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buckstix
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Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action
      #315421 - 18/04/18 10:03 PM

Rare Unusual Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action by Miller & Val. Greiss

Hello All,

Although posted on another site, this one is so different that I thought to share it here also. I just acquired this Most Unusual Double Rifle at this past weekend's Rock Island Auction. This is absolutely the strangest double in my collection. Its maker is Miller and Val. Greiss, a well known German maker of some very fine and elaborate rifles and shotguns. I had never before seen a Martini style action with this type of external hammer, let-alone in a "double" Martini configuration with "double" external hammers - except, there was a similar rifle by the same maker, with the same provenance, and the same action, that appeared in Rock Island's Dec. 3, 2017 Auction. It sold for considerable more than this one, and I soon dropped out of the bidding. However, we had a blizzard here in the Central States and I think that cut-down on the auction bidders. Lucky for me because this time I was successful at about "half" the price of the one that sold last December.

Rifle's weight is 8-1/4 pounds with a LOP of 13-5/8". I'm guessing the short raised dovetail platform was for some type of early scope mounting. I'll be looking for one of those.

There are no markings on the rifle except as described in the Auction listing. I've shown them below.

Although the auction listed the caliber as 450 Short BPE, I could not find a cartridge with this name. However, a chamber cast matches "exactly" a cartridge that is called the "45 New South Wales." (dies from C-4 are already on the way) The chamber cast also showed 4-groove Henry Henry Rifling. In addition, the bores are absolutely MINT and Mirror bright. Cases for the 450 Short BPE are easily formed from 450-400 brass, shortened to 2.5" and opened-up to 45 caliber. The last picture shows the 450 Short BPE cartridge along-side a 45/70 cartridge for comparison. The 450 Short BPE case is actually much larger in diameter, and its longer. Its capacity is actually closer to that of a 45/120.

Note the tiny screw tucked under the cheek-piece. (see picture 9) I removed it, and found it did nothing. It simply pluged-into a neatly drilled hole. Could this be some kind of game counter?

The only markings: on the bottom of the right barrel are the last 4 digits of the serial number - and a number 7 on the bottom barrel rib. A "Crown V" appears on both barrels. The only place the full serial number appears is on the butt=plate.


























--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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Huvius
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315422 - 18/04/18 11:28 PM

Very interesting rifle there Buck!
Double set triggers too.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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casper50
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Huvius]
      #315423 - 18/04/18 11:48 PM

Nice one. Mick Shepard has a double rifle drop action on his site. It isn't a martini based action but still interesting. It's been there a very long time.


https://imgur.com/a/kUHwl


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: casper50]
      #315424 - 19/04/18 01:18 AM

That is interesting, and certainly different.

The ctg. - very heavy, thick brass it appears, compared to the .45/70. This one might be easily turned due to it's thickness?

How long is the case and do you have any ballistics? The single sight blade, seems to indicate a light weight bullet and short range. Not sure about the non-adjustable tang mounted peep sight.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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93x64mm
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315434 - 19/04/18 07:42 AM

Certainly a rare bird Buckstix!
Also the cartridge too, never heard of a .45NSW?


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: 93x64mm]
      #315436 - 19/04/18 08:04 AM

Quote:

Very interesting rifle there Buck!
Double set triggers too.



Hello Huvius,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, each trigger has a "set" feature. I discovered long ago, you don't set "both" triggers at once.
.

Quote:

Nice one. Mick Shepard has a double rifle drop action on his site. It isn't a martini based action but still interesting. It's been there a very long time.



Hello casper50,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, a very nice rifle.
.

Quote:

That is interesting, and certainly different.

The ctg. - very heavy, thick brass it appears, compared to the .45/70. This one might be easily turned due to it's thickness?

How long is the case and do you have any ballistics? The single sight blade, seems to indicate a light weight bullet and short range. Not sure about the non-adjustable tang mounted peep sight.



Hello Daryl_S,

Thanks for the reply.

