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Rule303
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Postman]
      #333304 - 11/10/19 08:41 AM

Postman, I am not doubting what you say at all. I have taken two Elephant and one Cape Buffalo with 416 Hydros. All one shot kills. The Buff was not quite square on from the front about 50mts and ran about 50mts. Took the top of his heart after going through the first rib, ended up just shy of the skin in his rump after going through the pelvic bone. Some riveting but a straight line.

My PH on my first trip had shot a Buff with a 458Lott and Hydro. Went in through the brain, out the neck, reentered and through the spine ended up in down the back somewhere.

The Elephants were brain shots and projectiles not recovered. I like the hydros for a couple of reasons. They travel in a straight direction even if hitting something before hitting the animal and create a bigger wound channel than other solid type bullets. I will now in all but one instance I know of.

Some monometals are bore riders. That is the band is grove size and the rest if bore size. Some are grove size with the groves of the projectile machined into it, if this makes sense. The bore riders create less pressure all things being even.

Postman I would write to Woodleigh and send a pic of the hydro. They are always interested in analyzing what happens with their product.


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Postman
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Rule303]
      #333323 - 11/10/19 09:55 PM

Hi Rule303:

I will keep using the Hydros as I don’t think my limited experience is enough to pass firm judgement. I’ve seen a few pics of them here on the NE forum retrieved from game and other than the rifling marks, the only deformation sometimes evident was a slight bending of the lip of the nose cup. This slight bending of the lip was also evident in my other hydro retrieved from the inside of the off shoulder and was something I would fully expect to see in any event.

Your description of bore rider is in alignment with my understanding of the design.

As to the straight line penetration, yes, it is entirely possible that my one Hydro in question entered at a quartering away presentation and ended up forward in the neck. Things happen very fast with a dry land hippo heading for water at full tilt, and my sample size of one riveted and bent bullet is too small to draw any firm conclusions. I do feel however that the Hydros are not over stressing my rifle barrels, whereas other solids may not be so kind and this is a good thing!

Either way, a hunter can’t go too far wrong with a Hydro or a Barnes banded solid in a good modern double.

Edited by Postman (11/10/19 10:51 PM)


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: CptCurl]
      #333324 - 11/10/19 11:41 PM

I posted this on October 24, 2009:

Quote:

In reading this thread two things are immediately apparent. First, 9.3x57 is not a double rifle owner, but he should be. Second, 9.3x57 is from Missouri. To believe in the existence of OSR he must be shown.

I suggest this test. It will be 9.3’s task to get Barnes to agree to participate. We can hammer out all the details once they are on board.

First both Barnes and 9.3 deposit with me the full cost of a new Chapuis double rifle in 9.3x74R. I will place the funds in escrow in my professional trust account.

Next, procure a brand new Chapuis double rifle in 9.3x74R from Champlin Arms, an authorized distributor. The rifle will be paid for using funds from the escrow deposit.

Third, load 200 rounds of ammunition using brand new brass, an appropriate powder charge known not to produce excess pressure, and topped with the old style "X" bullets.

Lastly, fire the rounds in the Chapuis with both 9.3 and Barnes' representative present. Carefully avoid over-heating the barrels, and clean them every 20 rounds. This should be a fun day of shooting.

The entire test is to be conducted under the supervision of J. J. Perodeau, and I suppose it all shall occur in or near Enid, OK. 400NitroExpress will be invited to attend, and I will be invited also. We may help you shoot up the ammo if asked.

J. J. will carefully inspect the barrels when new, before the test, and then again following the test. He will determine whether any OSR or other damage has occurred. I don't think his qualifications for the task can be questioned.

If in the end the barrels visibly show OSR or other damage then Barnes pays for the rifle and all the ammo and posts an appropriate confession on its website. Barnes gets to keep the rifle. 9.3 gets his money back from my escrow deposit.

