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Ripp
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Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag
      #258349 - 29/12/14 09:26 AM

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/hunting/fact-fiction-double-rifles-faster-second-shot-bolt-actions/

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TH44
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ripp]
      #258363 - 29/12/14 11:54 AM

Although not a dangerous game hunter myself, the article gives a balanced view

Thanks for posting

TH44


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Ripp
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: TH44]
      #258379 - 30/12/14 01:23 AM

Quote:

Although not a dangerous game hunter myself, the article gives a balanced view

Thanks for posting

TH44




I have and do shoot both. I do agree with some of what is stated. All things being equal there is NO doubt a double is faster. But in today's world of hunting dangerous game I really feel the NEED for a double is long gone as there is typically a PH there to back you up after the first shot. Some back you up whether you want them to or not, or so I hear..

Using a double certainly has a different feel to the hunt. It lets your mind take you back a bit in time which is fun and nostalgic. When I go back I will be taking both..but do plan to use the double most of the time..

Ripp

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DarylS
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ripp]
      #258387 - 30/12/14 03:57 AM

I feel that using a double rifle today in Africa is akin to using a muzzleloading big bore for moose or elk here in NA. It's more of a hunter's, hunt - having to close in for a good iron sight shot, not relying upon optics. I cannot 'see' using as scope on a DR. It would be my personal choice, I understand.

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Daryl


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Postman
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DarylS]
      #258406 - 30/12/14 10:03 PM

I used a double .500NE for my buffalo and a .375 bolt gun for plains game. Looking back, I could easily have used the double on everything I shot. Maybe a little heavy for the plains game but oh well, what the hell. My double was wearing a Trijicon RMR. Traditional, well, kinda not really...... That firey tiny little red dot really works for my old eyes and it makes me VERY fast to get on target easily out to 100 yards and maybe some stretch beyond that.

I have been contemplating dispensing with the notion of using scoped rifles entirely except for maybe barren ground caribou where distances can be a factor. Anyhow, my next double will be a .450NE with a second barrel set in .375 flanged magnum. Both barrel sets will wear RMR sights and I'm pretty pumped about using it for most all of my hunts. I do hope to return to Africa one day, good health and several buckets of money permitting. Aside from that, NA hunting will keep me in the field and hopefully carrying a double!


Edited by Postman (30/12/14 10:09 PM)


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Deutsche_Vortrekker
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Postman]
      #258414 - 31/12/14 09:16 AM

A good article . While most Americans such as myself have little or zero experience shooting double rifles many of us ,however have grown up using SXS double shotguns extensively so it might surprise you how fast we can be with a Double . I love to use double guns for upland where 2 quick shots are most important .Only rarely do you need a third as game birds are then long gone.I can see in Afrika the need for 2 really quick shots can mean life or death

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eagle27
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Deutsche_Vortrekker]
      #258416 - 31/12/14 12:55 PM

The article in itself really only covers a portion of the process when using doubles or bolts. The article is talking of the process required to fire two aimed (effective) shots and is not talking of charging animals specifically. Like DV, many of us will have used or still use doubles for gamebird shooting and this style of gun is almost exclusive on the clay target field so there is likely a vast amount of experience amongst shooters who post here on using this type of firearm. As we know the success of using this style of quick pointing and shooting gun which comes into its own for game bird shooting and clay target shooting in terms of speed of firing two effective shots, is its fit to the shooter and pointability exactly the same as required for a double rifle.

I fully concur than under most circumstances the double rifle (not necessarily the user of it) is capable of firing two effective shots on game faster than perhaps any other firearm type including I might add, a semi-auto.

But all this is only half the story as once the double shooter has discharged his two shots he is then faced with reloading his gun, and those of use who use this style of gun on game birds or running game will know, this is not an easy task if doing it on the run when trying to keep tabs on the game and watch where one is running or moving. On DG invariably where the animal is not down and out with the first shot and often the second has been fired quickly after the first, then the PH is grabbing or urging the shooter to get into another position to shoot again. From my observation of video shot in the field (forget trials on the range) the reloading of a double is difficult if trying to move at the same time, most often the shooter stands and reloads and then has to catch up or follows the PH with an empty gun and then reloads or maybe has managed to reload on the run usually lagging behind the PH while he accomplishes the task, all the time he is not watching the game or likely where he is running. Accomplishing this task in the open is obviously going to be somewhat easier but add broken ground and brush it just gets a whole lot harder.

Meanwhile the bolt user may also have discharged two shots which as the article proposes can often be accomplished at the same or in some cases quicker than a double (effective aimed shots) but then his gun is in exactly the same state as a double would have been before shooting started i.e. still has 2 (or 3) available shots which can be got away at a similar rate to the double if needed. At any stage the bolt user can easily operate his bolt action while on a full run and can likely recharge the magazine if wished while watching the game and watching his step as he moves.

Does all this make any difference to the outcome in the field, possibly not, a bit of slowness to accomplish some of the tasks here or there may not.