The brass case has the same thickness as the 45/70. Photo-Shop makes it look thicker. The case is 2-1/2" long. I've been able to find ballistic info from a Historian in Germany - 1450fps - 1700fps with a 385g bullet. The final load will depend on how the rifle regulates. This is NOT a short range rifle. The Rib mounted site is an alternative to the tang peep sight. The rib mounted site is to be used in low light conditions. The tang peep site is fully adjustable for both windage and elevation.


Quote:

Certainly a rare bird Buckstix!
Also the cartridge too, never heard of a .45NSW?



Hello 93x64mm,

Thanks for the reply.

Apparently the German designation for the cartridge is 11.6x65R. Its a brass case version of the original foil-wound 45 New South Wales cartridge that was used in a Martini-Henry rifle.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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3DogMike
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: 93x64mm]
      #315437 - 19/04/18 08:07 AM

The Hoyem book “The History and Development of Small Arms Ammunition”, Volume 3, British Sporting Rifle Cartridges mentions this cartridge on page 77.

He shows 3 examples of the cartridge, with express paper patch bullet as well as a longer NSW type lead bullet.

The edited Hoyem quote follows:
“These early cartridges have the .626” rim, .....(describes rolled brass case)......etc.
Bullet is probably the 270-grain express, charge unknown but likely 70 to 75 grains.
A military version with 480-grain bullet was loaded for the Alexander Henry falling-block single shot police carbine used in New South Wales, Australia during the 1870-1880 period. A .450-2 1/2” Boxer cartridge was used in one of the Westley Richards arms submitted for the 1866-1869 Breech Loading Rifle Trials.

Rare & Interesting for sure,
Mike

--------------------
“On the Western Slope of Colorado, USA"
&
"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon


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DoubleD
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: 3DogMike]
      #315441 - 19/04/18 09:29 AM

I don't think I would call that A Martini action.

I would be more inclined because of the hammer striker set-up to call it Peabody derivation.

Martini's system has to do with the cocking action and how the lever functions the action.

I would like to see the insides and how that lever operates the action.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: DoubleD]
      #315444 - 19/04/18 12:10 PM

Hello 3DogMike,

Thanks for the reply.

I appreciate the detailed info about the cartridge. I wish I could find my books so I can see the pictures. I haven't seen my books in years. BTW, I sent you a PM.


Hello DoubleD,

Thanks for the reply.

I'll stick with the description "Exposed Hammer Martini" as referenced by one of the German Gun Collector Forum members. Francotte also made a Martini Sporting Rook rifle with an external exposed "in-line" hammer, as opposed to the side-strike hammer system of the Peabody. It really makes little difference what its called, Besides, this one's side profile "looks" more like a Martini than a Peobody.

The under lever extensions engage the breech blocks similar to the Martini action, and the extractor function is also the same.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DoubleD
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315450 - 19/04/18 09:07 PM

It has become traditional to refer to rear hinged rotating block guns as Martini’s. While that is a testament to Martini’s work, it is also a misnomer.

Those of us who study action type and the various ways different models operate know that a number of different people had their hands inside. It is well known that the hinge block far precedes both Peabody and Martini.

Martini’s Patent had to do with how the lever functioned the action. That is why I said I would like to see inside. How does the lever connect to the block and function.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: DoubleD]
      #315456 - 19/04/18 11:04 PM

Hello DoubleD

Thanks for the reply.

I really don't care to get too deep into the technical aspects of the Martini Action Patent in my post. I'm just announcing the joy of my new rare acquisition. Besides, most gun people accept, and can understand the meaning (correct or not) of the description "Exposed Hammer Martini Action".

As you requested, I have shown inside the action with the right block removed. You can see the lever ear(s) that engage the breech block, and the extractor(s) pivoting at the chamber(s) and you can see the milled area of the block where the lever engages and pivots the block(s) open and closed.

