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gallipliphile
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Loc: New Zealand
Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value?
      #280771 - 12/04/16 11:07 AM

Hi Team.

New member here... wrestling with the computer...

Need to learn more about this rifle for interest and for insurance.

Family hierloom, has been a companion to Grandad in Africa....made for him at Lancasters shop.

Oval bore... marked .450 EX 3 1/2" CASE 80 grns Cordite 480 grn max.

Solid tight lock up... looks to be perfectly safe to use.

My dad said Grandad told him it was 1 of a pair.... Grandad must have needed money one sad day?

Can't find anything like it on the net.

Lots of photos of it harvesting animals in the 1920's.

Regards



Edited by gallipliphile (12/04/16 03:26 PM)


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Wayne59
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #280772 - 12/04/16 11:19 AM

What a nice family heirloom. Your are lucky to have it.

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gallipliphile
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Wayne59]
      #280774 - 12/04/16 11:32 AM

I know little about it.
Looks to have a different build to other Lancasters i have seen on the net... very solid "cheeks" on the sides of the action.

Was always in it's case under my folks bed.

Allways just called "The elephant gun".

It has harvested them and Rhino and Cats.

Edited by gallipliphile (12/04/16 11:35 AM)


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LesLeeSpeed
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #280781 - 12/04/16 01:23 PM

Hi Gallipliphile,
Welcome.
That is really nice!!! The action is unusual with that beefed up rear, but should be very strong.
How about sharing some of the photos from Africa. I'm sure that many of the members would love to see them.
LesLeeSpeed


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4seventy
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #280785 - 12/04/16 01:43 PM

Hi gallipliphile, Welcome to NE!
You have a very nice double there. The extended top tang is cool.
Is it possible to post photos of the proof marks on the barrel flats, and we sure would love to see some of those 1920's hunting photos.
Thanks.

Hopefully CptCurl will chime in here, and may be able to give some information on your Lancaster.


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gallipliphile
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: 4seventy]
      #280788 - 12/04/16 03:28 PM

...i have put a couple more pics up... i'll look for more tommorrow.

Note the slip-on pad. And that was when the red rubbr pad was soft! It is like rock now

My folks have most of them but aren't nearby.

Regards

Edited by gallipliphile (12/04/16 03:31 PM)


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4seventy
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #280829 - 13/04/16 03:13 PM

They're awesome photos, thanks for posting them.
The English proofs on the barrel flats appear to be from between 1904 and 1925.
The gun appears to actually have been built by Lancaster in England, and as Huvius has noted on the other forum, the action is of the assisted opening type. This system can also be found on other Lancaster guns. It was originally a Beesley design.
It's a nice double and chambered for a very highly regarded cartridge, the 450 NE No2.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: 4seventy]
      #280833 - 13/04/16 03:56 PM

Guys, any extimate of value?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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gallipliphile
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: NitroX]
      #280839 - 13/04/16 08:19 PM

Hey thanks for that info... any more would be gratefully recieved. Grandad left England in 1922, so that adds up.

When u open the gun from cocked it does jump open... and is hard to shut... fighting those assisting springs mentioned.

I have no snap caps or ammo so cannot comment on opening it once fired.
Can anyone help with a source of cases and suitable projectiles... in quantities less than 100?

FYI it has a 100 sight and 300 flip up leaf.

Found a couple more photos... bearers holding ivory but not with the gun.
. Will post tommorrow

Regards




Hi...it's tomorrow

Photos added via editing... only way i kno...

One photo showing Grandad with a Mauser with full rib... and a lot of ivory.



Edited by gallipliphile (14/04/16 08:30 PM)


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Rockdoc
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #280842 - 13/04/16 10:09 PM

Lovely and very interesting rifle.

Wonder where the partner went?

You can buy the brass from Bertram here in Aus and the projectiles for the 450 Nitro from Woodleigh agents.

The self opening action is, like Purdey's, a bit of a knack to close!

Cheers, Chris


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Rockdoc
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Rockdoc]
      #280843 - 13/04/16 10:18 PM

Also you can find loading data in Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle", a must for double rifle owners IMHO.
Also the data is in the Woodleigh Bullets Loading Manual.

You can buy Grame's book here on Nitro Express.