Now to facing a DG charge, absolutely the double gives two sure shots (most of the time) without taking your eyes from the target. If the animal is close then the bolt user has to make sure of his first shot, if the animal starts the charge further away then he is not disadvantaged in so much as he should take his first shot to allow enough time to reload for another follow up, still 2 shots the same as a double user. For either user they will have to rely on their PH or another hunter to clean up if 2 are not enough unless the animal started its charge well out then the bolt user can put plenty of lead downrange!!!!!


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Postman
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: eagle27]
      #258417 - 31/12/14 01:38 PM

So my buffalo took 7 shots from a.500NE. The first shot was a solid at 85 yards, a "bore another one" shot with a Barnes Banded solid that in hindsight I shouldn't have taken. It went higher than it should have, in the rump on the left side, went diagonal through him and exited on his right shoulder at the base of the neck. The buff didn't so much as bat an eyelid at the shot. The second barrel went wild and didn't cut a hair. Two more "Hail Mary" shots just served to make noise and trim heavy thick reeds. Buffalo now gone, headed into the next county.

The next 6 shots were 3 days later when the Buffalo took his final annoyed stand, pissed as can be, at his tormentors that relentlessly persisted in following him. On the 3rd morning and 20km later we caught up with him and had a face off at 35 yards. My 1st shot of that 3rd morning went into the brisket directly facing us. The second shot went wild and grazed through the skin over his left eye. Shot 3 and 4,went lengthwise shot through the brisket. The next 2 shots were unleashed directly broadside into him after I reloaded on the run whilst skirting him. Loads of adrenalin. I barely remember reloading. Instantaneous and totally mechanized fluid movement. I only stopped shooting because one of the trackers grabbed me and said " that's enough, he's down".

Can a double be fast? Dang straight it can! How about those 3rd and fourth shots? Hell yeah!!

I would submit that one MUST practice LOTS!! Reloads should happen without any conscious thought process. It MUST be fluid and done totally without having to think about it. Admiring the shot MUST be discouraged until the smoke clears and multiple pieces of hot brass are on the ground.

Add in a heathy dose of fear and sense of self preservation, and it is amazing what can be done with a double!!!

Edited by Postman (31/12/14 01:43 PM)


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Ripp
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Postman]
      #258426 - 01/01/15 01:10 AM

Quote:

So my buffalo took 7 shots from a.500NE. The first shot was a solid at 85 yards, a "bore another one" shot with a Barnes Banded solid that in hindsight I shouldn't have taken. It went higher than it should have, in the rump on the left side, went diagonal through him and exited on his right shoulder at the base of the neck. The buff didn't so much as bat an eyelid at the shot. The second barrel went wild and didn't cut a hair. Two more "Hail Mary" shots just served to make noise and trim heavy thick reeds. Buffalo now gone, headed into the next county.

The next 6 shots were 3 days later when the Buffalo took his final annoyed stand, pissed as can be, at his tormentors that relentlessly persisted in following him. On the 3rd morning and 20km later we caught up with him and had a face off at 35 yards. My 1st shot of that 3rd morning went into the brisket directly facing us. The second shot went wild and grazed through the skin over his left eye. Shot 3 and 4,went lengthwise shot through the brisket. The next 2 shots were unleashed directly broadside into him after I reloaded on the run whilst skirting him. Loads of adrenalin. I barely remember reloading. Instantaneous and totally mechanized fluid movement. I only stopped shooting because one of the trackers grabbed me and said " that's enough, he's down".

Can a double be fast? Dang straight it can! How about those 3rd and fourth shots? Hell yeah!!

I would submit that one MUST practice LOTS!! Reloads should happen without any conscious thought process. It MUST be fluid and done totally without having to think about it. Admiring the shot MUST be discouraged until the smoke clears and multiple pieces of hot brass are on the ground.

Add in a heathy dose of fear and sense of self preservation, and it is amazing what can be done with a double!!!




It is amazing how much lead a buffalo can soak up once they are provoked or just pissed off.

I had a similar experience on my first buffalo-- ..we would run with the herd until they stopped then try to get in for a shot..this cat and mouse game went on for several hours before I finally got a broadside trotting shot at about 70 yards..hit him good in the lungs --he spun and ran into a clearing..I emptied my .416 into him running away with solids..two of the three exited out the front by his neck after taking them in the arse area..one we found inside which I still have in my trophy room..he finally dropped..walking up my ph told me to shoot him again which I did..when we were about 10 feet away my tracker who was just ahead of me made a huge jump in the air to get out of the way as the buff was attempting to get back on his feet..out of sheer instinct I pulled up and shot without really aiming hitting him in the spine and that was that..

About 2-3 days later we got into another herd..they had no idea we were there..pulled up and shot a huge bull again with the .416..he ran about 40 yards and tipped over..put in the insurance shot and that was it..DONE...great memories hunting those guys..