If no OSR or other damage is visible, then 9.3 pays for the rifle and all ammo, and he keeps the rifle. Barnes gets its money back from the escrow deposit. In that event 9.3 becomes the newest member of DRSS. It will be a truly great step for him.

In either event, the occasion will be reported in minute detail here on NE.com.

Before this goes any further, let me say I am a strong believer in OSR. I think the chance that 9.3 will have to buy the rifle is practically nil.

Rod, you have been in contact with Barnes. You get them to agree to these terms, and we're on. What say ye?

Curl






The above quote is a challenge I posted to this very thread nearly 10 years ago, on October 24, 2009. You can go back and find it like I just did. I still think it is a fair challenge. There was no response to my challenge. I suppose Barnes didn't want to take the risk.

Notice that the challenge involved the old Barnes "X" bullets. Those are the culprits that put spiral marks on a lot of double rifle barrels.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Postman
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: CptCurl]
      #333325 - 12/10/19 12:37 AM



Dear Mr Curl:


Reading your post immediately previous to this response just caused me to spit my coffee out all over my new silk tie and custom tailored shirt and the pants of my expensive favourite suit!!!!!

You sir, have given me a great big belly laugh!!!!!

I am NOT from Missouri, but as the southern Baptist preacher did declare: “Ahhhh Beeeleeeve!”

Best,

Postman

Edited by Postman (12/10/19 12:42 AM)


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3DogMike
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Postman]
      #333326 - 12/10/19 12:45 AM

Quote:



Dear Mr Curl:
........ to this response just caused me to spit my coffee out all over my new silk tie and custom tailored shirt a.......

Postman



Let’s just hope it was not a nice Jerry Garcia silk tie!

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: CptCurl]
      #333347 - 12/10/19 08:29 AM

That was a good one, too.

I don't dis-believe in OSR, but I have yet to be shown the actual mechanism that causes it. By that I don't mean "hard bullets", I mean how a "brass bullet" actually passes the length of a barrel causing the lands to impress outward evenly and produce the "swirl effect" on the outside.

I did contact Barnes and I forget all the but IIRC, they were willing to test the theory on a barrel turned to "double" diameter.

BUT AS FAR AS I KNOW, THEY NEVER DID IT.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Postman
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #333348 - 12/10/19 09:54 AM

The mechanism? i.e., as in a science based explanation as to what causes OSR? I too would like to understand it as would many others I’m sure.

Maybe an oversized hard bullet somehow “irons” the bore and displaces metal when the elastic properties of the barrel steel is overcome or exceeded. Maybe because the barrel lands are not able to displace the bullet material because there just isn’t enough space/time to displace bullet material and all things being equal, the barrel loses the battle? Or maybe it has nothing directly to do with the hardness of the bullet as surely high grade super strong modern barrel steel is far and away harder than the brass or bronze bullets with no stress grooves that seem to be the catalyst for this anomaly. Maybe the super high pressure wave that follows the bullet as it travels down the bore causes it?

Who knows???

Certainly an explanation as to “why” it happens would be much appreciated..... In lieu of that, I am smart enough to recognize some of the factors that come together to create it and to avoid it like the plague.... once burned, twice shy.

Interestingly enough, for the longest time, nobody knew what caused chamber ringing until some French dude decided to mess with things and set up elaborate controlled experiments with a pressure vessel. Now any reloader with half a brain knows not to stoke a large cavernous case with overly light charges of slow powder and they know to ensure that fillers are used in conjunction with reduced loads and appropriate powders. Chamber ringing happens due to a pressure wave of expanding gasses violently colliding with the bullet base..... who would have thought that expanding gasses could move chamber steel like that?

Edited by Postman (12/10/19 10:05 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Postman]
      #333349 - 12/10/19 09:59 AM

OSR might be the "cause" of grooved mono-bullets & not only by Barnes. Seems to me, the North-Forks were grooved from their inception though, ahead of the Barnes TSX's and banded solids.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Postman]
      #333353 - 12/10/19 11:10 AM

Quote:

The mechanism? i.e., as in a science based explanation as to what causes OSR? I too would like to understand it as would many others I’m sure.

