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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315542 - 22/04/18 10:23 AM

Well, here is my first test target. I used 2 different aiming points. Dead center hold and 6 o'clock hold. Although this is only the beginning of my load testing, things look very promising. I'll try some heavier bullets next time, to see if they un-cross.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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Buchsemann
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action *DELETED* [Re: buckstix]
      #315557 - 23/04/18 12:31 AM

Post deleted by Buchsemann

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: Buchsemann]
      #315558 - 23/04/18 02:53 AM

Good start, with the barrel elevation quite close.

I would suggest for the lower velocity jacketed loads, the Remington 405 and WW 405 gr. are much better suited than the Speer bullets. The 1/16" thick jacket on the 350 Speer needs something over 1,900fps to expand while the 400gr. Speer, seems to work well in 1,500fps range.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315564 - 23/04/18 03:43 AM

Hello Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply.

I'm going to try a little higher velocity with the 350g Speers, and then with some 400g Speers. I'm not really concerned with bullet performance on game, as I'm not likely to use this rifle for anything other than paper, until I find the correct bullet weight / velocity combination to get it regulating. Then for hunting, I can custom swage a lead half-jacket bullet to match.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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93x64mm
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Tip-Block Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315565 - 23/04/18 06:59 AM

Certainly promising Buckstix!
Glad you could make it to the range, lets hope the heavier bullets do the trick!


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: lancaster]
      #315567 - 23/04/18 07:23 AM

Quote:

if its a german made gun and the cartridge is a 450 BPE base you have a double rifle in 11,6x60R 450.

or 11,6x65R 450, similar but 5 mm longer case.



notice the german version of the british BPE cases is not conical but cylindrical and then conical over the rim.

and yes, basic case is the 450 express




Hello lancaster,

Would you have any idea of the bullet weight for the 11.6x60R or 11.6x65R cartridge?

It would help in finding a load that regulates in this rifle.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315570 - 23/04/18 08:54 AM

20.5 greams is likely the bullet weight.
That is about 14.5gr. per gram, isn't it? Memory sucks with some conversions.
300gr. (297.25gr.) should work then.

My bro drove a 300gr. FP Hornady, I think, out of his Sharps at 2,260fps, through the rib cage of about a 500pound calf moose - long yearling - 1 1/2 year old bull. Made a 1" diameter exit hole in the hide.

Hell of a good bullet - absolutely sacked that moose.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315572 - 23/04/18 09:41 AM

Hello Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I looked it up. Its 15.4324 grains per gram ... so, if 20.5 grams is the bullet weight, that would = 316.4 grains.

Now if we only knew the velocity. I wonder if 3.9 grams is the powder weight. That would be 60.2 grains of powder. ? ?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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tinker
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315576 - 23/04/18 11:14 AM

If that's it, a 45 caliber 300gr bullet with 60gr powder - you're looking at 45-60 cartridge performance, or about 1400 feet per second.

Should work nicely if it shoots to the sights.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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lancaster
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315581 - 23/04/18 02:07 PM

I will look into the catalogs in the evening for the original bullet

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: tinker]
      #315592 - 24/04/18 02:12 AM

Quote:

If that's it, a 45 caliber 300gr bullet with 60gr powder - you're looking at 45-60 cartridge performance, or about 1400 feet per second.

Should work nicely if it shoots to the sights.




Thanks for the conversion factor. I should have looked it up, rather than attempting to remember.

My error - 14.5 multiplier is Bar to PSI, for example air guns with a max. tank pressure of 200bar, is 2,900psi.

Yes - that's about it, Tinker, similar to a .45/60. 1,400fps to 1,500fps would be about it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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lancaster
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315594 - 24/04/18 04:31 AM

RWS and DWM had different bullets between 19,6 and 22,45 gramm






sorry, dont find more about it

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: lancaster]
      #315614 - 25/04/18 04:00 AM

Good stuff - so , up to 342gr. or thereabouts.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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tinker
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315619 - 25/04/18 08:07 AM

At the speed noted and cast fairly hard, that wide meplat 342 grain bullet would be excellent on deer and pig.

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: lancaster]
      #315620 - 25/04/18 08:16 AM

Quote:

RWS and DWM had different bullets between 19,6 and 22,45 gramm

sorry, dont find more about it




Hello lancaster,

Thanks for the reply.

That's very useful information.

Next time I go to the range I will have some loads to try with 300g and 400g bullets.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315727 - 27/04/18 02:10 PM

Quote:

Good stuff - so , up to 342gr. or thereabouts.



Hello Daryl_S,

Thanks for the help with the bullet info.