As you can see, I use lots on grease on my Martini actions.

pictures below show:

1. lever down, action open
2. right block removed, lever up, action closed
3. right block removed, lever down, action open
4. right block removed






--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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lancaster
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315462 - 20/04/18 01:23 AM

if its a german made gun and the cartridge is a 450 BPE base you have a double rifle in 11,6x60R 450
https://naboje.org/node/4233

or 11,6x65R 450, similar but 5 mm longer case



notice the german version of the british BPE cases is not conical but cylindrical and then conical over the rim









and yes, basic case is the 450 express

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians

Edited by lancaster (20/04/18 01:34 AM)


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lancaster
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: lancaster]
      #315464 - 20/04/18 01:25 AM

btw, congratulations to a nice and rare double rifle

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: lancaster]
      #315467 - 20/04/18 05:58 AM

Hello Lanchaster,

Thanks for the reply.

And thank you for all the information. I've determined that this rifle is chambered for the 11.6x65R cartridge.

It took a little effort to re-work some 450-400 cases, but I'm now ready to go to the range for a test run. That is if enough snow melts to get down range.

My starting load is 30.0g AR5744 with a 350g Speer Flat Point - expected velocity is 1400 fps. This is basically a "low pressure" duplicate of the 45-70 Trapdoor Springfield load. It should be a good starting point to fire-form cases and check velocity.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DoubleD
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315470 - 20/04/18 07:11 AM

Thanks buckstix. That is neither Peabody nor Martini.

That is a clear example of others working with hinge block action. German and Swiss gunmakers did a lot work with this style. There are lot variations.

Absolutely beautiful.

Here is what Martini's patent looks like. The patent only applies to the method of connecting the lever to block to cycle the block and cock the mechanism.



--------------------
DD, Ret.


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: DoubleD]
      #315476 - 20/04/18 09:25 AM

Fun gun, for sure. What a cool hunting rifle!
A rifle that will make you feel good about carrying it, while out walking through the bush.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Sarg
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315485 - 20/04/18 11:33 AM

That thing is so cool, I love it !

So easily it could have been made with out hammers & used strikers like a normal Martini type ?

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315486 - 20/04/18 12:13 PM

Hello Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, and now that I've made ammo for it, I'm ready to have fun.

.
.


Hello Sarg

Thanks for the reply

Not sure why it was made with hammers. I suspect less complicated, or they used the state-of-the-art technology of the time. That being the late 1880's.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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Huvius
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315487 - 20/04/18 01:23 PM

It is an interesting study in how to combine a movable breechblock design with a traditional hammer back action lock.
It reminds me of the very early Alexander Henry falling block rifles which literally had a bar action lock let into the side of the modern (in the day) falling block action.
Taken individually, each mechanism is quite simple.
The lever and tilting or falling block operates just the block and the extractor and houses the firing pin.
The lock/trigger arrangement performs the duty of striking the hammer upon the firing pin and can incorporate a set trigger as in this gun.
Very cool for sure.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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lancaster
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Huvius]
      #315488 - 20/04/18 02:17 PM

most hunters than prefer hammer guns then for safety reason because you see with on view if the gun is cocked or not

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Sarg
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: lancaster]
      #315489 - 20/04/18 02:59 PM

Quote:

most hunters than prefer hammer guns then for safety reason because you see with on view if the gun is cocked or not




Good point, bet that is true to !

--------------------
No poor bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making other bastards die for their country.

- General George S. Patton


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DoubleD
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Sarg]
      #315493 - 20/04/18 10:27 PM

Absolute simplicity of function of a strong action, executed in beautiful fashion. Should be extremely reliable.

A wonderful gun to have in your collection, nice find. I can see why it appealed to you, it certainly does me.

Let us know how it shoots.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: DoubleD]
      #315497 - 20/04/18 11:20 PM

Hello Huvius.

Thanks for the reply.

The combined Tipping breech-block design with a hammer at the back of the action is what Savage did with their Lever Action 22 rifle. The one that looks like a Winchester 94.

Yes, this reminds me also, and is similar to my Alex Henry 450 BPE.
http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=308533&an=0&page=0#Post308533

The set-triggers are nice - but I've learned you DON"T set both triggers at once.

.
.

Hello lanchaster,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I like hammer guns because as you state, its easy to see if they are on safety.

.
.

Hello sarg,

Thanks for the reply.

I see that you agree.

.
.