I can see both sides as to having the extra shots IF you have the time to deliver them..as stated when hunting birds with a double..but the time there is a third shot offered the birds are gone for most shooters. Same holds true in DG hunting..if you are in tight and do get a charge..usually not time for more than one shot anyway..sometimes if your lucky two..but think three shots off of a bolt is a pipe dream in most cases..

If the charge is coming from further away, frankly I'll take the bolt gun. Have read cases in longer charges in Africa or Alaska where had that 3rd shot not been immediately available bad things would have happened.

DO agree, both need to be really practiced a lot to be as good as you can be should the s**t hit the fan..

Ripp

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xausa
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ripp]
      #258454 - 01/01/15 11:06 PM

This was my last buffalo, a lone bull, who was taking a siesta in a large clump of bushes when rudely awakened by thrown rocks and shouts from the gunbearers. I was stationed slightly above the bushes on a hillside, and as he departed, he ran directly past me from three to nine o'clock, much like a Station Four shot at skeet.

I fired my wildcat .505 SRE bolt gun four times in rapid succession, three of the shots into a group behind his shoulder which could have been covered with a playing card. The buff stopped so quickly that he plowed up dirt with his nose.

Each of those shots approximated a .500 NE load (570 grain bullet at 2150 fps), and it took all four of them to stop him. I had a .458 Winchester Magnum double rifle with me back in camp, but was happy not to have used it.



I was a lifelong competitive shooter in NRA High Power competition, which requires rapid fire strings of ten shots in 60 and 70 seconds respectively at 200 and 300 yards. Much of this competition was fired with a Model 70 Winchester, so rapid fire with a bolt gun and rapid reloading the magazine are second nature to me. The butt of the rifle never left my shoulder during the entire sequence of events.


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Muskwa
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: xausa]
      #258467 - 02/01/15 05:54 AM



This makes for some interesting reading:

www.sportsafield.com/content/single-shots-dangerous-game


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gunbug
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Muskwa]
      #258474 - 02/01/15 11:45 AM

Interesting read but has anyone out there had a firing pin break in a bolt or any other action. Dan

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mauserand9mm
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: gunbug]
      #258479 - 02/01/15 06:59 PM

Quote:

Interesting read but has anyone out there had a firing pin break in a bolt or any other action. Dan




Likely not. But wasn't that the reason for development of double rifles? - the internals are duplicated so that you could have failure of one without affecting the other. I wonder whether this was just being ultra-conservative or whether early firearms had a reliability issue? (I don't think so though.) Having the second shot available quickly would also have been a bonus. Maybe bolt gun reliability (feeding?) was a reason for development of the double gun?


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xausa
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #258480 - 02/01/15 08:36 PM

Double rifles have existed since the flintlock era. They far preceded bolt rifles or even cartridge rifles. One reason for their perceived advantage over bolt guns was the habit of early bolt gun users of taking the rifle down from the shoulder to operate the bolt and glancing into the receiver to reassure themselves that the round had actually fed into the chamber. If you remove those factors, the advantage of a double rifle shrinks considerably.

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Postman
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: xausa]
      #258482 - 02/01/15 10:13 PM

I have seen failures in the field in both a double and a pump action rifle. The double failure was a light primer strike due to a weak firing pin spring. The first barrel went "click" but the second went "bang" resulting in one dead deer. The pump action rifle went click or sometimes bang for the same reason. Turns out the owner would clean the rifle at the end of deer season and then leave it cocked (unloaded) in the closet until the following year. I have yet to see or to experience a bolt action rifle failure that wasnt related to bad ammo.

Getting back to the speed question through, if one were to time me with a double or a bolt, I'd be faster with a bolt for 3 or more shots, at least until I ran it dry. The simple fact at least in me case, is that I grew up shooting bolt guns and my affliction (some might call it an addictive sickness) is for doubles. I just think they're way more cool and it has little to do with speeding.

Edited by Postman (02/01/15 10:26 PM)


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xausa
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: gunbug]
      #258485 - 03/01/15 02:36 AM

Quote:

Interesting read but has anyone out there had a firing pin break in a bolt or any other action. Dan




Doubles not infrequently came with spare firing pins in a trap pistol grip cap. The better grade of double comes with removable bushings in the standing breech, which allows firing pin replacement without disassembling the action. Presumably this was because the firing pins sometimes broke.

The Springfield 1903 was originally issued with spare parts, including a spare firing pin in a container under the trap butt plate. The removable firing pin tip on the Springfield striker was designed with broken firing pins in mind.

I have never experienced a broken firing pin with either one.

I have experienced a broken firing pin in my old pre-war Browning A-5 shotgun, which caused it to fire when the breech was closed, because the broken off tip had wedged in the firing pin hole. Not a pleasant thing to have happen, even in the hunting field.