Cheers, Chris


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4seventy
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: NitroX]
      #280879 - 14/04/16 12:52 PM

Quote:

Guys, any extimate of value?



John, I wish I could help out with an estimate, but I'm not really up to date with current pricing on DR's.

Curl or Huvius and others, might be able to suggest a current value for insurance purposes?


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gallipliphile
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: 4seventy]
      #280891 - 14/04/16 08:39 PM

More photos added to earlier post. One with mauser that is long gone. And unidentified sadly..

My buddies (who are itching to shoot the rifle) have made inquiries to Bertrams... they were told cases would only be sold by the hundred. But there's not many elephants here, so we only need a handfull.

Kynoch will supply small lots but not export we hear. An English mate did go back home (twice)recently,but to bury his parents so didn't get any cartridges.
I forgave him. Both times. Let them breed up i said. (Elephants that is).

I do have that book on loan from a kind Chap, who advised the need for suitably constructed projectiles and even gave me an old box end of the ones i need.
So... slowly, learning learning....
But no ammo yet.

...a photo of gun shut, and more booty.

Regards



Edited by gallipliphile (14/04/16 09:09 PM)


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lancaster
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #280931 - 15/04/16 05:40 AM

just helping against neck pain







--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
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bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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gallipliphile
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: lancaster]
      #280941 - 15/04/16 06:31 AM

Good work thank you.

NB; a couple of years ago my folks decided to sell a Black Rhino horn that was gathered by Grandad in 1926. Legal to sell because the hunting permit was with it, dating it pre CITES.
It had always been a doorstop in their home but recently they saw it as a security risk and put it out of sight.

It reached over $70,000 NZD at auction.

Edited by gallipliphile (15/04/16 06:36 AM)


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Well_Well_Well
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #280947 - 15/04/16 08:39 AM

I'd love to help you out, but I can't scratch together more than about $3k ;-P

Capt Curl will be able to help you with value, or possibly Cal Pappas. Watch out for that Curl though, he's got a habit of adding rare and very, very nice doubles to his collection with monotonous regularity!

Bertram will be able to provide brass with correct head stamp, get 100, you'll have people begging you for a sample for their collections and you can make some snap caps out of a pair. woodleigh projectiles will work well on those rampaging wekas...

From the photos it appears to be a fabulous rifle still, with a little care it should provide another 90 or more years of service, congratulations!


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Rockdoc
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Well_Well_Well]
      #280949 - 15/04/16 09:03 AM

Great photos!

Should be able to buy less than a 100. I wonder if I can get them and send to you?

Was the hundred limit direct from Bruce Bertram? I have bought much less than that number previously. I would hazard a guess they are about AUD5 here, so buying a hundred if you don't need that many is a fair whack of money. When I reloaded some for my 600NE single that is being built, I bought about a dozen cases from Bruce, some time ago. Gave a couple away to collectors and the rest seem to have gone missing!

Let me know if you would like me to enquire from Bruce.

Cheers,

Chris


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gallipliphile
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Rockdoc]
      #280954 - 15/04/16 11:01 AM

If u could get some brass, that would be much appreciated thank you Chris!

As i'm not anticipating a safari... i think a dozen cases would be plenty?

Is that red rubber available these days?
...bags NOT shooting it as-is :/

Would be nice to mint the old thing up again.
I'm getting old (and crusty) and have been fixing guns for a living for a few years now, so hopefully my skills are of a suitable standard.

Could always temporarily fit a limbsaver, but getting the old one off may destroy it.
So maybe not.

Although the Lancaster is probably worth twice what all my other guns combined would be, i only want a value for insurance purposes... i'll be selling the others 1st if i'm short of milk money.

Regards

Edited by gallipliphile (15/04/16 12:16 PM)


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Rockdoc
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #280959 - 15/04/16 12:35 PM

I'll try Bruce and don't worry about the red rubber, should be fine, my old 500/450 31/4" Magnum is, but your loads will be a little stiffer!

Is the LOP right for you? If not a slip on pad will be fine. These don't kick savagely unless it does not fit you well..

Cheers,

Chris


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gallipliphile
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Rockdoc]
      #280964 - 15/04/16 01:50 PM

That "rubber" ain't!
It's now a red rock... shaped like a recoil pad!!!
Let me know how u get on. Thank you.