Hello DoubleD

Thanks for the reply,

I'm hoping to get out shooting with it this weekend. That's if the snow melts from that Blizzard we had last Sunday.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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TH44
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315507 - 21/04/18 07:55 AM

Late to the comments section but must agree that it is a major addition to any DR collection

I have not followed Continental DRs except for Lancaster's excellent posts but see there is another world out there

Seriously good, I look forward with the others anticipation of the range reports

Well done

TH


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: TH44]
      #315524 - 22/04/18 12:19 AM

Hello TH44,

Thanks for the reply.

I think some of the most interesting doubles come from Germany; like this 8x57mm. I posted this about 5 years ago.

http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....true#Post233400

I should be shooting the Miller & Val. Greiss in about an hour. Hopefully I'll be posting favorable results later today.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315542 - 22/04/18 10:23 AM

Well, here is my first test target. I used 2 different aiming points. Dead center hold and 6 o'clock hold. Although this is only the beginning of my load testing, things look very promising. I'll try some heavier bullets next time, to see if they un-cross.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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Buchsemann
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action *DELETED* [Re: buckstix]
      #315557 - 23/04/18 12:31 AM

Post deleted by Buchsemann

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: Buchsemann]
      #315558 - 23/04/18 02:53 AM

Good start, with the barrel elevation quite close.

I would suggest for the lower velocity jacketed loads, the Remington 405 and WW 405 gr. are much better suited than the Speer bullets. The 1/16" thick jacket on the 350 Speer needs something over 1,900fps to expand while the 400gr. Speer, seems to work well in 1,500fps range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315564 - 23/04/18 03:43 AM

Hello Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply.

I'm going to try a little higher velocity with the 350g Speers, and then with some 400g Speers. I'm not really concerned with bullet performance on game, as I'm not likely to use this rifle for anything other than paper, until I find the correct bullet weight / velocity combination to get it regulating. Then for hunting, I can custom swage a lead half-jacket bullet to match.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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93x64mm
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315565 - 23/04/18 06:59 AM

Certainly promising Buckstix!
Glad you could make it to the range, lets hope the heavier bullets do the trick!


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: lancaster]
      #315567 - 23/04/18 07:23 AM

Quote:

if its a german made gun and the cartridge is a 450 BPE base you have a double rifle in 11,6x60R 450.

or 11,6x65R 450, similar but 5 mm longer case.



notice the german version of the british BPE cases is not conical but cylindrical and then conical over the rim.

and yes, basic case is the 450 express




Hello lancaster,

Would you have any idea of the bullet weight for the 11.6x60R or 11.6x65R cartridge?

It would help in finding a load that regulates in this rifle.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315570 - 23/04/18 08:54 AM

20.5 greams is likely the bullet weight.
That is about 14.5gr. per gram, isn't it? Memory sucks with some conversions.
300gr. (297.25gr.) should work then.

My bro drove a 300gr. FP Hornady, I think, out of his Sharps at 2,260fps, through the rib cage of about a 500pound calf moose - long yearling - 1 1/2 year old bull. Made a 1" diameter exit hole in the hide.

Hell of a good bullet - absolutely sacked that moose.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315572 - 23/04/18 09:41 AM

Hello Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I looked it up. Its 15.4324 grains per gram ... so, if 20.5 grams is the bullet weight, that would = 316.4 grains.

Now if we only knew the velocity. I wonder if 3.9 grams is the powder weight. That would be 60.2 grains of powder. ? ?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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tinker
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315576 - 23/04/18 11:14 AM

If that's it, a 45 caliber 300gr bullet with 60gr powder - you're looking at 45-60 cartridge performance, or about 1400 feet per second.

Should work nicely if it shoots to the sights.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315581 - 23/04/18 02:07 PM

I will look into the catalogs in the evening for the original bullet

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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: tinker]
      #315592 - 24/04/18 02:12 AM

Quote:

If that's it, a 45 caliber 300gr bullet with 60gr powder - you're looking at 45-60 cartridge performance, or about 1400 feet per second.

Should work nicely if it shoots to the sights.




Thanks for the conversion factor. I should have looked it up, rather than attempting to remember.

