Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact
NitroExpress.com: Black powder to Nitro

View recent messages : 24 hours | 48 hours | 7 days | 14 days | 30 days | 60 days | More Smilies


*** Enjoy NitroExpress.com? Participate and join in. ***

Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)
mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Black powder to Nitro
      #282744 - 22/05/16 05:14 PM

Here is a (probably) silly question about black powder v. nitro double rifles from someone who knows very little about either.

I assume the lower pressure handling capability of BPE rifles is due to the strength of steel in the receiver and barrels, so that one cannot convert a BPE rifle to handle nitro cartridges in the same caliber just by adding a new set of barrels. That is, the relative weakness of the receiver steel cannot be overcome.

Is that a fair statement or does the truth lie somewhere in between?

Edited by mckinney (22/05/16 10:05 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
xausa
.400 member


Reged: 07/03/07
Posts: 2037
Loc: Tennessee, USA
Re: Black power to Nitro [Re: mckinney]
      #282749 - 22/05/16 09:07 PM

Your typo in the caption led me to expect an entirely different question!

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
sharps4590
.300 member


Reged: 09/03/16
Posts: 242
Loc: Missouri Ozarks
Re: Black power to Nitro [Re: xausa]
      #282750 - 22/05/16 10:03 PM

You would be correct.

--------------------
Jesus said, "I am the way the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me." John14:6


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: Black power to Nitro [Re: xausa]
      #282751 - 22/05/16 10:06 PM

sorry, fixed now, at least the thread title:)

Edited by mckinney (22/05/16 10:07 PM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2386
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: mckinney]
      #282756 - 23/05/16 12:25 AM

Quote:



I assume the lower pressure handling capability of BPE rifles is due to the strength of steel in the receiver and barrels, so that one cannot convert a BPE rifle to handle nitro cartridges in the same caliber just by adding a new set of barrels. That is, the relative weakness of the receiver steel cannot be overcome.

Is that a fair statement or does the truth lie somewhere in between?




No not entirely true. The steel used and the design both may be strong enough for Nitro, the gun was just built for and proofed to black powder standards. Depends on the gun.

The custom is to have the gun proofed for Nitro if it was designed and constructed correctly.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: DoubleD]
      #282758 - 23/05/16 12:47 AM

Thanks, but assuming the rifle and design are not strong enough for nitro, will a new set of barrels alone make it strong enough? (Of course I realize the cost of new barrels will easily be $15k plus). Is the depth of the rifling significant pressure wise? I know the weight is important and nitro barrels are significantly heavier.

I'm struggling to get at the fundamental question, because I don't know what it is.

The rifle I am thinking of is something like one of the Fraser hammerless doubles from around 1880.

Edited by mckinney (23/05/16 12:52 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Rockdoc
.400 member


Reged: 07/12/06
Posts: 1212
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: mckinney]
      #282766 - 23/05/16 09:10 AM

Quote:

Thanks, but assuming the rifle and design are not strong enough for nitro, will a new set of barrels alone make it strong enough? (Of course I realize the cost of new barrels will easily be $15k plus). Is the depth of the rifling significant pressure wise? I know the weight is important and nitro barrels are significantly heavier.

I'm struggling to get at the fundamental question, because I don't know what it is.

The rifle I am thinking of is something like one of the Fraser hammerless doubles from around 1880.




I would take the rifle to a recognize gunmaker and get their opinion.

Many changes occurred to double rifle design with the transition from low-pressure black powder to nitro. I have read reports of frames cracking and going off the face with early NE rifles.

Hence, internal changes that are not externally obvious (locking arrangements, load-bearing surface areas etc.) and eventually bolstered frames.

I think that barrels may be part of the answer, but not the whole. Compare the pressures reported for black powder versus nitro:

450-3 1/4" BP 11-12tpsi

450-3 1/4" NE 16-17tpsi.

