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bonanza
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.375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion
      #25097 - 25/01/05 04:33 AM

If I were to convert my .375 H&H to flanged, can I still shoot .375 H&H in it?

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new_guy
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: bonanza]
      #25110 - 25/01/05 08:01 AM

Seems that from a previous post, that's not a viable conversion - without sleeving the chamber.

But if in theory it were, No, you wouldn't be able to shoot the belted version in the flanged chamber. The recess for the rim wouldn't be deep enough to accomodate the belt.

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4seventy
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: bonanza]
      #25111 - 25/01/05 08:36 AM

In reply to:

If I were to convert my .375 H&H to flanged,




Bonanza, why would you want to do this.?
The only reason IMO would be if the gun was failing to extract the belted cases reliabley.
If extraction is not causing any problems I would stay with the belted case.


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new_guy
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: 4seventy]
      #25113 - 25/01/05 09:19 AM

And we've all seen how many documented or reported cases there has been of that... (failed ejection of belted cartridges.)

By my informal questioning, I've come up with exactly zero that have heard of or seen a belted cartridge slip by the ejector. Of course, I welcome the opportunity to stand corrected if anyone can point to a specific case in which this has happened.

Personally, I still believe this stems from John Taylor's writings in which he identified the theoretical scenario in which it could happen.

I've got DRs in 470 and 375 Belted, so I've got no beef either way... both of mine work fine.

PS - before the pressure argument gets going...

Kynoch loads their Belted at 19.5 tpi (max)
and their flanged at 18 tpi (max).

Seem minimal to me and I bet your gun would never know the difference either.

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Edited by new_guy (25/01/05 09:23 AM)


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new_guy
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: bonanza]
      #25114 - 25/01/05 09:29 AM

although... the 500//416 necked down to 375 could make for some interesting velocities at minimal pressures.

We'd have to have a reamer made and no doubt the guns re-regulated, but we could rechamber an old barrel for kicks.

Heck, how much is a custom reamer? A couple hundred bucks?

I'm pretty sure i've got an extra 375 barrel... anyone interested?

Actually, it appears that the pressure for the 500/416 is higher than the belted 375.

39,885 psi (2,750 bar), Copper crusher method
44,962 psi (3,100 bar), Piezzo method
Bullet: Woodleigh softpoint and solid 410 grs (26.6g)
Velocity: 2,330 ft/sec (710m/s)
Energy at muzzle: 4,940 Ft lb (6,700 J)

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Edited by new_guy (25/01/05 09:38 AM)


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4seventy
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: new_guy]
      #25115 - 25/01/05 09:50 AM

In reply to:

By my informal questioning, I've come up with exactly zero that have heard of or seen a belted cartridge slip by the ejector. Of course, I welcome the opportunity to stand corrected if anyone can point to a specific case in which this has happened.

Personally, I still believe this stems from John Taylor's writings in which he identified the theoretical scenario in which it could happen.





IMO regarding rimless or belted cartridges, much has to do with how well the extractor is designed and made.

An extractor for a flanged case can be made poorly and yet still function well but the same cannot be said for a poorly made extractor for a rimless case.

From what I've seen, some doubles chambered for rimless cases work fine where extraction is concerned.

The rimless cases in double rifle thing is IMO similar to some of the other supposed no-no things like single triggers, O/U's, ejectors etc.


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DoubleD
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: bonanza]
      #25141 - 25/01/05 04:32 PM

In reply to:

If I were to convert my .375 H&H to flanged, can I still shoot .375 H&H in it?




To answer the question...no.


.375 Flanged Magnum NE in a .375 Flanged Magnum NE chamber.


.375 H&H in a .375 Flanged Magnum NE chamber.

The belt stops it from going all the way in the chamber


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AussieMike
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: DoubleD]
      #25143 - 25/01/05 04:59 PM

But, if you turn the belt off in a lathe (or using a mandril in an electric drill and a file, you can. And, in my experience (1 rifle) the debelted cases often extract as the rim is of belt diameter and often catches on the rim. Its a cheap way to practice, and case life is way better than Bertrams (8+ reloads vs 3-4).

mike


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4seventy
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: AussieMike]
      #25145 - 25/01/05 05:15 PM

In reply to:

But, if you turn the belt off in a lathe (or using a mandril in an electric drill and a file, you can.




Thickness of the remaining "rim" after the belt has been removed would surely be less than the rim on the true flanged case?
If so you would need to be sure to set the headspace with the shoulder IMO.


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bonanza
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: 4seventy]
      #25166 - 26/01/05 01:46 AM

Excellent discussion on the more technical aspects of chambering! This was mostly a academic question, as I have never, repeat never had an extraction problem.


--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"


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AussieMike
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: 4seventy]
      #25262 - 28/01/05 01:13 AM

I thought you always headspaced belted cartridges off the shoulder to avoid problems with uneven and burred belts and I suspect that most of my rimmed cases are headspaced on the shoulder after reloading.