Regards


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #280970 - 15/04/16 05:06 PM

I'll have a guess for you. Recently saw a Lancaster double in 9.3x4 but mint condition. I reckon yours with that history and the assisted opening is worth about GBP7000 (british sterling) but if you had to replace it, it would take some finding so I would go GBP10,000 for insurance, best, Mike

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gallipliphile
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #280971 - 15/04/16 05:45 PM

Hey thank you.
What was the value of th 9.3?

Any link or pic?

I had thought Grandads one might be worth a bit more than that. Even in well used condition. It's no safe queen.
Wishfull thinking maybe, but i saw a few fancy ones on line in th States for huuuge money... and they just looked like shotguns.

The solid action on this one gives me a good feeling.

That makes a Sako safari 375 H&H look expensive.

Lower value suits me... it's not for sale, and less value is less worry.
Am i swayed by colonial sentimentality?... but a classic British maker and cartridge spins my wheels.

Anyone else?

Regards

Edited by gallipliphile (15/04/16 07:06 PM)


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pondoro62
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #280973 - 15/04/16 07:14 PM

Galli, I think Mike Bailey is spot on both on sale value and insurance value for you rifle..

I have a similar double in .475 from the same time span (another make), a little more upmarked with scroll engraving all over the action and mint barrels. It is insured for GBP 10.000,-

Barrel condition is the most critical parameter for setting a value. As Cal Pappas say (he is a capacity on old doubles..), the only item that cant be fixed on a double is worn/rusty barrels..

Due to the present decline in African hunting, due to low oil price and lots of bad press against hunting, workin man double rifles do not sell so easily...

Top end doubles sell like hotcakes....but they are put away for investment..


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gallipliphile
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: pondoro62]
      #280974 - 15/04/16 08:26 PM

Again... Thank you.

That takes some pressure off.

I had thought it might be worth zillions, and that would be a problem.

Barrels are good. A very few light pits half way down one bore. But very good.... say a 9 out of 10. Other barrel is a 10.

I read another thread on here regarding Makers, and learned about the current owners of the Lancaster name.
I will contact them seeking any info they have on this gun and its brother, and maybe even Grandad.

Regards ))
.


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93x64mm
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: 4seventy]
      #281009 - 16/04/16 08:14 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Guys, any extimate of value?



John, I wish I could help out with an estimate, but I'm not really up to date with current pricing on DR's.

Curl or Huvius and others, might be able to suggest a current value for insurance purposes?



Priceless mate.....you can't put a dollar value on history!
You have the genuine article in your safe at home, the real McCoy with photos to prove it.
With care of it & will out last your kids!
Shame you never had the ivory still - how much would that be would now-a-days?
Make sure you have it in your will to go to family that appreciate what you really have.
Would be a tragedy to see it just thrown away as you see all to often.
Hope to see photos of what this old girl can do on the range & game of more recent times!
93x64mm


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Huvius
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #281023 - 16/04/16 12:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Guys, any extimate of value?



John, I wish I could help out with an estimate, but I'm not really up to date with current pricing on DR's.

Curl or Huvius and others, might be able to suggest a current value for insurance purposes?



Priceless mate.....you can't put a dollar value on history!
You have the genuine article in your safe at home, the real McCoy with photos to prove it.
With care of it & will out last your kids!
Shame you never had the ivory still - how much would that be would now-a-days?
Make sure you have it in your will to go to family that appreciate what you really have.
Would be a tragedy to see it just thrown away as you see all to often.
Hope to see photos of what this old girl can do on the range & game of more recent times!
93x64mm





Exactly!
I hesitate to offer advice on pricing an heirloom such as this for precisely the reasons stated above.
For insurance purposes, just peruse the market and price it according to what you see offered that is similar. Then maybe add 25%.
Bear in mind that if it were to be lost or stolen, NO money or rifle will ever truly replace it. Its value to you will never be equaled.

Now, back to the rifle.
You have already tapped into the best resource on the web and you being in NZ will surely get the help needed from members here to get the Lancaster shooting again. Hopefully shipping from Oz to NZ isn't too difficult as I would expect there to be a few shooting the No.2 there.
The 450 No.2 is a big case and a bit of an odd man out in the 450 group but what class! Even loaded down, just dropping those huge cartridges into the chambers and leveling the sights on target is an event!