However, tropical loads, as favored by early NE H&H double rifles are proofed for lower pressure, e.g. My 500/450 3 1/4" is proofed for 12tpsi. That they can take higher is proved by their chambering of at least one full powered 450 No.2 cartridge in 1905 (13.7tpsi). Tropical loads seemed to be on the wane post WW1? Tropical loads are lsited by Kynoch in their 1902-03 catalogue, but they are not listed by Eley Brothers in 1910-11.

Perhaps it is possible to get new barrels chambered for a Tropical load or a low pressure load. Again, this is a question for an expert with the particular rifle in hand.

Hope this helps.

Edited by Rockdoc (23/05/16 09:35 AM)


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DoubleD
.400 member


Reged: 23/11/03
Posts: 2386
Loc: Retired in Oklahoma
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: mckinney]
      #282768 - 23/05/16 12:07 PM

Quote:

Thanks, but assuming the rifle and design are not strong enough for nitro, will a new set of barrels alone make it strong enough?




The answer then is no, new barrels or not if the designed is not strong enough for nitro then it's not strong enough for nitro.

--------------------
DD, Ret.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: mckinney]
      #282785 - 24/05/16 12:05 AM

Quote:

Thanks, but assuming the rifle and design are not strong enough for nitro, will a new set of barrels alone make it strong enough? (Of course I realize the cost of new barrels will easily be $15k plus). Is the depth of the rifling significant pressure wise? I know the weight is important and nitro barrels are significantly heavier.

I'm struggling to get at the fundamental question, because I don't know what it is.

The rifle I am thinking of is something like one of the Fraser hammerless doubles from around 1880.




I don't think that anyone would try to "upgrade" an 1880 double rifle to a nitro caliber. Basically your frame is iron, nothing like modern steel. In 1880 nitrocellulose wasn't even on the radar screen.

You haven't told us the original caliber and the nitro caliber you are considering.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: CptCurl]
      #282788 - 24/05/16 01:27 AM

Rockdoc,

Thank you for that detailed response. It makes perfect sense to me.

CptCurl

The rifle i am considering is a Fraser .450-400 3 1/4 BPE that is probably from about the same period as the 1891 Woodward on your website, possibly a bit later. (There was a nearly identical rifle in the Amoskeag April sale) Actually, it was the fact that the Woodward had been re-proofed with the original barrels that got me thinking about it in the first place. The Woodward is a gorgeous rifle by the way.

When I first began thinking about double rifles, it was a Holland pre-war sidelock in .375 flanged or 500/465 that I had to have. Then I started thinking about English and Continental boxlocks and finally decided the Fraser (Scottish of course) is the most appealing boxlock to my eye.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3517
Loc: Colorado
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: mckinney]
      #282794 - 24/05/16 02:51 AM

I wouldn't say 100% one way or the other.
Fraser actually did rebarrel BPE rifles as nitro rifles. You run across Alex Henry's on occasion rebarreled by Fraser. One just sold at auction recently that was a 450bpe as Henry made it and Fraser rebarreled it to 400/360 iirc.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
DarylS
.700 member


Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26413
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: Huvius]
      #282796 - 24/05/16 04:05 AM

Very much depends on action design, I'd think, as to whether a BPE is capable of being re-barreled or re-proofed as a Nitro Express.

I do know personally of one Double, but it was a 10 bore Westley Richards - practically new in case, action still a bit stiff, needing shooting to smooth it up. H&H said it hadn't fired a full box of ammo when sent to them for examination in the 70's, but my late friend Will Tompson & that the gun would "loosen up" with shooting. The higher regarded this gun, though made by a competitor.

H&H wrote Will asking him if he'd allow them to re-proof the gun for nitro as it was in new condition and a late gun as well & they knew the gun would pass proof, without any danger to the gun.

Will acquiesced to the request and received it back in fine shape, newly proofed and stamped for 2 7/8" NE shells - but then, that was a shogun, not a rifle.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Marrakai
.416 member


Reged: 09/01/03
Posts: 3475
Loc: Darwin, Top End of Australia
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: DarylS]
      #282816 - 24/05/16 10:38 AM

OK, I know this isn't the question asked, but shooting nitro-for-black in the .450-400 3 1/4 will give you a functional deer rifle without the smoke/fouling of black powder. Gas-checked lead bullets, or even heavy .41-calibre pistol bullets (depending on your groove diameter) may regulate in your double at well below 10 tons pressure.