If you had a deep 375 Flanged chamber you could fireform cases with a reduced load and projectile seated into the rifling.


mike


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4seventy
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: AussieMike]
      #25266 - 28/01/05 01:42 AM

In reply to:

I thought you always headspaced belted cartridges off the shoulder to avoid problems with uneven and burred belts and I suspect that most of my rimmed cases are headspaced on the shoulder after reloading.





Yeah, ok with bolt guns.
But doubles can sometimes be a different story IMO.


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AfricanHunter
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: DoubleD]
      #25337 - 29/01/05 01:41 AM

I might have to disagree with your response. The difference might be in how the job is done and by whom.

In '75 I took a H&H Royal ejector, H&H mounted Ajack 'scope that had been converted by them from .300 flanged Mag to . 300 H&H Belted. I could still use the flanged cartridge in it and I did. The converted ejectors seemed to work fine and never failed at the range. However, since I had a lot of brass I took the flanged on the trip.

With the flanged brass it does leave the area of the belt unsupported, but most if not all of that area is solid. I never experienced any problem in the 10 years or so I had the rifle.


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Marrakai
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: AfricanHunter]
      #25392 - 29/01/05 06:05 PM

Holy Snappers, AH, you fired flanged cartridges in a belted chamber??! ...in a valuable Holland Royal???! ...for ten years???! ...and got away with it???! Man, I dunno whether to be shit-scared, or impressed!! Either way, I'm just slowly shakin' my head....

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Marrakai
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unspellable
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: AussieMike]
      #25503 - 01/02/05 08:48 AM

The original purpose of the belt was for head spacing. The first cartridges with belts (I think the 375 H&H was the second such.) had either no shoulder or as in the 375 H&H a shoulder that had too gentle a taper to provide good head spacing. In later years the belt came to be erroneously associated with more powerful cartridges. It then became an advertising gimmick to put a belt on your super duper 900 yard elk blaster even though the cartridge was likley to have enough taper in the shoulder to head space correctly on the shoulder. Today some 375 H&H rifles actaully head space on the shoulder although the correct method is to head space on the belt.

The best example of head spacing on the belt today is probably the 458 Winchester.

There is also the 450 Marlin with a rather wide belt, the purpose of which is to prevent chambering it in a 45-70.


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DarylS
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: unspellable]
      #78401 - 11/05/07 01:58 AM

Belts are a pain in the posterier, unless needed, as in the .458 and .450 Marlin. Even in the H&H ctgs., there is sufficient shoulder for headspacing, but not for hamfisted handloaders, or sloppy factory ammo.
; The problem with belts, Malin's new ctg. aside(haven't measured any of those), is that headspace containment with them is lousey to say the least. For expample, most rimless cases have a SAAMI standard of +.006" maximum headspace for factory rifles and ammo. The belts on today's magnum ctgs. varies from .012" to .024" difference, a full .012" slop being allowed, double alowable headspace for rimless rounds. When one fires a round with excessive headspace, the cast stretches from just above the case web, to shove the shoulder against the chamber's shoulder, located up to .012" ahead of the case's. If one relies on the belt for headspacing and subsequently shoves that new shoudler back when reloading it, it against stretches forward upon firing and one suffers short life from the cases as they split above the case web. This is why some people only get 2 or 3 firings form their belted wonders. It is excessive headspace that causes case head separations, not high pressure. We hates belted cases. All bottle/necked rounds should be rimless.
; Aussie Mike knows.
; The rim of a belted case has a nominal measurement of .532" standard. That can and does vary slighlty, as to case manufacture. As the head diameter of a case with the belt turned off being .513" or less, even down to .505" (depending on mfg'r's own standards - some are as loose as Loosee), the larger rim is captured by a close fitting extractor of the Flanged-ctg. chambered rifle.
: I would NOT shoot a non-belted case in a belted chamber with anything but a squib load, probably only with "Light" cast bullet loads.
: If .375H&H brass with belts turned off, properly fit the .375 Flanged chamber, I see no problems with using that brass for practise. I would, however use only flanged brass for 'serious' work, as the remaining rim of a previously belted case is not very large and if one was a bit sticky, or the extractor a bit wobbly, it might slip due to only .010" to .015" purchase per side.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Marrakai
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: DarylS]
      #78468 - 11/05/07 11:13 PM

Daryl:
I sorta disagree, in that you have rightly described excessive head-space as being a 'pain in the posterior', not the belted case per se. Excessive head-space will accelerate head-separations in rimless, belted, and flanged cases, without discrimination.

Really, you are describing sloppy manufacturing tolerances in both chamber and cartridge dimensions, which is not a design fault of the belted case.

Personally, I reckon belted cases are great. The only rifle I currently own chambered for a belted case, the .416 Taylor, returns more than a dozen reloads with necked-up .338 Winchester brass until the primer-pockets begin to feel a little 'easy' and I toss 'em. Never had a head separation. Ever! You can't beat that!

