be a good thing but I will wait and see.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: Rule303]
      #349952 - 03/02/21 12:28 PM

Copied from a duplicate thread.

Beretta aquires 100% of Holland & Holland

G'Day Fella's,

As above and FYI; https://view.e.berettaaustralia.com.au/?...ac2814408f147bd

D'oh!
Homer

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: NitroX]
      #350023 - 04/02/21 05:51 PM

I saw some people moaning about plastic stocks being introduced into H&H by Beretta on facebook. I seriously doubt they would do anything like that.

I know or believe a lot of the stuff some people complain about at Rigby actually comes from Mauser, and seeking economies of scale or cost calculations.

Some of that might occur with Beretta??? But I think they will go for a top premium brand role. Many corporate groups use a pyramid structure, A base brand, volume sales. A mid range, and a premium range, where standards are not compromised and prices are high. Often different named brands are used for each. At least we do this for winery groups. High priced customers like to believe their seller is unique and above the po-lo-mo. Some blurring of the lines might happen. Customers are often unaware Holland & Holland and Tikka are made by the same group and possibly the same factories or at least some parts from the same factory. Barrels for example are often made for multi independent makers or bought from a competitor. Visit the VC or Heym factories and see where their barrels go to. In a corporate group it makes financial sense to consolidate the production of some parts.

I do think some changes will upset the purists. If I was a Beretta executive, I would try to increase rifle sales above say a dozen rifles a year. Bring in a "Big Game" model of some name, with .375 and .400 H&H's, plus .416 Rigby and some .458 calibre. Push a double rifle design. A medium "safari rifle" range. .300 H&H Mag, plus?


The PR blurb mentions Brexit as if that is relevant. Maybe having group companies across the border is advantgeous for some reason?

If you were a Beretta/H&H exec, which cartridges would you like to see included in line ups? Any unusual ones like a new bolt action .465 cartridge?

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: NitroX]
      #350049 - 05/02/21 12:47 PM

John,
I think you are correct. Beretta knows what they have with H&H there will be no “plastic stocks” . I think we can look forward to a marketing strategy similar to Rigby, They may come out with a line of rifles in say 300 H&H , .375 H&H and maybe even there .465 belted ? It will be priced so the serious shooter can afford one (not unlike the Highland Stalker). Then they may bring back the “Dominion grade” doubles in just a few cal. And then they will always keep their “Royals” for the high end folks. They could also come up with a more realistically priced line of safari wear. The trick will be to sell enough guns to keep the doors open in their High Rent District.
I’d love to see a Dominion offered in the .240 Rimmed version. Just my 2 cents.
Robert


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tinker
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #350051 - 05/02/21 01:20 PM

I'm here wondering what the twenty-first century "reasonable" price is for a Dominion

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3DogMike
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: tinker]
      #350052 - 05/02/21 03:07 PM

Quote:

I'm here wondering what the twenty-first century "reasonable" price is for a Dominion



".....If you have to ask"

- Mike

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DarylS
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: tinker]
      #350053 - 05/02/21 03:10 PM

Quote:

I'm here wondering what the twenty-first century "reasonable" price is for a Dominion




You mean 22 century, Tinker?

Mike's answer probably applies here, too.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: DarylS]
      #350071 - 05/02/21 09:41 PM

Reasonably priced? Ha ha.

I don't know if it will become reasonably priced for mere mortals.

When I visited London and the gun shops, I visited H&H, Purdey, Beretta and I think it is Cogswell & Harrison(?) - same street as Beretta. The "new" Rigby was not in existence then, the Pasa Nobles Californian monstrosities were still being made, and Mark here on NE was still infringing on the Rigby trademark. I visited him as well.

H&H staff were friendly and welcoming. I couldn't afford anything even as a souveneir there. A shirt? Not at three to four times the same sort of shirt at Barbour or Beretta! I thought about a gun rack toast rack in silver, but not at GBP800 ors oemthing like that. Maybe half that?

(Supposedly a lot of the London H&H gunroom staff had been laid off in recent years??? True or not???)

Purdey were not friendly at all. Some old fart salesman, hardly would say hello ...

Cogswell & Harrison (?), I think they were? Will do search. They were decently priced, even the guns. Staff were friendly. And the assorted goods were decent as well. They were doing their "end of year City of London" selling spree from bankers and brokers bonuses at the time. Get a decent brokers bonus, buy a nice shotgun.

Beretta were very friendly. I probably spent $2000 there on all sorts of non guns or ammo stuff. Good value for London and stuff one can not get here easily. Had good chat with the Manager.

Now if you can sell a shirt for GBP150 or 200, why would you sell it for GBP55. If Purdey can sell a leather trim canvas satchel for GBP800, like the one I have in far better lambs leather which I paid A$350 ( a while ago) why would you discount your name?

Discounting for premium goods destroys the brand value. If you can sell to the rich who want the brand name and will pay for it, and you can sell enough to make a profit and sales well enough to provide a commercial return why would you destroy your brand value?

Beretta can fill the mid price range, plus some stuff and guns at higher prices. H&H can fill the top of the pyramid niche.

Providing they can sell a volume enough to make it worthwhile.

Safari wear? Realistically how many British go on hunting safaris now? I think Simon Barr of Tweed Media mentioned maybe 400 persons now once? And these people can also buy safari clothes on the internet from the USA as well.

BUT as I have said, I think they will or should look a ranges of firearms, made to a standard, bur not costing $250,000 ie a double rifle, or $50,000 or whatever (?) they sell bolt actions for.