My error - 14.5 multiplier is Bar to PSI, for example air guns with a max. tank pressure of 200bar, is 2,900psi.

Yes - that's about it, Tinker, similar to a .45/60. 1,400fps to 1,500fps would be about it.

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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315594 - 24/04/18 04:31 AM

RWS and DWM had different bullets between 19,6 and 22,45 gramm






sorry, dont find more about it

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: lancaster]
      #315614 - 25/04/18 04:00 AM

Good stuff - so , up to 342gr. or thereabouts.

--------------------
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"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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tinker
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315619 - 25/04/18 08:07 AM

At the speed noted and cast fairly hard, that wide meplat 342 grain bullet would be excellent on deer and pig.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: lancaster]
      #315620 - 25/04/18 08:16 AM

Quote:

RWS and DWM had different bullets between 19,6 and 22,45 gramm

sorry, dont find more about it




Hello lancaster,

Thanks for the reply.

That's very useful information.

Next time I go to the range I will have some loads to try with 300g and 400g bullets.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315727 - 27/04/18 02:10 PM

Quote:

Good stuff - so , up to 342gr. or thereabouts.



Hello Daryl_S,

Thanks for the help with the bullet info.

I'm happy to say that I have this neat rifle up and running. Below is my latest shooting results. I tried 3 different bullet weights; 300g, 350g, and 400g. It only took about 45 rounds with testing 6 different loads to find its sweet spot. I might do a little more tweaking because the barrels are still crossing. But even so, with the way its grouping, I'm more than pleased. With groups slightly over an inch at 50 yards, I expect to obtain groups of about 4" at 150 yards. (that's only if I could see the sights to shoot that far) Its relatively flat shooting out that range. At 150 yards it still has over 800 ft/lbs of energy. That's plenty enough for anything here in Wisconsin. Also, the pressures with this load are mild. The fired cases drop easily back into the chambers. This allows for neck sizing only which will result in long case life.


.
.
.
.
.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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tinker
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315740 - 27/04/18 10:12 PM

Nice!

Definitely right there at 45-60 cartridge energy.
Really cool rifle, you'll have fun with it for sure.


Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: tinker]
      #315747 - 28/04/18 12:46 AM

It's amazing how small changes make big differences in these rifles.
You would likely find fpe around 750 at 200yards as well. That's factory 4" .44 mag. area.

Well done, buckstix.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: tinker]
      #315788 - 29/04/18 12:09 AM

Quote:

Nice!

Definitely right there at 45-60 cartridge energy.
Really cool rifle, you'll have fun with it for sure.


Cheers
Tinker



Hello tinker,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I am beyond happy. I'm going to test some Hornady 325g "flex-tip" bullets next time out.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315791 - 29/04/18 12:22 AM

At your lower speeds, those might be best all-round, even for more solidly built game like large hogs. The 300gr. RCBS flat nose is a terrific game bullet. I shot 2 elk with those, although I did convert one cavity to casting a HP. I was driving them at 1,584fps from a .45 Colt Model 94. 1-shot each.

I have not personally used the 325's on game yet, but guys up here say they are a bit 'soft' for moose. I assume they are talking about the Federal or Hornady Factory loads - about 1,800fps or maybe up to 2,100fps with handloads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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93x64mm
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315799 - 29/04/18 07:39 AM

Great going Buckstix!
Lovely to see you have a load for this old girl, will be interesting to note what the other loads did?


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: 93x64mm]
      #315801 - 29/04/18 08:36 AM

Quote:

Great going Buckstix!
Lovely to see you have a load for this old girl, will be interesting to note what the other loads did?



Hello 93x64mm,

Thanks for the reply.

See below.
.
.

Quote:

It's amazing how small changes make big differences in these rifles.
You would likely find fpe around 750 at 200yards as well. That's factory 4" .44 mag. area.

Well done, buckstix.



Hello Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply.

The Hornady Flex-Tip actually has about 855 ft/lbs energy remaining at 200 yards. However, after 150 yards the bullet drops like a stone. At a 150 yards the bullet hits about 4-1/2" below aiming point, so you only have to aim a tad higher on the animal. But at 200 yards the bullet drops an additional 13-1/2" which is about 18" below the aiming point. I don't like guessing "hold-over" so I'll limit my hunting with this rifle to 150yds.