I'm happy to say that I have this neat rifle up and running. Below is my latest shooting results. I tried 3 different bullet weights; 300g, 350g, and 400g. It only took about 45 rounds with testing 6 different loads to find its sweet spot. I might do a little more tweaking because the barrels are still crossing. But even so, with the way its grouping, I'm more than pleased. With groups slightly over an inch at 50 yards, I expect to obtain groups of about 4" at 150 yards. (that's only if I could see the sights to shoot that far) Its relatively flat shooting out that range. At 150 yards it still has over 800 ft/lbs of energy. That's plenty enough for anything here in Wisconsin. Also, the pressures with this load are mild. The fired cases drop easily back into the chambers. This allows for neck sizing only which will result in long case life.


.
.
.
.
.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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tinker
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315740 - 27/04/18 10:12 PM

Nice!

Definitely right there at 45-60 cartridge energy.
Really cool rifle, you'll have fun with it for sure.


Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: tinker]
      #315747 - 28/04/18 12:46 AM

It's amazing how small changes make big differences in these rifles.
You would likely find fpe around 750 at 200yards as well. That's factory 4" .44 mag. area.

Well done, buckstix.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: tinker]
      #315788 - 29/04/18 12:09 AM

Quote:

Nice!

Definitely right there at 45-60 cartridge energy.
Really cool rifle, you'll have fun with it for sure.


Cheers
Tinker



Hello tinker,

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, I am beyond happy. I'm going to test some Hornady 325g "flex-tip" bullets next time out.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315791 - 29/04/18 12:22 AM

At your lower speeds, those might be best all-round, even for more solidly built game like large hogs. The 300gr. RCBS flat nose is a terrific game bullet. I shot 2 elk with those, although I did convert one cavity to casting a HP. I was driving them at 1,584fps from a .45 Colt Model 94. 1-shot each.

I have not personally used the 325's on game yet, but guys up here say they are a bit 'soft' for moose. I assume they are talking about the Federal or Hornady Factory loads - about 1,800fps or maybe up to 2,100fps with handloads.

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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93x64mm
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: Daryl_S]
      #315799 - 29/04/18 07:39 AM

Great going Buckstix!
Lovely to see you have a load for this old girl, will be interesting to note what the other loads did?


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: 93x64mm]
      #315801 - 29/04/18 08:36 AM

Quote:

Great going Buckstix!
Lovely to see you have a load for this old girl, will be interesting to note what the other loads did?



Hello 93x64mm,

Thanks for the reply.

See below.
.
.

Quote:

It's amazing how small changes make big differences in these rifles.
You would likely find fpe around 750 at 200yards as well. That's factory 4" .44 mag. area.

Well done, buckstix.



Hello Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply.

The Hornady Flex-Tip actually has about 855 ft/lbs energy remaining at 200 yards. However, after 150 yards the bullet drops like a stone. At a 150 yards the bullet hits about 4-1/2" below aiming point, so you only have to aim a tad higher on the animal. But at 200 yards the bullet drops an additional 13-1/2" which is about 18" below the aiming point. I don't like guessing "hold-over" so I'll limit my hunting with this rifle to 150yds.

.
.

Here's an update from today's shooting test .... 4/28/18

I tried some Hornady 45 cal Flex-Tip bullets today. They weigh 325 grains, which is very close to the weight of one of the original bullets for the 11.6x65R which weighed 20.9 grams = 323 grains.

And what a welcome surprise! Not only did they "un-cross" but they grouped better than any other load / bullet combination tested. Also, because these bullets have a "point" as opposed to a flat nose, they have a higher ballistic coefficient. This, with the slight increase in weight, results in the ft/lbs of energy increasing by about 150 ft/lbs over the entire 150 yard range.

I'm done! This will be my "best load" for this rifle from now on. It took only 92 shots to come to this final grouping.






--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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tinker
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: buckstix]
      #315807 - 29/04/18 11:49 AM

Fantastic!

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Daryl_S
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: tinker]
      #315808 - 29/04/18 11:56 AM

Yes - looks great & at those lower speeds, they should do just fine, from deer to moose & elk!

--------------------
Daryl


"a rifle without hammers, is like a Spaniel without ears" Edward VII


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buckstix
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Re: Rare Hammer Double Rifle w/ a "Double" Martini Action [Re: tinker]
      #315812 - 29/04/18 01:03 PM

Quote:

Fantastic!



Hello tinker,

Thanks for the reply.

Its been 8 hours since I shot that group, and I'm still smiling!

.
.

Quote:

Yes - looks great & at those lower speeds, they should do just fine, from deer to moose & elk!


Hello Daryl_S

Thanks for the reply.

I just had a friend email me to say I should have quit after the first 2 shots, or at least I should have taken a picture of that first pair. They were 1/2" apart. Well, OK, I did take a picture.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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