Maybe an oversized hard bullet somehow “irons” the bore and displaces metal when the elastic properties of the barrel steel is overcome or exceeded. Maybe because the barrel lands are not able to displace the bullet material because there just isn’t enough space/time to displace bullet material and all things being equal, the barrel loses the battle? Or maybe it has nothing directly to do with the hardness of the bullet as surely high grade super strong modern barrel steel is far and away harder than the brass or bronze bullets with no stress grooves that seem to be the catalyst for this anomaly. Maybe the super high pressure wave that follows the bullet as it travels down the bore causes it?

Who knows???

Certainly an explanation as to “why” it happens would be much appreciated..... In lieu of that, I am smart enough to recognize some of the factors that come together to create it and to avoid it like the plague.... once burned, twice shy.

Interestingly enough, for the longest time, nobody knew what caused chamber ringing until some French dude decided to mess with things and set up elaborate controlled experiments with a pressure vessel. Now any reloader with half a brain knows not to stoke a large cavernous case with overly light charges of slow powder and they know to ensure that fillers are used in conjunction with reduced loads and appropriate powders. Chamber ringing happens due to a pressure wave of expanding gasses violently colliding with the bullet base..... who would have thought that expanding gasses could move chamber steel like that?




Ditto.

For example, a brass mallet can BEND a strip or plate of steel place over the jaws of an open vise. But a brass blade cannot cut steel. So the mechanism must be something approaching the former and absolutely not having anything to do with the latter. The problem Daryl and I tried to present a long time ago was how a brass bullet could pass thru and cause an EVEN displacement of land metal when it would seem the rifling would...get ready for it...CUT...grooves in the brass bullet within the first inch or several of the barrel. Now, if the lands do not CUT the brass bullet, then the displacement might occur by the bending mechanism we see above.

So..................................

Would round cut or otherwise rounded {worn, corroded, etc} lands then be subject to pressure that would cause the collapse of the barrel walls a la the bending mechanism of the brass hammer/sheet steel?

I don't know. It would be interesting to find out if NEW {sharp-land} barrels are LESS susceptible to OSR than old {or rounded-land} barrels.

Quote:

OSR might be the "cause" of grooved mono-bullets & not only by Barnes. Seems to me, the North-Forks were grooved from their inception though, ahead of the Barnes TSX's and banded solids.




Ding-Ding-Ding!!

Daryl always comes thru.

It was the North forks I could send thru my sizer.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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Rule303
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DarylS]
      #333368 - 12/10/19 08:18 PM

There are a couple of south African bullet manufacturers that make banded type solids. From what I can gather they use a different material to the Hydros. I'll google them when i have some time.

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tinker
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Rule303]
      #333371 - 12/10/19 10:58 PM

GS Custom is another of the smaller builders of driving band mono solids. They started in '97


http://www.gscustomusa.com/fn.html

Here is their South Africa website, the home of the business.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/12about.html

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Postman
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: tinker]
      #333373 - 13/10/19 04:06 AM

Quote:

“I don't know. It would be interesting to find out if NEW {sharp-land} barrels are LESS susceptible to OSR than old {or rounded-land} barrels. ”



NOPE!!! The OSR I personally experienced was with a brand spanking NEW Weatherby MK V in .378 Weatherby. Hardly a worn out soft steel equipped withering flower of a rifle....

I really think OSR results from high pressure caused by a bullet that does not allow the barrel lands to properly displace the bullet material, either through or due to a combination of hardness, size and design. It is generally desirable to use non jacketed lead bullets oversized by 0.001 or 0.002, and these bullets do not cause OSR.