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cordite
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: xausa]
      #258488 - 03/01/15 03:59 AM

This reminds me of the big bolt verses lever gun debate in US sporting magazines nearly 100 years ago. All sorts of timed fire comparisons were done to see which action type was faster. These speed tests had little in common with the day to day reality of using a rifle.
I firmly believe that it comes down to the individual. I love my double rifle but but if put in a dangerous situation I would take my bolt gun every time. That says more about me than it does about the merits of the two rifle types.


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Ripp
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Postman]
      #258503 - 03/01/15 10:33 AM

Quote:

The simple fact at least in me case, is that I grew up shooting bolt guns and my affliction (some might call it an addictive sickness) is for doubles. I just think they're way more cool and it has little to do with speeding.




Agree--I feel the same way even hunting birds with a double side by side shotgun vs an over-under or pump or semi-auto...just something cool about a side by side whether a shotgun or rifle..IMHO..

Plus, again IMHO, takes a little more practice to hit on a regular basis with a side by side shotgun vs an over-under shotgun..but once you hone in on a good double that fits, beware birds..

Ripp

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eagle27
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: mauserand9mm]
      #258507 - 03/01/15 11:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Interesting read but has anyone out there had a firing pin break in a bolt or any other action. Dan




Likely not. But wasn't that the reason for development of double rifles? - the internals are duplicated so that you could have failure of one without affecting the other. I wonder whether this was just being ultra-conservative or whether early firearms had a reliability issue? (I don't think so though.) Having the second shot available quickly would also have been a bonus. Maybe bolt gun reliability (feeding?) was a reason for development of the double gun?




The development of the double, the shotgun earlier than the rifled gun, was more likely to do with reliability of the cap and powder ignition for black powder and also for the early cartridge rounds. Back in the World Wars misfires and hangfires were not uncommon and the old African hunters wrote of miss-fires etc, Taylor stating he only ever bought his ammo in sealed tins and trusted the British ammo most for reliability of ignition. IMO the double, with its twin locks, was likely developed more for giving the hunter a chance of at least one ignition of his charge or cartridge rather than any consideration of the gun breaking down mechanically.

In my experience over many years of using and repairing firearms the double shotguns suffered broken leaf springs (hammers and top leaver) and firing pins more than any other guns I ever worked on. In fact judging by the stocks of springs and pins usually maintained by retailers and gunsmiths for doubles it was obviously a common theme. Whether this applies to the expensive bespoke double rifle which should have been made with best steel and care I don't know, and maybe the fact that shotguns will fire vastly more rounds than a double rifle possibly accounts for the statistics of broken springs and pins.

I never came across complete failure of coil springs used in bolt actions, on the odd occasion a weakening firing pin spring gave lighter strikes resulting in a misfire every now and again, a warning to get the spring replaced, but this was rare.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ripp]
      #258531 - 03/01/15 05:04 PM

Quote:

I have and do shoot both. I do agree with some of what is stated. All things being equal there is NO doubt a double is faster. But in today's world of hunting dangerous game I really feel the NEED for a double is long gone as there is typically a PH there to back you up after the first shot. Some back you up whether you want them to or not, or so I hear..

Using a double certainly has a different feel to the hunt. It lets your mind take you back a bit in time which is fun and nostalgic. When I go back I will be taking both..but do plan to use the double most of the time..

Ripp




Picture this.

You can see the cow elephant waiting behind a thorn tree, watching its back trail, waiting to ambush anyone following it. Yoiu can see its rough outline but not enough to shoot. The PH tells you to go forward, around the tree and shoot the cow elephant. You will be about 8 feet away from it when you go around the tree ...

I can tell you, having a big bore double rifle, gives one a lot more confidence than any bolt action will in such a circumstance.

Also not all of us hunt dangerous game only in the company of a guide or PH. Many hunt solo. No back up then.

Haven't read the article yet, but a problem is many dudes buy a rifle before their safari, hardly shoot it, then hunt with it, then sell it when they get home. They really have no experience with it or a DR. Compare this to eg the expert guys who shoot a lot of BGRC. Lots and lots of good practice. A huge difference to the one off shooter.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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DUGABOY1
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ripp]
      #258589 - 04/01/15 05:20 PM

Quote:

To help verify the claim that the double rifle offers a faster second shot than a bolt gun, I reached out to my friend Monty Kalogeras, owner of Safari Shooting School outside Mason, Texas. Monty has become well known for helping to train hunters who want to improve their shooting skills, and each year he helps many clients learn to shoot and handle big bore rifles before they travel to remote regions of the world in the pursuit of dangerous game.>>>snip




Quote:

“I timed shooters for almost two years to see which type of rifle allowed them to deliver the fastest aimed follow-up shot,” he says. The key word is aimed. It’s not simply a matter of making the gun go boom a second time but a matter of delivering an accurate shot, coming down from recoil and sending a second shot into the target that is in the right place to stop a charge.




