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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #282904 - 26/05/16 12:54 AM

As Matt noted, the problem's with smokeless and the Damascus barrels was with the handloader's "switch" to the new high energy powders. No one had powder scales and hardly anyone understood anything about pressure. As with black powder, figured if they put more in, it goes faster & kicks more is all they knew. 1 or 2 of the powders were 'bulk' powders, some were not. That only confounded the confusion. Once read that Purdey made Damascus shotgun barrels until 1929.

Even today, some people who are loading their own 'shells' rifle or shotgun, should not be as they cannot follow instructions, let alone standard rules. They still use dippers and still add a bit more to get a bit more velocity.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Wayne59
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Reged: 20/06/15
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Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: DarylS]
      #282933 - 26/05/16 10:03 AM

I probable own twenty to twenty five Damascus barreled guns and I would not hesitate to fire any one of them. I fire Bp in the pin fires because of barrel wall thickness and use nitro for black loads in the rest. There has been lots of testing done and there is plenty of data available for proper loading.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Reged: 01/05/04
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Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #282939 - 26/05/16 11:48 AM

mckinney,

I just returned to this thread. What people have posted about the wonderfulness of BPE loads is absolutely true and a well-kept secret. This is true whether you are actually loading black powder or whether you are loading nitro-for-black (which I normally do). Now, mind you, this is not for the person who sources ammo at Walmart.

I absolutely adore the black powder double rifles for quite a few reasons. Let me think of a few: they were the best guns made at the time; they were chambered for the best cartridges to be had at the time; they are wonderfully made; they are wonderfully balanced; they shoot quite accurately; they are underappreciated.

Ballistically they are great. No, you aren't going to reach out and touch someone at 500 to 600 yards, but if you are a woods hunter, there is nothing given up. The game don't know you are shooting an antique.

They are easy to load for. That being once you have thoroughly studied the task at hand and have mastered the necessary loading techniques. If you are a novice, not willing to learn before jumping in, you are likely to ruin a fine gun.

Let me give you an example of my devotion to these cartridges. I have a Farquharson single shot rifle chambered for the .450-400 3-1/4" nitro express. This was its original chamber and proof - a full nitro proof rifle. These falling block single shot rifles are strong as pure hell, so the nitro round is nothing to it. However, the rifle is light, about 9 pounds or so. It will be miserable with full nitro rounds, as would be a Ruger No. 1 chambered in the equivalent Jeffery round. I choose to shoot nitro-for-black rounds in my Farquharson. That's still a zippy cartridge, and it is pleasant in that rifle. Super accurate also. Here's a link to a post I did several years ago about that rifle: http://forums.nitroexpress.com/showflat....9&fpart=all

The truth is, the NE dinosaur killers are not that much fun. Do you get my drift?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
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Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: CptCurl]
      #282943 - 26/05/16 12:42 PM

McKinney
Here is an auction link to a true Fraser Patent box lock rifle. You can see the differences from a usual A&D job.
The Fraser is a thoroughly well engineered design. A giveaway is the screw head at the right rear lower part at the rear of the action, to access the trigger pivot screw.


http://auctions.holtsauctioneers.com/asp...4&saletype=


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mckinney
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Reged: 29/01/09
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Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: MikeRowe]
      #282968 - 27/05/16 04:53 AM

Mike, thanks for that - very helpful. I've decided not to buy the particular rifle I've been considering. It is probably a trade boxlock set up by Fraser. It has the Fraser patent top lever but neither the graceful scalloped action nor the side screw you mention. Still a pretty rifle though.

Curl, I definitely do get your drift and I love your Farquharson. I think the lesson for me here is that I need to do a great deal more studying on double rifles.

Incidentally I've been reading "More Single Shot Rifles", written by James J. Grant in 1959. There is a full chapter on the Farquharson action, complete with a story of the patent battle. The book in general is a great read if you haven't seen it.

Thanks to all for the very good advice. I've avoided what might have been a mistake.