One option is to find 475 No.2 brass and start with that. Probably not any less expensive, but I'd wager that Kynoch did produce a lot more of it than the 450 so maybe easier to find. The case specs are a little different but I do believe I have heard of it being used.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Rockdoc
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Huvius]
      #281025 - 16/04/16 04:16 PM

IIRC the 450 N0.2 NE was Ian Nyschens favourite double rifle cartridge.

I couldn't get hold of Bertrams yesterday, no answer, so will try Monday.

Cheers, Chris


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gallipliphile
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Rockdoc]
      #281030 - 16/04/16 07:41 PM

"The 450 No.2 is a big case and a bit of an odd man out in the 450 group but what class! Even loaded down, just dropping those huge cartridges into the chambers and leveling the sights on target is an event!"

Well said!!!

Now you're getting my juices flowing.

Thanks HEAPS guys... good luck monday Chris.

Regards

Edited by gallipliphile (16/04/16 07:45 PM)


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Wayne59
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #281036 - 16/04/16 11:29 PM

I have a Westly Richards single shot built on a Deely and edge action that shoots that round. Got everything needed to shoot it from Buffalo Arms. Don't know if they can ship to Australia.

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Huvius
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Wayne59]
      #281038 - 16/04/16 11:47 PM

Quote:

I have a Westly Richards single shot built on a Deely and edge action that shoots that round. Got everything needed to shoot it from Buffalo Arms. Don't know if they can ship to Australia.




I'm thinking your Westley is chambered for the 500/450 No.2 Musket cartridge.
Totally different animal to the 450No.2 Nitro Express.

500/450 No.2 Musket on left. 475No.2 Nitro on the right (at least close to the 450 No.2)


Please tell us about your Westley!

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Rockdoc
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Huvius]
      #281129 - 18/04/16 01:14 PM

Gallipliphile, I have sent you a PM re the Bertram cases.

Bertram sell the 450 No.2 3 1/2" NE cases by the box of 20.

Cheers,

Chris


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WildCattle
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #281226 - 20/04/16 02:06 PM

IIRC, the "Gun vault at Fox Hill" used to have for sale the brother of this rifle about 5-10 years back and I think in the same caliber.
This thing was one of the toughest looking double I have ever seen. Yours is the same.
You might want to ask the dealer for his records...

Best regards and good luck with it.

WC-

--------------------
You know you have reached perfection of design not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: WildCattle]
      #281247 - 21/04/16 01:44 AM

GBP10,000 works out at approximately a A$20,000. I would surprised if you could not get at least that in Australia. My original 'guess' was a minimum in the range of $15,000 to $20,000. I am not up to date on the current market though. If you looked at the usedguns website you would see most would be asking for more than that. What they sell for though might be different. For the double rifles that are listed. Vintage rifles are only occasionally listed though.

Keep the rifle for its history though. As that can't be replaed.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: NitroX]
      #281249 - 21/04/16 01:59 AM

NOTE THE BELOW IS FOR A .450 NO.2 NE (3 1/2" CASE).

Quote:

Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... Oval bore... marked .450 EX 3 1/2" CASE 80 grns Cordite 480 grn max




I ASSUME THIS IS THE SAME CHAMBERING??? NOT SURE WHAT THE RIGBY #2 IS. ??? IF NOT PLEASE DISREGARD.

.450 No. 2 NE cases were $7 each from Bertram last time I bought some. One of the more expensive cases. I would purchase more than twekve if I was you to allow load development ie enough different loads to try at a sitting.

In my .450 No.2 NE (3 1/2" case) I use 105 gr of AR2213SC with a foam filler for a 480 Gr Woodleigh RNSP or FMJ. I would suggest starting with a lighter load. 105Gr works well in my Jeffery DB rifle. I think I started at about 98 grs to 110 grs. 105 grs regulated best. A filler MUST be used as the case is nowhere near full enough and without a filler would be potentially dangerous ie hangfires.

I suggest you purchased a copy of Graeme Wright's "Shooting the British Double Rifle". I have some in stock for sale and can post to you if you are interested. The Bible for shooting these sorts of rifles.

Use a chronograph when test shooting loads. And don't exceed the normal range of velocity expected, ie around 2100 fps to 2200 fps for a 480 gr projectile. The pressure signs won't be apparent on a double rifle and if present the pressure may already be too great. I did not notuce any with the range I mentioned.