In the case of monometal solids, they are far harder than plain lead bullets, or gilded jacket bullets. My hypothesis is that the barrel lands simply cannot displace the monometal bullet material appropriately and or quickly enough and maybe an overly high pressure wave follows the bullet on it’s path all the way down the tube, displacing barrel steel all along the way. This doesn't seem to happen with monometal bullets equipped with stress relief grooves, and following the hypothesis above, they simply do not cause high pressures of examples with no stress grooves......

Without an elaborate test scenario to back up or test out the hypothesis, we may never know. Suffice to understand the Barnes X without stress relief grooves will almost certainly bugger your barrel.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Postman]
      #333397 - 13/10/19 10:00 PM

Quote:

This doesn't seem to happen with monometal bullets equipped with stress relief grooves, and following the hypothesis above, they simply do not cause high pressures of examples with no stress grooves......





I wouldn't rely on "grooves" in the full calibre width of the bullet one little bit. Instead the best monometal bullet examples have RAISED bands with the 'shank' being sub calibre. The rifling can groove the rainsed bands without excessive pressure or displacement. The grooves hardly change it at all. My hypothesis.

Interesting you observed the OSR on a bolt action Weatherby. Usually the reports of it are on much thinner barrelled multi barrel firearms.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Postman
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: NitroX]
      #333399 - 13/10/19 11:39 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This doesn't seem to happen with monometal bullets equipped with stress relief grooves, and following the hypothesis above, they simply do not cause high pressures of examples with no stress grooves......





I wouldn't rely on "grooves" in the full calibre width of the bullet one little bit. Instead the best monometal bullet examples have RAISED bands with the 'shank' being sub calibre. The rifling can groove the rainsed bands without excessive pressure or displacement. The grooves hardly change it at all. My hypothesis.

Interesting you observed the OSR on a bolt action Weatherby. Usually the reports of it are on much thinner barrelled multi barrel firearms.




Yes John, you are correct and have sharpened the point quite accurately. Bore rider mono-metals are the ONLY bullet one would want to use if one is to use monometals. Simply carving a few grooves in a full caliber width bullet would give me no comfort whatsoever.

Yes, my first rifle bigger than a small bore (aka typical North American 30 cal love affair, aka .30-06, .30-30, .303, and a 7mm Rem mag thrown in for fun) was that brand spanking new .378 Weatherby and yes, it died a horrible and premature death due to OSR. Weatherby used nothing but forged rifling barrels at that time. It had incredible deep deep blueing and gorgeous pimped out beautifully figured wood that would make the most hardened person cry. And I killed it. I bought it in October, joined my first gun club in December of that year so I'd have a place to shoot it, and by January it was royally fucked with OSR. The only good thing that came out of it was that the gun club I joined because of it, started me on 20+ years of formal competitive shooting of all sorts.

Edited by Postman (13/10/19 11:41 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Postman]
      #333403 - 14/10/19 12:19 AM

SAD! Big gun to shoot at a range! .378 Weatherby. Ouch. :O

I assume there was no functional problems with the rifle after the OSR? Other than appearance?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Rule303
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: tinker]
      #333417 - 14/10/19 09:15 AM

Quote:

GS Custom is another of the smaller builders of driving band mono solids. They started in '97


http://www.gscustomusa.com/fn.html

Here is their South Africa website, the home of the business.

http://www.gsgroup.co.za/12about.html




They are one of the companies I was trying to remember. Also Impala Bullets, Peregrine and Rhino Bullets.


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Rule303
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: NitroX]
      #333418 - 14/10/19 09:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:

This doesn't seem to happen with monometal bullets equipped with stress relief grooves, and following the hypothesis above, they simply do not cause high pressures of examples with no stress grooves......





I wouldn't rely on "grooves" in the full calibre width of the bullet one little bit. Instead the best monometal bullet examples have RAISED bands with the 'shank' being sub calibre. The rifling can groove the rainsed bands without excessive pressure or displacement. The grooves hardly change it at all. My hypothesis.