If you are trying to make a heavy-hitting double for buffalo or bigger, different story, but even then, N-for-B in a .500 3-inch with bonded-core bullets IS a buffalo or bear rifle. Not much (short of jumbo/rhino) that can't be taken cleanly with a 440gr premium bullet at 1850 fps.

To add something realistic to this thread, I have a .577 x 2 3/4 Webley 'A&W C' double rifle that was black powder proved for the 'express' load (520gr lead bullet), however it is the so-called 'long-bar' action with screw-grip and fluid-steel barrels, so I have pushed it a bit with N-for-B loads. By happy circumstance, it regulates the 650gr jacketed Woodleigh bullet at 1840 fps with the correct powder, probably right at, or just slightly above, 10 tons pressure. That's not far short of full nitro ballistics for the 2 3/4 inch case. At that velocity recoil becomes an issue however.

Admittedly, that rifle is an exception, and the normal BP hammerguns in my employ are never subjected to anything other than 'standard' N-for-B loads.

So as Daryl says, I guess it depends on the rifle. Late hammerless BP doubles with heavily-built actions can probably be ramped-up a fair bit from the accepted (well below 10 tons) N-for-B ballistics, but one needs to think long and hard about the consequences should your assessment prove to be optimistic! In most cases, they would probably need re-regulation to do this anyway

Otherwise, what the other guys have said. At proof, the barrel/action/bolting is tested as unit. Replacing the barrels may not necessarily be addressing the weakest link in the chain.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: Huvius]
      #282837 - 24/05/16 09:28 PM

Quote:

CptCurl

The rifle i am considering is a Fraser .450-400 3 1/4 BPE that is probably from about the same period as the 1891 Woodward on your website, possibly a bit later. (There was a nearly identical rifle in the Amoskeag April sale) Actually, it was the fact that the Woodward had been re-proofed with the original barrels that got me thinking about it in the first place. The Woodward is a gorgeous rifle by the way.

When I first began thinking about double rifles, it was a Holland pre-war sidelock in .375 flanged or 500/465 that I had to have. Then I started thinking about English and Continental boxlocks and finally decided the Fraser (Scottish of course) is the most appealing boxlock to my eye.




I suppose I'm holding the "smoking gun."

Yes, my Woodward was put to nitro proof at some point in its existence and passed. In my view, does that stand as a green light to sally forth with a cartridge belt full of .450-400 3-1/4" NE cartridges with that rifle in hand? No. Not for me.

There is such a marked difference between that rifle and one designed for the nitro cartridge. The Woodward is light and petite. A proper nitro .450-400 is a big, heavy, robust rifle. You know it was designed for the punishment of the nitro round. The action is larger, the stock is beefier.

Would my Woodward explode if fired with a pair of nitro rounds? Dunno. We know it didn't when it went through the London Proof House for that trial. So what would I expect to happen if it were subjected to a steady diet of nitro rounds? I think in short order the barrels would come off face and the stock would likely crack or split. A work of art would thus be damaged or destroyed.

I fire nitro-for-black loads in my Woodward, and what a great joy it is! It just loves a 265 grain cast gas-check bullet propelled at the velocity of its original BP loading. As Marrakai says, this is a wonderful load for deer or elk; even black bear. It's easy on the shoulder and will not harm my beautiful Woodward in the slightest.

I have a big, robust Greener Facile Princeps Treble Wedge Fast double chambered in the .450-400 3-1/4" Nitro Express that I reach for when I want to pretend I'm chasing Jumbo.

To me, the London nitro proofs on my Woodward are simply superfluous. Interesting yes, but not instructive as to how the rifle should be used.

So thanks for putting the debate back in my lap. I had no idea my Woodward was central to your inquiry. Touche!