First off, this article assumes the animal will be stopped with only two shots, and that is rarely the case with buffalo. Having said that lets assume a buffalo will be stopped with only two shots and that as Monty says "the key word is AIMED shots" in my opinion, the key word is just as important all shooters no matter what type of rife you are shooting in that situation. With that in mind, I would say for the first two AIMED shots the second shot would be easier/faster when only recovering from recoil of the first shot and pulling the trigger on the second shot by simply changing triggers than having to work a bolt after recovering from the recoil of the first shot and getting back on target for the second shot.

Now lets assume the buffalo needs four shots to stop or turn. In this case it has been proven by the PH testing that a man who is good with a double rifle is at no disadvantage for four shot to a man that is equally skilled with a big bore bolt rifle. First shot being equal, while the second shot with the double is faster, and about equal to the bolt rife shooter for shot three and faster again for shot four with the double. The speed is of no value if the bullets do not go where they will do the most good.

At shoots by the DRSS, this has been tested several times and the double has won every time,
This shoot is done with the double rifle loaded, and the both rifle with one in the chamber and three in the magazine. The kill zone is an 8 inch black target at 25 yds with a 2 inch ten ring in the center. This allows a max score of 40 points if all four shot hit the ten ring, and any shot that misses the black is not counted. The shooters are all individually timed with a stop watch, timing starts when each shooter fires the first shot, and stops when shot four is fired, with everyone shooting at the same time for noise distraction. Timed and scored for accuracy!

I took third place with four shot fired in four seconds flat, and I forgot that the rifle I was shooting had an automatic safety, and tried to fire shot three with the safety on costing me time. My score was 36 out of a possible 40 points and if I had been facing a lion charge that safety could have cost me my life. Even with the safety I beat every bolt rifle on the line for time, and the only both that beat me for score was slower that I by two seconds.

I was severely chastised by one of the members here, for having a double rifle that I had owned for some 8 years, with the auto feature not disengaged, when I had been recommending the auto feature be disengaged to others for years. My only excuse is that was not my go to DGR, and procrastination was my mistake.

In any event IMO the double is faster for the first two shots than a bolt rifle but the bullets must go where they do the job, or the speed is a moot point

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #258591 - 04/01/15 05:37 PM

At the Heym International Challenge in 2013 they had some really cool charging animal computer generated videos on a big screen. A double rifle had been fitted with a laser in one of the barrels and registered kill shots or not. If you killed it it dropped. If you didn't it killed you. An advantage was unlimited shots.

I dropped all the elephants and most of the buffalo with one or two shots, ie brain shots. But most of the lions got me, even when I went into spray and pray mode ie remember you could just pull the trigger multiple times.

Shows the difference in experience. Having shot buffalo and elephant, and having trained for the right bullet placement. Never hunted lion yet, I would have assumed the bullet placement was easier ... :O

A bit off topic but quite relevant. The shooting HAD to be quick. A bolt action would not have cut it at all.

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eagle27
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #258592 - 04/01/15 07:21 PM


“Another thing to remember about doubles is that, even if you’re faster on the second shot, you’re also faster to an empty gun,” he says. “Most dead hunters that are found after being killed by dangerous game have empty rifles.”

I think the quote above taken from the article is quite relevant and as I mentioned in my first post on this discussion, it is all very well doing comparative tests on the range to see which is the fastest to fire aimed effective shots but quite different under stress in the field. The double is just not that easy to reload when on the move. If the gun is a not an ejector it has to be tipped to empty the chambers or the empty cases have to be 'plucked' by hand and then the gun held in such a position so the new cartridges dropped into the chambers will stay there until the gun is closed. All the while the double gun is broken open with barrels facing in a different direction to the stock and lock. Try this on the run in brush or over uneven ground. I guarantee the double user will be focused on his gun and not the animal or likely the ground he is traversing if he tries to reload on the run, or, he will stand and reload before following the PH or arrive at the new position and then complete a reload.

What is often noticeable in video of hunters dealing with their first shot from a double on an animal whether it is just standing or in a charge, is that the second barrel is fired off almost obligatory. Often the animal has reacted to the first shot by turning or dropping but the hunter has committed to firing off the second barrel and likely is not effective as it should have been. Now he does have an empty gun and if the animal is not down or gets up again invariably the PH wants to change position for the hunter to get a better shot or the PH finishes the fight with either his double (if he hasn't already fired it) or his bolt gun with a good few shots available to get quickly away.

Dugaboy1 makes the point that because it is possible to get the second shot away with a double quicker than a bolt gun, the double user can also undertake the reloading sequence quicker and is usually only disadvantaged in time with his 3rd shot but catches up again with his 4th. All too true but again I must make the point that has only been shown on the range, the multitude of video footage around seems to show differently when in the field even with some very experienced double users.

I'm a left handed bolt gun user so disadvantaged anyway (I shoot right-handed guns) but I sure as hell like the gun with four up and one I don't need to take my eyes off the animal or the countryside to use those four shots if required. Yes in a close in charge a double would be reassuring but I would ask myself, if I can't stop the charge with a well aimed first is my second attempt going to be any better?