Interesting you observed the OSR on a bolt action Weatherby. Usually the reports of it are on much thinner barrelled multi barrel firearms.




John I read an article from Barnes when they first brought out the banded bullets. It claimed the groves were cut into the full sized-grove sized - bullet to allow the displaced material from the lands to fill into. Like you I would have no real confidence in this.

I must add that I can not remember moist of that article so it may well have gone on to say that was a trail only set up. Can anybody tell me if the current Barnes X bullets are bore riders or full size.


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jvw
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Rule303]
      #333425 - 14/10/19 05:38 PM

The other SA manufacturer of banded solids is Dzombo. They actually supply the bullets used by the Kruger National Park rangers. A lot of Dzombo's are used on buff, ele, hippo and other critters every year.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Rule303]
      #333427 - 14/10/19 05:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

This doesn't seem to happen with monometal bullets equipped with stress relief grooves, and following the hypothesis above, they simply do not cause high pressures of examples with no stress grooves......





I wouldn't rely on "grooves" in the full calibre width of the bullet one little bit. Instead the best monometal bullet examples have RAISED bands with the 'shank' being sub calibre. The rifling can groove the rainsed bands without excessive pressure or displacement. The grooves hardly change it at all. My hypothesis.

Interesting you observed the OSR on a bolt action Weatherby. Usually the reports of it are on much thinner barrelled multi barrel firearms.




John I read an article from Barnes when they first brought out the banded bullets. It claimed the groves were cut into the full sized-grove sized - bullet to allow the displaced material from the lands to fill into. Like you I would have no real confidence in this.

I must add that I can not remember moist of that article so it may well have gone on to say that was a trail only set up. Can anybody tell me if the current Barnes X bullets are bore riders or full size.




NOTE to qualify my stated opinion on not relying on the grooves. The comment was limited to use on non raised banded monometal bullets in thin walled barrels such as might be on a double rifle, combination rifle, some single shots etc.

On MOST bolt action and modern rifles with thicker barrels and good modern steels, they probably are not an issue.

I've used some of these eg Barnes X, without an issue in bolt action rifles with thicker barrels.

However it should be noted the earlier comment where OSR was observed to occur on a Weatherby .378 bolt action rifle.

Personally I do like good old lead core projectiles on good controlled expansion design. These may not be an option in all legal jurisdictions nowadays due to the idiocy of some lawmakers.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Postman
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: NitroX]
      #333442 - 14/10/19 11:02 PM

Quote:

SAD! Big gun to shoot at a range! .378 Weatherby. Ouch. :O

I assume there was no functional problems with the rifle after the OSR? Other than appearance?




I was much younger then with dreams of Africa dancing about my brain - I was and am a big Capstick fan. Gotta start somewhere, and getting a suitable rifle seemed to be a good first step. Don’t know where else I’d have shot any of my rifles? Maybe in a Walmart parking lot in downtown Toronto? I don’t live on a farm in the middle of nowhere, and unless I’m willing to drive 5+ hours directly north, there is nowhere to shoot around my home. Even going north, one just can’t go blazing away without Smokey the Bear showing up and grilling you and putting you on the spot to prove you’re not poaching. Thus, go to a range or don’t shoot. THAT is sad, but it is reality.

Anyhow, the rifle was functional afterwards, but my level of trust in it’s viability as safe to shoot was disrupted, not to mention my absolute horror at the destruction of it’s appearance. I did not and do not know if OSR destroys a rifle barrel integrity or if one can continue to shoot it until the barrel is worn out or shot out. In any event, my sense of self preservation suggests to me that firing what might cause grievous harm to my well being is not a terribly bright idea.

Edited by Postman (14/10/19 11:17 PM)


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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Postman]
      #333446 - 15/10/19 03:31 AM

If the law on rifles is the same as when I lived back there, nothing South of Peterborough, Ontario seems to me, over 6.5mm, hence the "drive North".