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lonewulf
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Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: mckinney]
      #282998 - 27/05/16 02:06 PM



CptCurl, without wishing to derail the thread; that sure is one hell of a good looking Farquharson.


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MikeRowe
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Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: lonewulf]
      #283015 - 28/05/16 09:25 AM

McKinney
Yes, do your homework. But buying a good Fraser is never a mistake.
A Holland, maybe. A Purdey, probably.


Boy, am I in trouble now……..


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trumpetman
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Reged: 02/11/16
Posts: 9
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #291196 - 01/12/16 07:28 AM

Iowa 303 wrote:
"I have been using shotguns with damascus barrels, both bp and nitro proofed, for over 30 years with nfb loads and never had a problem."
_______________________
In 1966, Elmer Keith told me that his father had a damascus barreled Ithaca 12 gauge sxs shotgun, that was so loose, off face, that he had to physically hold, press the barrels hard against the action, or the firing pins would not fire the rounds. Further, he told me that his dad always loaded the heaviest rounds he could, for that gun. He said that he had warned his dad against using it this way, but to no avail. THAT is what got me started using damascus barreled double shotguns, and later damascus double barreled rifles. Thus far, I have never had a problem with any damascus barreled gun/rifle I ever shot---probably in the neighborhood of around 50 to 75 of them.
Yes, nitro for black powder handloads are a joy to shoot in double rifles. Forget about fears of using dacron in handloads, it is a simple process, works extremely well, is simple to do, without a single problem----try it; you will like it.


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Wayne59
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Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: trumpetman]
      #291219 - 01/12/16 02:16 PM

I like buying Damascus barreled guns at wall hanger prices. You guys arn't helping my hobby. (Ha Ha)

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Dutch44
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Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: Iowa_303s]
      #299115 - 16/04/17 10:07 AM

A friend has a Daniel Fraser 450-400 3 1/4 that is NOT nitro proved. Yet, he fires his loads of 3031 to nitro velocities as well as original Kynoch ammo. I wouldn't but he is happy doing it and has yet to have an issue. I agree with Curl, just a matter of time.

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3DogMike
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Reged: 29/01/15
Posts: 1404
Loc: Western Slope, Colorado USA
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: Dutch44]
      #299135 - 17/04/17 12:46 AM

Quote:

A friend has a Daniel Fraser 450-400 3 1/4 that is NOT nitro proved. Yet, he fires his loads of 3031 to nitro velocities as well as original Kynoch ammo. I wouldn't but he is happy doing it and has yet to have an issue. I agree with Curl, just a matter of time.



+1 "just a matter of time"

The above for 2 reasons:
1) blithly shooting full nitro loads in a BP proved non-nitro rifle
2) it is reasonably well established that IMR 3031 can be very erratic pressure wise in large case Express type cartridges. Back in the Jack Lott and Elmer Keith era people used 3031 because it fairly well duplicated the burn rate of Cordite, unfortunately some guns were blown up or wrecked by unexplaned high pressure excursions with this powder. In the interveneing years the knowledge base has expanded and there are MUCH more suitable powders. IMR3031 in a large case capacity NITRO EXPRESS rifle is a risky choice.
- Mike

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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50Calshtr
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Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Southeast Georgia
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: 3DogMike]
      #299143 - 17/04/17 02:54 AM

Thanks 3DogMike for the comments on IMR 3031. When I first started with these rifles in the mid 70s it was the go to powder due to it's burn rate. It was also the worst powder to try to regulate a double with, half a grain +/- and three inch groups would go to 12 inches, tear your hair out at times. Fast-forward to Autumn 2005, Sherman Bell wrote an article in "The Double Gun Journal" entitled Finding Out For Myself - Express Rifle Pressures, Nitro for Black. In it he pressure tests four powders, including 3031. Beg, borrow or steal this one along with his summer 2011 article in the same magazine on case fillers, both are worth keeping in your reloading file.
Best


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