As an aside let me point out that Woodward made a number of these "Automatic" rifles chambered for the .303 British. In terms of chamber pressure, that round is way up there compared to other nitro express rounds. That may tell us the action can withstand the pressure. However, the modest recoil generated by the .303 isn't going to destroy the wood or a shooter's shoulder.

I think Woodward also chambered these in the .450 3-1/4" BPE. I would not dream of touching off a .450NE in one of those rifles.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
CptCurlAdministrator
.450 member


Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5268
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: CptCurl]
      #282838 - 24/05/16 09:36 PM

McKinney,

A Fraser double rifle is a thing of beauty. May we see photos of your rifle?

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3517
Loc: Colorado
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: CptCurl]
      #282844 - 24/05/16 11:39 PM

Good post Curl!
I agree that many late BP rifles were reproofed as full nitro guns but in using them as such, you will soon see that is not the way to go.
Part of the equation, I am sure, is the notion that at 10,000psi, the brass cartridge case is fully adhered to the barrel walls so I would guess that the strength of the barrel is the most critical aspect of the equation but not the only consideration for sure.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: CptCurl]
      #282854 - 25/05/16 03:11 AM

Curl, I haven't yet bought the rifle. I've been agonizing over it for 8 or 10 days, which is what prompted this whole line of inquiry. I have to say that your writing about the joys of shooting nitro for black in the Woodward is not doing anything to dissuade me! If I do buy it, it will be my first double rifle, which I think is what is causing the indecision. My thinking had been that a first double rifle ought to be a nitro proofed gun in something like 360 no. 2 or .375 flanged. Now I'm not so sure about that.

Re: nitro for black ammo, are you aware if anyone sells the Kynamco nitro for black loads in the US? The idea of stuffing a handful of Dacron in each cartridge when making up loads doesn't seem very appealing, but...hell...that might actually be great fun.

I'll make a decision in a few days and post photos if I buy the rifle. Thanks for the post!


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
50Calshtr
.300 member


Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Southeast Georgia
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: mckinney]
      #282858 - 25/05/16 04:59 AM

Get a rifle you can shoot NfB loads in, either a 450 or 500 late black powder gun. They are a lot of fun to shoot, easy and cheap to load for once you do some reading, can take anything in North America and don't kick the crap out of you. They are the best of both worlds. I have three, a 500 3", 500#2 and a 577 3" and enjoy all three. You will most probably have to plan to reload as it allows you to find a load/bullet that works best in your rifle but it's part of the fun and no huge chore. Get Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle" and read it a few times, particularly the chapter dealing with the NfB loads.
Best.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
50Calshtr
.300 member


Reged: 01/11/05
Posts: 119
Loc: Southeast Georgia
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #282861 - 25/05/16 05:11 AM

Forgot to mention, "or get the rifle you are looking at, as CptCurl and Marrakai mention it should do just fine." BTW both of these guys know more about this subject than just about anyone so you can trust their opinion.
Best (again).


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Huvius
.416 member


Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3517
Loc: Colorado
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #282865 - 25/05/16 07:16 AM

I don't think there is any particular concern with this being a "first double rifle" from the chambering standpoint. The 360No.2, however, should not be IMO.
Actually, I would encourage anyone to choose a BPE rifle as their first double. They are way less expensive than comparable nitro guns and for me, much more enjoyable.

Most importantly, your first double rifle should be one which you enjoy shooting and will give long service. The worst is that the gun is bought on the merits of the chambering itself and other problems or potential issues get overlooked.
Stock condition, bore condition, reliability of the locks, even the fit of the rifle can make an otherwise apparently perfect choice become a costly headache.
A double with wonderful bores in your favorite cartridge and wonderful metal condition is a total bummer with a cracked stock, especially if you're the one to crack it shooting hot loads!
I heard there was a Fraser double at the Colorado collector show that needed a restock. I didn't get to the show this year. Is the gun you are looking at a private sale or from a dealer?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
MikeRowe
.333 member


Reged: 23/11/11
Posts: 478
Loc: Arkansas, USA
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: Huvius]
      #282882 - 25/05/16 12:31 PM

McKinney
Do you know if the Fraser rifle you are considering is a trade box lock set up by Frasers', or one of his own patent box locks?
I have only been inside one example of the patent rifles, and it remains the most thoroughly well made antique box lock double rifle I have ever seen, both in design and workmanship.
If you were in the UK in the last two decades of the nineteenth century, and wanted the best double or single rifle money could buy, you went to Fraser's.
The 450/400 3 ¼" is a wonderful round too - it would be hard to think of a black powder round better suited for deer hunting.