NO LIABILITY OR RESPONSIBILITY IS ACCEPTED OR IMPLIED BY MYSELF OR NITROEXPRESS.COM. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK AND DISCRETION.

Good luck with your rifle and a great family heirloom. Any more historic photos please post.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Huvius
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: NitroX]
      #281252 - 21/04/16 03:55 AM

I am pretty sure the 450No.2 was a W.J. Jeffery cartridge just as the 475No.2 was.
Just as Rigby introduced the 470 and H&H made the 500/465 when the .458 ban came in.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Huvius]
      #281253 - 21/04/16 04:04 AM

Thanks Huvius.

Eley created the .450 No.2 NE I believe. Did Eley make any rifles though?

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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gallipliphile
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: NitroX]
      #281259 - 21/04/16 05:18 AM

Thank you Gentleman.

Just referred to Frank Barnes Cartridges of the World... the .450 number 2 is in fact an Eley design.

I was confusing it with other designs.

Thank you for that load data. Great to get advice from someone with hands on.

I do not anticipate hunting with this caliber....nothing in my country needs even half that grunt to knock it over.
And if i did hunt anything dangerous like a buffalo in Aussie i'd want a scope to help my old eyes. (The front sight is very fine).

I just want to make it go BANG BANG.
That will add to the buzz when holding it and looking at Grandads photos!

Does anyone know where i can get some of the red rubber to remake the butt pad?

Regards

Edited by gallipliphile (21/04/16 07:19 AM)


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Rockdoc
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #281271 - 21/04/16 06:46 AM

What material is your front sight bead? Can it be polished for better visibility?

I find mine are indeed quite tiny to see in anything but very good light! The joys of aging.....

On occasion I have resorted to the folding moon sight


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gallipliphile
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Rockdoc]
      #281276 - 21/04/16 07:25 AM

Photo of sight posted... maybe not that fine on closer inspection.

Quite perfect, like the rest of the rifle.
A heavy bead wouldn't work for a shot at 300 yards using the flip up leaf...

I'm just getting old.

Anyone able to help with getting some new Red Rubber?

Regards

Edited by gallipliphile (21/04/16 07:39 AM)


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Wayne59
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #281285 - 21/04/16 08:35 AM

You are correct Huvius. My fingers got ahead of my brain. My mistake. The 450 no 2 caught my eye.

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Rockdoc
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Wayne59]
      #281295 - 21/04/16 10:19 AM

For a red recoil pad you may look at Silvers. Kynamco in GB stock them.

At the same time you could order some Kynoch Nitro Express wads to use with powders not giving Close to 100% fill. I use them in my 500/450 3 1/4".

They might also sell you some cartridge cases?

http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/silvers.html

Cheers, Chris


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3DogMike
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Wayne59]
      #281296 - 21/04/16 10:24 AM

For the proper red/orange original recoil pad search "original S. W. Silver recoil pad".
Doing a quick look I see that are available in the USA via Galazans and Midway, or in the UK by Kynoch.
Doubtless available in Australia as well.

Do have a careful gunsmith/craftsman do the install on this fine old rifle.
The originals were usually lightly "varnished" after installation on the rifle in order to keep the pad looking better.
- Mike

EDIT: .......ah, I see Rockdoc/Chris just beat me to the mention of the Silver's pad.

--------------------
"Here's to killing people you don't like with people you do"

"Will Rogers never met a fighter pilot"
- Anon

“Always carry a flask of whiskey in case of snakebite, and furthermore always carry a small snake."
-- W. C. Fields


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Brithunter
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: 3DogMike]
      #281425 - 23/04/16 08:05 PM

Kynamco do Silvers pads:-

http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/

--------------------
Don't let the bastards grind you down!


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Rockdoc
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Brithunter]
      #281462 - 24/04/16 10:49 AM

Is there a visually similar alternative to the Silver's that has more give? They tend to be a little rock hard.