.
.

Here's an update from today's shooting test .... 4/28/18

I tried some Hornady 45 cal Flex-Tip bullets today. They weigh 325 grains, which is very close to the weight of one of the original bullets for the 11.6x65R which weighed 20.9 grams = 323 grains.

And what a welcome surprise! Not only did they "un-cross" but they grouped better than any other load / bullet combination tested. Also, because these bullets have a "point" as opposed to a flat nose, they have a higher ballistic coefficient. This, with the slight increase in weight, results in the ft/lbs of energy increasing by about 150 ft/lbs over the entire 150 yard range.

I'm done! This will be my "best load" for this rifle from now on. It took only 92 shots to come to this final grouping.






--------------------
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tinker
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315807 - 29/04/18 11:49 AM

Fantastic!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: tinker]
      #315808 - 29/04/18 11:56 AM

Yes - looks great & at those lower speeds, they should do just fine, from deer to moose & elk!

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: tinker]
      #315812 - 29/04/18 01:03 PM

Quote:

Fantastic!



Hello tinker,

Thanks for the reply.

Its been 8 hours since I shot that group, and I'm still smiling!

.
.

Quote:

Yes - looks great & at those lower speeds, they should do just fine, from deer to moose & elk!


Hello Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply.

I just had a friend email me to say I should have quit after the first 2 shots, or at least I should have taken a picture of that first pair. They were 1/2" apart. Well, OK, I did take a picture.



--------------------
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93x64mm
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315843 - 30/04/18 07:23 AM

Can't get better that that!
Brilliant Buckstix!


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: 93x64mm]
      #315859 - 30/04/18 09:17 PM

Quote:

Can't get better that that!
Brilliant Buckstix!



Hello 93x64mm,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I think I'm done with this one.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #316151 - 06/05/18 02:22 PM

Hello All,

Here are a couple pictures of the locks on this double rifle. The reason I removed them, is that today while shooting I had the rifle "double" on me. When I fired the right barrel, BOTH barrels fired. This happened on the 4th pair. WOW ! !

Normally the recoil from shooting this 8-1/4 pound rifle with a 325g bullet traveling 1560 fps, is about 17.7 ft/lbs. That's not bad from an 8-1/4 pound rifle. However, when it "doubled", the recoil spiked to 71 ft/lbs. This is the first time this has happened in over 100 shots, but 71 ft/lbs of recoil really hurts from an 8-1/4 pound rifle.

This is why I removed the locks. I thoroughly cleaned and oiled them, and tightened a few loose screws. I'm hoping that this won't happen again.




--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #316162 - 06/05/18 11:26 PM

Ouch- the sear engagement looks OK on the left one, but picture is a little hard to make out.
Nice locks.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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Wayne59
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #316164 - 07/05/18 12:12 AM

Are you sure it is the locks. My German rifle doubles when you shoot it off the bench. After about the tenth time it did it I realized that the horn trigger guard (witch I hate) positions my right hand wrong and that my trigger finger is hitting the rear trigger under recoil. I have to make a conscious effort to wrap my finger around the front trigger. My hand is then in an unnatural position.

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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Wayne59]
      #316165 - 07/05/18 01:35 AM

Quote:

Ouch- the sear engagement looks OK on the left one, but picture is a little hard to make out.
Nice locks.



Hello Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply.

I think both sears are fine. I'm hoping it might have just been a small piece of debris that caused poor engagement.

.
.

Quote:

Are you sure it is the locks. My German rifle doubles when you shoot it off the bench. After about the tenth time it did it I realized that the horn trigger guard (witch I hate) positions my right hand wrong and that my trigger finger is hitting the rear trigger under recoil. I have to make a conscious effort to wrap my finger around the front trigger. My hand is then in an unnatural position.



Hello Wayne59,

Thanks for the reply.

I don't think I "strummed" the rear trigger, but I'll be paying close attention to that possibility next time I take the rifle shooting.


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