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: Huvius]
      #282886 - 25/05/16 02:51 PM

Huvius, you have a PM.

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
mckinney
.400 member


Reged: 29/01/09
Posts: 1212
Loc: usa
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: MikeRowe]
      #282887 - 25/05/16 02:55 PM

Mike, I don't know if it's a Fraser patent box lock or not. Unfortunately I'm about 10 time zones away and won't have a chance to look at the rifle before I buy it (if I do). Is there a way to tell from photographs of the exterior of the rifle? What is the definitive way to tell?

Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Postman
.375 member


Reged: 25/09/13
Posts: 846
Loc: Canada
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: 50Calshtr]
      #282896 - 25/05/16 09:50 PM

Quote:

Get a rifle you can shoot NfB loads in, either a 450 or 500 late black powder gun. They are a lot of fun to shoot, easy and cheap to load for once you do some reading, can take anything in North America and don't kick the crap out of you. They are the best of both worlds. I have three, a 500 3", 500#2 and a 577 3" and enjoy all three. You will most probably have to plan to reload as it allows you to find a load/bullet that works best in your rifle but it's part of the fun and no huge chore. Get Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle" and read it a few times, particularly the chapter dealing with the NfB loads.
Best.




When looking at a rifle that one might play with NFB, does barrel type have a significant bearing on the ability to handle NFB loads? I'm thinking in terms of "fluid steel" barrels vs "Damascus"........ I frequently see many turn of the century doubles for sale in good shape with Damascus barrels but have been terrified to delve in...... As a very young man, the hunter safety training and firearms training courses put the fear of God into everyone over using Damascus barrelled firearms and that repeated early education has made me "gun shy"........ Thoughts?


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Iowa_303s
.400 member


Reged: 22/03/13
Posts: 1014
Loc: Iowa, USA
Re: Black powder to Nitro [Re: Postman]
      #282898 - 25/05/16 11:24 PM

Postman,
I have been using shotguns with damascus barrels, both bp and nitro proofed, for over 30 years with nfb loads and never had a problem.
Most of the warnings about damascus guns came about during the time of transition from black to the early dense nitro powders. During this time fluid steel barrels also came into being.
Most old shooters in the US home loaded bp shotshells using a powder dipper and when the new dense powders became available some did not heed the instructions on using the correct amount of the nw powder. They just used their old bp scoop and loaded away causing dangerous over pressure rounds.
Instead of blaming themselves they blamed the "weak damascus barrels". The gun sellers of the day were quick to agree because steel barrels became cheaper to manufacture than labor intensive damascus.
Of course I do not use modern loads that are commonly available at just about any store that sells ammo in these old beauties. I either load my own or use specially purchased shells made for these old guns.
I don't have any experience with damascus barreled rifles but many on this forum can and have answered your questions.

Ok, a little tongue in cheek here-All damascus guns are BAD! Send them to me for proper retirement please.

--------------------
Matt

formerly known as Iowa_303

"Once your reputation is ruined you can live your life quite freely."

"Enkelkinder über alles"


Post Extras: Print Post   Remind Me!   Notify Moderator  
Pages: 1 | 2 | >> (show all)



Extra information
0 registered and 52 anonymous users are browsing this forum.

Moderator:  CptCurl 

Print Topic

Forum Permissions
      You cannot start new topics
      You cannot reply to topics
      HTML is disabled
      UBBCode is enabled

Rating:
Topic views: 12840

Rate this topic

Jump to

Contact Us NitroExpress.com

Powered by UBB.threads™ 6.5.5


Home | Ezine | Forums | Links | Contact


Copyright 2003 to 2011 - all rights reserved