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #281820 - 02/05/16 07:14 AM

gallipliphile, Within this thread, 4seventy wrote: "The action is of the assisted opening type."
Rockdoc wrote: "The self opening action is, like Purdey's, a bit of a knack to close."
______________________________
Rockdoc is correct, while 4seventy is not. It is, indeed, a self opener; not an assisted opener. Many guys consider the self opener the same as an assisted opener, but they are not the same. Many more guys don't know the difference between the two, though they should learn, and stop spreading wrong information on websites.
Many people, including some who should know better, get self openers and easy openers confused; some don't know the difference between the two. A self opener springs open just as smartly after firing, as it does when locks are cocked; easy openers do not. Only four true self openers have ever been developed and made in numbers: 1. the first and most significant by Frederick Beesley (his first design used, of course, by Purdey right up to the present day); his second concept, a modification of his original design, used by Charles Lancaster (Lancaster modified it again later, so at that time it became strictly a spring cocker with no cocking levers, 2. Holland & Holland design that was adaptable to boxlock or sidelock, 3. The Charles Rossen design, almost as adaptable as the H & H design. 4. the rarest design of all, by Gough Thomas. Naturally, other gunmakers made self openers, but most are variations of the Rossen concept. The Beesley design stands alone in being completely integral with the mechanics of the action and lockwork. It is unique in the way he integrated the functions of opening and cocking---all other systems use separate mechanisms that have no other function. It was a brilliantly integrated system, three separate and different functions, cocking, firing, and opening, ALL ACTIVATED BY A SINGLE SPRING, THE MAINSPRING within the action! References to the original Beesley/Purdey concept in many standard reference books are not accurate: J.H. Walsh, The Modern Sportsman Gun and Rifle, W.W. Greener in The Gun and its Development, Sir Gerald Burrard in The Modern Shotgun ALL GOT IT WRONG. Gough Thomas got it right, in his Second Gun Book of 1972.

Edited by doubleriflejack (02/05/16 07:32 AM)


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4seventy
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #281827 - 02/05/16 10:14 AM

Quote:

By doubleriflejack

Within this thread, 4seventy wrote: "The action is of the assisted opening type."
Rockdoc wrote: "The self opening action is, like Purdey's, a bit of a knack to close."
______________________________
Rockdoc is correct, while 4seventy is not. It is, indeed, a self opener; not an assisted opener. Many guys consider the self opener the same as an assisted opener, but they are not the same. Many more guys don't know the difference between the two, though they should learn, and stop spreading wrong information on websites.
Many people, including some who should know better, get self openers and easy openers confused; some don't know the difference between the two.


Only four true self openers have ever been developed and made in numbers: 1. the first and most significant by Frederick Beesley (his first design used, of course, by Purdey right up to the present day); his second concept, a modification of his original design, used by Charles Lancaster





Jack,
So it is incorrect to describe the Beesley/Lancaster system as 'assisted opening' huh?
Well for your information here's a quote from some "expert" who is also calling it an assisted opener.

Quote:

Beesley invented two systems for self cocking, spring cocking, and added assisted opening as well to these actions. One of these two spring powered self cocking systems he sold to Purdey; the other he himself used on his guns, as did other gun makers, mostly Lancaster,.....



Now who was it who posted that? . Wait a minute, it was someone called........ doubleriflejack!!
It was in fact you!!

Here it is.



Edited by 4seventy (02/05/16 06:13 PM)


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doubleriflejack
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: 4seventy]
      #281845 - 03/05/16 05:29 AM

So, I didn't express my thoughts very well, but, as a former U.S. President, Richard Nixon, once said, "I know what I meant," LOL. I know the difference between self openers and assisted openers, regardless of my making a mistake in verbalizing it, while, obviously others who think they know the difference, don't. Wisdom shows that those who know the least, anger very quickly when one tries to correct them!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #281855 - 03/05/16 07:57 AM

Quote:

So, I didn't express my thoughts very well, but, as a former U.S. President, Richard Nixon, once said, "I know what I meant," LOL. I know the difference between self openers and assisted openers, regardless of my making a mistake in verbalizing it, while, obviously others who think they know the difference, don't. Wisdom shows that those who know the least, anger very quickly when one tries to correct them!




Maybe a different tone, and manner of making a statement might have a different result from the one fully expected and anticipated.

Excellent come back by Alan though.

Please take your fight elsewhere.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (03/05/16 07:58 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: gallipliphile]
      #281856 - 03/05/16 08:02 AM

Quote:

I do not anticipate hunting with this caliber....nothing in my country needs even half that grunt to knock it over.
And if i did hunt anything dangerous like a buffalo in Aussie i'd want a scope to help my old eyes. (The front sight is very fine).