Too, it's all farm country & you can just about see your neighbours in every direction, but a lot less daily farms than when I was living there.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Postman
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: DarylS]
      #333456 - 15/10/19 07:20 AM

Quote:

If the law on rifles is the same as when I lived back there, nothing South of Peterborough, Ontario seems to me, over 6.5mm, hence the "drive North".

Too, it's all farm country & you can just about see your neighbours in every direction, but a lot less daily farms than when I was living there.




Thats correct Daryl..... Nothing over .275” south of the French and Mattawa Rivers, so that means anything less than a .270 Winchester If and only IF you have some land to shoot it on..... It’s pretty much all private with crown land difficult to find or access without a major excursion northwards..... The caliber restriction really relates back to the game laws more than anything. I have a small game license and there’s usually something in season, whether it be crows or rabbits, so there is a bit of freedom, but any caliber of substance is an issue as is land to shoot on.

So, gun clubs are where we go and I shoot whatever I like from .22 to .500 Nitro... It’s my shoulder to do with as I please, The reality is that if you don’t get regular practice with your field guns, you will not be as sharp with it as you should when you do get opportunity to be in the field with it.


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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Postman]
      #333457 - 15/10/19 08:38 AM

Why, guys?

Do they really think a 140 grain 6.5 is safer or has less range than a 180 grain .30-06? Or is it something else?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #333461 - 15/10/19 12:22 PM

Had to so with .303 and '06 hard ball bouncing around the farm land I assume. I guess 6.5x55 FMJ stuff is OK?

I'd forgotten about the actual calibre, I thought the regs. used to say nothing larger than .270, but of course, the .270 shoots a .277" bullet, but I guess it's OK.

I used a 6.5 Rem. Mag. for wood chucks in Middlesex and Oxford counties when I was a kid (post high school). Worked a treat on them. In those days, it was dairy country, with lots of grazing fields abounding in ground hogs.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Postman
.375 member


Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #333467 - 15/10/19 09:20 PM

Quote:

Why, guys?

Do they really think a 140 grain 6.5 is safer or has less range than a 180 grain .30-06? Or is it something else?




It doesn’t matter much what I think. Because it’s a government derived regulation is your first indication that it makes no sense whatsoever, but Daryl is right. It has everything to do with worries about ricochets etc. The farms here are typically and on average 100 acres each. Some a little bigger, some a little smaller. The laws go back to the days where small high velocity bullets were much more frangible than they are today, and the ubiquitous and extremely common in large quantities army surplus .303 etc was mostly FMJ. High population density farm land and high powered rifles are not a great mix. There is ongoing argument about whether a .270 Winchester is legal to shoot in southern Ontario, but because it is .277”, it does indeed exceed the legal limit of .275”. The law was written to state that “in southern Ontario, it is not permitted to use a caliber of .275” or greater to hunt small game.”. Then in next section it goes on to detail what types of firearms are legal to hunt big game in all the counties in southern Ontario - mostly bow, muzzle loaders and shotgun only seasons with high powered centre-fire rifles mostly excluded.

Long story short, one cannot go about firing centre fire rifles as one pleases in southern Ontario. Need practice with that .500 Nitro Express? Sure, then join a gun club. I don’t like it, but it is what it is, so off to the range I go to piss off all the fudds shooting their .30-30s, and the target guys shooting their target .22 rifles. I shoot what I like and I like big bores. I want to hunt with them and I question the marksmanship capabilities of a man who dusts their rifle off once a year, scrapes the old mold off the lead tip with a fingernail, shoots one or two rounds off a rest to see if it hits a rock on out yonder, and calls it good for deer season. I firmly believe that one MUST practice practice practice in order to achieve and maintain a reasonable level of marksmanship with whatever a man chooses to shoot.

Edited by Postman (15/10/19 09:25 PM)


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