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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: eagle27]
      #258595 - 04/01/15 10:11 PM

A question most people ignore. Is how many aimed shots can you get off in a close charge? How many seconds does it take for a lion, leopard, elephant or buffalo to cover a short distance?

Having a magazine full of cartridges is usually redundant in these circumstances.

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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #258605 - 05/01/15 03:32 AM

Recently, a rapid-fire video was presented here at Nitroexpress with a variety of bolt guns as well as a double rifle being fired rapidly on falling plates, by a countryman of mine.

Watching this video, it is READILY apparent that the DR, a .470 no less was MUCH faster than the fastest blot gun. Too, the bolt .450 showed a once-in-a-lifetime jam, exactly when the second shot was needed!

This lad was VERY good with both systems, but excelled with the DR, as he should!

I'm sure you guys know the video I speak of. Perhaps someone remembers the title and can thus find it to perhaps re-post here in this thread.

Talking the various points, good and bad is fine, but seeing is quite - visual.

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Postman
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DarylS]
      #258616 - 05/01/15 04:56 AM

i recall seeing that video....... how could I possibly describe it other than "gosh dang fast!!!!". Don't remember who the shooter was, but he was sooooooo fast with a double, it made me want to just hang it up and crawl into a hole. Damn! that dude was FAST!!!,

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: eagle27]
      #258617 - 05/01/15 04:57 AM

Quote:


“Another thing to remember about doubles is that, even if you’re faster on the second shot, you’re also faster to an empty gun,” he says. “Most dead hunters that are found after being killed by dangerous game have empty rifles.”




He does say most dead hunters are found with empty guns, BUT he doesn’t say most dead hunters are found dead with an empty double rifle! I would bet that most hunters killed by dangerous game were using bolt rifles simply due to the fact that there are far more hunters using bolt rifles than doubles. I would bet also that at least more than a few of the bolt rifles were jammed and not empty.

Quote:

I think the quote above taken from the article is quite relevant and as I mentioned in my first post on this discussion, it is all very well doing comparative tests on the range to see which is the fastest to fire aimed effective shots but quite different under stress in the field. The double is just not that easy to reload when on the move. If the gun is a not an ejector it has to be tipped to empty the chambers or the empty cases have to be 'plucked' by hand and then the gun held in such a position so the new cartridges dropped into the chambers will stay there until the gun is closed. All the while the double gun is broken open with barrels facing in a different direction to the stock and lock. Try this on the run in brush or over uneven ground. I guarantee the double user will be focused on his gun and not the animal or likely the ground he is traversing if he tries to reload on the run, or, he will stand and reload before following the PH or arrive at the new position and then complete a reload.




The above paragraph is very true but not relevant to the article we are discussing! The subject is stopping a charge, not chasing an animal through the bush. In a charge situation you normally stand your ground and shoot till the threat is over.

The tests of the licensing bodies that test the shooting skills of people wanting to be issued a PH license are testing the way I described for stopping a CHARGE. Even in a follow-up of a wounded the rifles are reloaded before one goes into the weeds, and if the animal charges the drill is still the same stand and shoot. The testing bodies thought originally that the doubles would be at a disadvantage to the bolt rifle shooters in the charge stopping test, and found in short order the double was at no disadvantage to the bolt shooters for two shots, but in fact faster. So they tried the double loaded and the bolt with one in the chamber and three down to see if that was better for four shots than the double. It turned out that the double were faster for shot two, and about even for the most part for shot three and faster again for shot four.

I will admit that I think in these test of PH applicants those who already owned double rifles may have been far more experienced than the young men shooting a conglomeration of bolt rifles, many of which may have been prone to jamming. However all our tests at the DRSS were shot by experienced shooters of both types of rifles and most long time hunters of all game including dangerous ones.

Loading while running is just as hard for the bolt rifle guy as it is for the double rifle guy. Even in a standing charge stopping, the bolt rifle must be re-loaded after every shot with working the bolt, while the double fires two shots before a re-load, and in a charge situation one is static while re-loading only after the second shot. The tests have found that the double is about even with the bolt for shot four after a re-load, and faster again for shot four.

If these tests are so invalid, how would you go about testing the timing?

In the actual charge stopping one would have to have a timer with a stop watch behind both shooters timing his shots, and then look at the bullet holes on the animal which would be indistinguishable because they would all be on the same animal.

The range testing has it’s draw-backs but there is no other way to do it IMO, and the article we are discussing was a range test.

The fact is with everyone shooting at his own target and trying to shoot faster than everyone else does create stress on the shooter. We had people jam their bolt rifles, we had people drop cartridges while re-loading but out of 20 shooters all shooting simultaneously the top three were double rifle shooters, and the accuracy scores were better for the doubles for four shots than most of the bolt rifle shooters. The bolt shooters who scored better in the accuracy test portion, were way back in TIME behind all the double shooters.