People harp on about the Rigny bolt action rifle prices. The simple fact is, if they can sell them at those prices, they will. Being upset because people not buying the rifles at those prices, and complaining about the prices won't change anything.

Vintage Rigby's back in the vintage days were also priced well outside the price ranges normal people could afford.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (05/02/21 10:06 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: NitroX]
      #350072 - 05/02/21 09:51 PM

On social media lots and lots of the discussions are very negative to the Beretta purchase. Like the takeover will destroy a great "British maker and brand". Well it has been owned by French poofs and pansies selling handbags and ladies designer wear, and selling perfume and wines for many tears. And Karl Lagerfeld has been dead for a while as well. I think ti has already declined big time. Certainly one hardly hears of Holland & Holland newly made firearms hardly at all in recent years.

I think a gun making business, one of the oldest in Europe today, HAS to be a plus.

Some of the comments are about the lack of service at Beretta. I don't know anything about this? Never dealt with them other than by retail.

Some of the comments was Beretta doesn't make anything quality??? Surely that is wrong. Beretta makes some very nice and very expensive double rifles, and I thought has a great reputation for under and over shotguns? I certainly would have bought one or more of theirs in the past, if they were affordable for me.

Yes Beretta makes semi autos. Italians and many other shooters like semia autos. God forbid they ever make a H&H semi auto though!!!

I think a lot of social media is filled by people who are NOT customers for high end firearms. And their comments are worth the value of tyre kickers.

One of our members on one group, he is a real purchaser, made a comment about "all the uniformed comments" on the group. Lots of facebook shooting groups are very low value. Many of the fbers probably have never even heard of a double rifle. "Is that some sort of shotgun James Bond uses in Skyfall?" was a typical comment back then.

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John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: NitroX]
      #350078 - 05/02/21 10:05 PM

Quote:

Well it has been owned by French poofs and pansies ...




I can speak plainly on NE. Would get me banned on faecesbook.

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John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Marrakai
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: NitroX]
      #350079 - 06/02/21 12:09 AM

Yeah, Beretta are obviously going to stuff the brand with their rubbish attitude to quality!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udIHSIawdLA



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bwanabobftw
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: Marrakai]
      #350269 - 11/02/21 05:55 AM

Beautiful Guns, thanks for posting.

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #350270 - 11/02/21 06:00 AM

I meant that comment for the next topic down. “Pair of Hollands”
My bad
Robert


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: Marrakai]
      #350285 - 11/02/21 02:10 PM

Quote:

Yeah, Beretta are obviously going to stuff the brand with their rubbish attitude to quality!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=udIHSIawdLA






Beautiful mate.

I remember seeing an imported Beretta at the importers once, I think it was close to exceeding a hundred thousand for some well heeled Aussie customer.

Why on Earth did they choose Hillbilly music for the background music!!! All the beautiful Italian operas and music, arias etc and they choose banjos!!!

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Marrakai
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: NitroX]
      #350313 - 12/02/21 03:50 PM

Quote:

Why on Earth did they choose Hillbilly music



That's just to get you in the mood for "plucking" a 455 EELL off the gunrack at your nearest Beretta outlet!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: Marrakai]
      #350316 - 12/02/21 03:57 PM

Quote:

Why on Earth did they choose Hillbilly music for the background music!!!




Its because those fancy pancy Berettas sure have a purty muzzle.

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John aka NitroX

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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: NitroX]
      #350321 - 12/02/21 04:50 PM

LOL - that music is because they see most of the clientele coming from the States.

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Daryl


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: DarylS]
      #350327 - 12/02/21 07:54 PM

Quote:

LOL - that music is because they see most of the clientele coming from the States.




Or a USA based website.

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John aka NitroX

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: NitroX]
      #368493 - 21/08/22 06:29 PM

I had forgotten Beretta purchased Holland & Holland.

Any news since? How is it caring? Quality maintained or increasing? Image maintained or collapsed? Sales roaring, new models? Or the old tiny sales volumes?

One thing a quality prestige brand like Holland & Holland needs within a corporate group is a go getter innovative brand leader/CEO. Like Marc Newton has been at Rigby in the Mauser/L & O Group.

Must have a look at H&H again. Haven't heard anything recently?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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jvw
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: NitroX]
      #368558 - 23/08/22 01:05 PM

During a recent trip to Germany I was told that Beretta had acquired Chapuis, RWS and Norma as well. They seem to be assembling brand names and factories by the score.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: jvw]
      #368561 - 23/08/22 06:10 PM

Quote:

During a recent trip to Germany I was told that Beretta had acquired Chapuis, RWS and Norma as well. They seem to be assembling brand names and factories by the score.




So Beretta owns:

Beretta;
Sako;
Tikka;
Holland & Holland;
Chapuis;
RWS; &
Norma.

Any others?

The Luke & Ormiston - L & O Group owns:

Mauser;
Rigby;
Blazer;
Sauer;
Steyr; &
SIG.

Any others?

Two substantial firearms and munitions owning groups.

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John aka NitroX

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jvw
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: NitroX]
      #368601 - 24/08/22 10:12 AM

If I'm not mistaken Beretta owns Burris as well.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: jvw]
      #368612 - 24/08/22 06:38 PM

Quote:

If I'm not mistaken Beretta owns Burris as well.




Idiot be surprised as Beretta seems to be buying gun companies and associated supplies such as ammunition.

Some scope companies are part of multi optic manufacturers not just binoculars, scopes, spotting scopes. But also all sorts of other optics needs.

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Waidmannsheil
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Re: Beretta Holding Acquires Holland & Holland [Re: NitroX]
      #368618 - 24/08/22 07:00 PM

They also own Steiner and Burris.

Matt.

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