I just want to make it go BANG BANG.
That will add to the buzz when holding it and looking at Grandads photos!




I would consider making up a dozen or so loaded rounds for you at tremendous cost (!!! actually would be quite pricey considering how much they cost to make, and how much commercially purchased NE rounds go for!!!) so you don't need to reload, but there is the difficulty of gettng loaded rounds to you in NZ or anywhere by post or other means???

I am usually reluctant to reload for other people as there is the liability risk and no control of how the ammunition is used or the rifle it is used in. Just like I use pull the bullets out of other peoples handloads, throw away the powder and recharge myself. For the opposite reason of not knowing if they are reliable.

No idea if the rounds would regulate in your rifle. I would probably make up some 100grs AR2213SC loads (as said mine regulates with 105 grs) with a foam filler, which at least would go bang. No liability would be accepted, and I would be building up the loads at your instruction and per your 'recipe'. Maybe someone in NZ could help you? Or if you know someone in SA willing to have them dropped off to them. Unfortunately exporting live ammunition even via a airline passenger also requires approval and declaration at customs.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (03/05/16 08:08 AM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Huvius]
      #281857 - 03/05/16 08:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I have a Westly Richards single shot built on a Deely and edge action that shoots that round. Got everything needed to shoot it from Buffalo Arms. Don't know if they can ship to Australia.




I'm thinking your Westley is chambered for the 500/450 No.2 Musket cartridge.
Totally different animal to the 450No.2 Nitro Express.

500/450 No.2 Musket on left. 475No.2 Nitro on the right (at least close to the 450 No.2)


Please tell us about your Westley!




BTW I hadn't noticed this post before.

I have to say the "oval bore" comment does not sound like a .450 No.2 NE. Unless some other gentlemen on here could correct me, I doubt the .450 No.2 NE was made with an oval bore. Which sounds like an earlier cartridge.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (03/05/16 08:26 AM)


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Wayne59
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: NitroX]
      #281864 - 03/05/16 12:50 PM

I would post pic's but I cant make it work on this site. The gun isn't in pristine shape but it is OK.It is a sporter with express sights that go out to 600yds. It originally had a ladder sight made as part of the express sight but it ha been broken off. It is a straight grip shot gun style but stock with a metal but plate. Octagon barrel 26" with a checkered fore arm with horn fore end cap and a cleaning rod under the barrel. Action is lightly engraver and the barrel is marked (For 450 no 2 case) and of course with the maker and address. A 535gr slug and a case full of black powder is brutal in this gun. My friend tried to shoot it off the bench (after I told him not to) and it broke his nose. 405gr projectile with a nitro for black load tamed it down some.

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stug
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: Wayne59]
      #281869 - 03/05/16 03:24 PM

Pretty sure I know someone in NZ with a 450 No 2. I'll mention this thread to him and he might be able to help you out.

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gryphon
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: stug]
      #281870 - 03/05/16 06:25 PM

An interesting and rewarding thread on the old girl..should be more of it!

--------------------
Get off the chair away from the desk and get out in the bush and enjoy life.


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stug
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: stug]
      #281871 - 03/05/16 07:22 PM

Quote:

Pretty sure I know someone in NZ with a 450 No 2. I'll mention this thread to him and he might be able to help you out.




Sorry, struck out, he didn't have one.


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gallipliphile
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Reged: 26/03/16
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: stug]
      #281895 - 05/05/16 02:04 AM

Thanks for all th help guys.

I will take a chamber cast to better identify it. But being marked as...
.450 EX 3 1/2" CASE... I think we're on th money with it being Number 2?

I did partially cast th chamber but ran out of bog. It's a BIG hole.

Measuments taken off that cast suggested .450 number 2 nitro.

Regards


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Rhodes
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Re: Lancaster Double in.450 Rigby #2 ... value? [Re: 93x64mm]
      #283788 - 12/06/16 09:22 PM

gallipliphile... what a fantastic heirloom to have in the family. Thanks for posting pics of the double and ele's. What a history that gun has. It's a shame your grandfather didn't keep a journal to log his adventures in africa. If you find out more about his hunting adventures please let us know.

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