The fact is if humans are involved with mechanical things, crap happens, and there is no way of testing anything that is 100% reliable!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #258618 - 05/01/15 05:08 AM

So if it were possible to build a Robinson Arms self loader in a DG caliber with a stock shape that under incredibly heavy recoil wouldn't create a dental work / broken cheek bone nightmare for the shooter at a suitable weight that allows a full day of carrying it in the field all day, we' d have something to recon with on the speed front! Failing that, I'm going to continue with my double affliction / addiction, and use my fancy bolt rilfes for long range caribou...... just sayin.........

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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Postman]
      #258619 - 05/01/15 06:50 AM

Quote:

So if it were possible to build a Robinson Arms self loader in a DG caliber with a stock shape that under incredibly heavy recoil wouldn't create a dental work / broken cheek bone nightmare for the shooter at a suitable weight that allows a full day of carrying it in the field all day, we' d have something to recon with on the speed front! Failing that, I'm going to continue with my double affliction / addiction, and use my fancy bolt rilfes for long range caribou...... just sayin.........




.........................................Agreed!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #258621 - 05/01/15 09:58 AM

LOL - spot-on, Postman

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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #258645 - 05/01/15 11:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:


“Another thing to remember about doubles is that, even if you’re faster on the second shot, you’re also faster to an empty gun,” he says. “Most dead hunters that are found after being killed by dangerous game have empty rifles.”




He does say most dead hunters are found with empty guns, BUT he doesn’t say most dead hunters are found dead with an empty double rifle! I would bet that most hunters killed by dangerous game were using bolt rifles simply due to the fact that there are far more hunters using bolt rifles than doubles. I would bet also that at least more than a few of the bolt rifles were jammed and not empty.

Quote:






Personally I would like to know who "all these dead hunters" are irrespective of whether the rifles are loaded or empty. To me this is made up bullshit statement and lacking any evidence value.

Just how many clients have been killed in the last few decades to justify this claim?

As for the number of PHs killed, well again, I would like to know where the "statistic" comes from, how about some numbers and evidence to back up the claim ie by the writer.

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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DarylS]
      #258646 - 05/01/15 11:24 PM

So from this debate I am guessing the Fuchs magazine bolt action double rifle is the perfect DG after all.

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DarylS]
      #258648 - 05/01/15 11:30 PM

Quote:

Recently, a rapid-fire video was presented here at Nitroexpress with a variety of bolt guns as well as a double rifle being fired rapidly on falling plates, by a countryman of mine.

Watching this video, it is READILY apparent that the DR, a .470 no less was MUCH faster than the fastest blot gun. Too, the bolt .450 showed a once-in-a-lifetime jam, exactly when the second shot was needed!

This lad was VERY good with both systems, but excelled with the DR, as he should!

I'm sure you guys know the video I speak of. Perhaps someone remembers the title and can thus find it to perhaps re-post here in this thread.

Talking the various points, good and bad is fine, but seeing is quite - visual.




The video is probably the one on this thread.

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Ripp
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: NitroX]
      #258657 - 06/01/15 01:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


“Another thing to remember about doubles is that, even if you’re faster on the second shot, you’re also faster to an empty gun,” he says. “Most dead hunters that are found after being killed by dangerous game have empty rifles.”




He does say most dead hunters are found with empty guns, BUT he doesn’t say most dead hunters are found dead with an empty double rifle! I would bet that most hunters killed by dangerous game were using bolt rifles simply due to the fact that there are far more hunters using bolt rifles than doubles. I would bet also that at least more than a few of the bolt rifles were jammed and not empty.

Quote:






Personally I would like to know who "all these dead hunters" are irrespective of whether the rifles are loaded or empty. To me this is made up bullshit statement and lacking any evidence value.

Just how many clients have been killed in the last few decades to justify this claim?

As for the number of PHs killed, well again, I would like to know where the "statistic" comes from, how about some numbers and evidence to back up the claim ie by the writer.




Agree--don't know of or have heard of clients with empty rifles that are dead--know it happens but guessing its about a rare as hearing a truthful statement from Obama..

Ripp

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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ripp]
      #258740 - 07/01/15 05:29 PM

Seventh post and finally read the advertisement for a shooting school, oops article.

Quote:

“If you take a shooter that fires a gun with their weight on their back leg or from a neutral stance they’re not going to be fast with any big gun, bolt or double,” Monty says. “You have to have an aggressive stance with your weight forward so that the gun doesn’t push you off balance.” Learning to improve stance makes you faster with any hard-kicking rifle that you shoot from an off-hand position, and it reduces muzzle rise.





Yep they should learn how to shoot.

Quote:

“Most shooters do better with a bolt gun immediately because that’s what they’re used to shooting,” Monty says. “They understand the mechanics. That doesn’t mean they won’t be able to shoot a double well, but they need to learn proper mechanics for shooting a double rifle, which are different than a bolt-action.”
.
For the shooter that is very skilled with both rifle types and has been trained to quickly shoot both a double and a bolt gun, Monty says that the double typically has a speed advantage for the second shot, but that’s assuming you have a shooter who has trained extensively with both guns and who has the proper stance and handles recoil effectively. Such shooters are very rare, and for the majority of the shooting public, our personal skill sets make us faster with one rifle type.
.
I fully understand this because I attended Monty’s school myself. Because I have shot many, many more bolt guns than double rifles, I was naturally slower with a double. Simply put, the mechanics weren’t there, and I needed help from a professional to help me walk through the process and learn the proper technique.





... maybe they should just try shooting a side by side or under and over shotgun on clays. Other than recoil, and the need to aim with a rifle, same 'mechanics'. Some time on clays would mean no need to pay for a shooting course.

Quote:

I can consistently deliver two aimed shots with my .450-400 Nitro Express Heym double in 1.1 seconds, but it’s rare that I can touch 2 seconds for two shots with my .500 Nitro Express Heym.”





Doesn't the same apply to say a .416 Remington and a .500 Jeffery? See my earlier comment on a thread about recoil and "logic".

Quote:

“Another thing to remember about doubles is that, even if you’re faster on the second shot, you’re also faster to an empty gun,” he says. “Most dead hunters that are found after being killed by dangerous game have empty rifles."




What a silly statement. I thought the writer was talking about "aimed" shots.

And the fact is a made up "statistic" anyway.

Quote:

No matter which action you choose, learning proper technique and practicing often is the key to saving your life.




Yep every safari is a death defying, facing black death charges experience, so this shooting school is a must before a safari.

Enjoyed my seventh post rant.

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Ash
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ripp]
      #258768 - 08/01/15 04:10 AM

Doesn't matter what caliber, and I've never used a double, but bet I can get 2 aimed shots off quicker than a semi auto .22lr..

Just aim and....pull both triggers

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DUGABOY1
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ash]
      #258779 - 08/01/15 06:30 AM

Quote:

Doesn't matter what caliber, and I've never used a double, but bet I can get 2 aimed shots off quicker than a semi auto .22lr..

Just aim and....pull both triggers




......................................................Right!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #258780 - 08/01/15 06:35 AM

Having said that I am NOT going to ever try and double any, regardless of caliber! I like shoulder and stocks too much to risk damaging either

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Ripp
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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ash]
      #258811 - 09/01/15 01:09 AM

Quote:

Having said that I am NOT going to ever try and double any, regardless of caliber! I like shoulder and stocks too much to risk damaging either




Bought a used 10 gauge double shotgun years ago--took it out to test fire it. Pulled the trigger and both went off, certainly got my attention..

Quick trip to the gunsmith and all is well..

Ripp

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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: Ripp]
      #258813 - 09/01/15 02:22 AM

Old John, speaking of the late John Buhmiller, used to toughen up for his African rifles using a Rigby SXS .450 BPE. Cast bullets were cheap to make and Dupont BP also cheap and easily available, thus the use of the black powder rifle.

In order to increase the recoil to similar levels as the smokeless guns, he loaded his cases full of BP and 500gr. cast bullets. He also tied a block of wood between the triggers so both would go at the same time. Pulling the front trigger would set of the left barrel as well - doubling the recoil, of course. He noted this left him in fine shape for shooting the smokeless guns, such as the .505 and .450 magnums he used quite considerably.

He also noted, (as I foolishly found myself when a kid) that trying to pull both triggers at once, usually left one looking for bandades and/or stitches for the top of the second finger. The recoil drives the gun rearwards, which drives the back side of the front trigger into the top of the second finger. The result is usually a deep cut - was for me, and I had only fired a pair of 2 3/4" 1 1/2oz mag. loads while out European Hare shooting. I missed.

I realize the double pull noted in the above post was in jest, but just in case someone thought they'd try it, I mention this.

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Daryl


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Re: Speed Test--Double vs Bolt Rifle..per RIFLE SHOOTER Mag [Re: DarylS]
      #259178 - 19/01/15 05:30 AM

I think the point made here is that at the end of the day it is all down to what you feel comfortable with, a point that has not been covered here is the fact that a bolt rifle can never be as well balanced as a double (side by side that is) and also that for a given barrel length a double is 6" shorter and quick to handle than a clumsy bolt rifle, given the better balance it follows that when under duress a shooter would stand more chance of hitting the target with a double, this is ,of course, ignoring the fact that most shooters that use a bolt gun seem to also favour a telescopic sight, BUT, I have seen video's where an inexperienced shooter using a double for the first time? has pulled the front trigger again! Not the best thing to do if you want to survive! It is all down to what you are familiar with. I have never heard of a charge that started from more than 25 Yds away, so that does away with the perceived advantage of more than two shots. Having a magazine full of rounds (4or5) also tends to make a jumpy shooter open up at a more doubtful shot as well, but that is also due to the cost of a 21 day safari and the need to take a trophy home.

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