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Marrakai
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xausa
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: Marrakai]
      #78474 - 11/05/07 11:47 PM

Last year I bought a .458 Winchester Magnum barrel for the No. 1 Ruger off the internet, fitted it to a No. 3 Ruger action and had it rechambered to .450 C&W, which is my rimmed version of the .450 Watts Magnum, using .375 H&H Flanged brass and .458 bullets. I equipped the rifle with a .45-70 extractor.

Once, just as an experiment, I loaded a .450 Watts belted case into the chamber, and lo and behold, it not only fit, but fired and extracted perfectly. I now have a rifle which will cheerfully digest both rimmed and rimless belted cases, including the .458 Winchester Magnum cases it was originally chambered for. I refer to it as X-Caliber, since it will accomodate so many varieties. I haven't tried .410 shotshells, but I suspect they would function, too.


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DarylS
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: Marrakai]
      #78478 - 12/05/07 02:11 AM

Design is different from the end product received in mnay situations. Design is good when it meets and solves a problem. Having a sloppily made belted case (all Amercian made brass that I've tested) is not a good answer to a problem that doesn't exist in bottlenecked rounds.
: Getting 12 loads from your .416 Taylor is pretty good. If you are shoving the shoudlers back at all, each time you load, you are not shoving them back more than a thou. or two.
: My .458 2" brass has between 60 and 75 firings per case. Mind you, pressures are lower than most magnums are loaded to and case stretch isn't bad. I am still using the original 240 rounds of brass I bought in 1976 when I picked up that rifle. After 15,000 rounds I retired the original barrel, bought a new one and the reamer. My brass has been annealed 5 or 6 times now. I do lose the odd one with a neck split. This round needs the belt and that 1970's brass was slighlty better made than today's belted brass. 2,060fps with 510gr. SP's shows my loads aren't THAT light.
: Minimum dies made today can easily shove the shoulder of a case fired from a max. chamber'd rifle, back .100". Doing this each time the round is fired, will result in splits after 2 firings. Some guys get 3 to 5 from their magnums, with some brass, not so much with others before seeing the bright ring of death.
: You are right in that excessive headspace causes spits in all types of case types. Trouble is, many bleted cases from a lot of 100 for example, already have excessive headspace - nothing to do with the chamber as it's probably within specs. Design and what you get are two different things here.
: Belts for no reason other than advertizments are of no benefit - why have them. Note that the new crowd of magnums don't have belts. Belts are an abomination on rounds that don't need them and that includes all belted bottleneck cases today. The reason they are bad, is due to sloppy mfg'ering and they give people an excuse for sloppy handloading. Wiht a rimless casse, you have to be careful not to shove the shoulder back too far. You should use the same caution with belted cases. Case life, good or bad, is the end result.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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DUGABOY1
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: bonanza]
      #78502 - 12/05/07 08:10 AM

Gentlemen, there is a lot of advice posted here, and most is good, some is not well thought out, and some is useless! The question is, if I convert my 375 H&H double to 375 Flanged mag, can I still shoot the belted case in the chamber! The answer is NO!

The Flanged chamber will not accept the belt in the flanged chamber, and the extractor wouldn’t reach the rim, for extraction, even if it would.

I don’t have the drawings of the two cases in front of me as I write this, but if memory serves, the case of the flanged is longer than the belted case, though this is not a big deal. The 375 H&H belted Mag chamber can be modified to a flanged chamber. If done properly, it will work like a charm. The chamber end of the barrels have to be back bored just deep enough to remove the belt area of the chamber, and the diameter only slightly narrower than the rim of the rim of the flanged case, and cut fine threads in the wall. Then a bottom of the boreing faced off square in the bottom of the cylinder. Now make a cylinder threaded to fit the threaded portion of the chamber’s back boreing. The bore through the cylinder just under the size of the head area of the flanged case. Once installed in the barrel butt, cut the cylinder off flush with the face of the original barrels, run a Flanged chambering reamer into the chamber to cut the excess out of the bushing area, and cut for the extractor, then cut the recess for the rim of the flanged case, till the case headspaces in the rifle! The original extractor can usually be used because the rim on the flanged case will require enough steel from it be removed to get rid of the old pall area for the belted case. Some times a little throat lengthening may be needed. With the difference in the speed of the flanged can be adjusted with handloading, and may shoot factory with no adjustment in load at all.

Now I have a question ! Why do you want to do this? The work is involved, and expensive, and The brass, and ammo availability are dismal at best, and the 375 H&H isn’t generally used for dangerous game in a double anyway, and if the rifle ejects properly anyway, it is not a cost effective repair. With a double chambered for a cartridge like the 458 Win Mag, this makes sense, because the chambering reamer of the 450NE 3 1/4", removes enough of the wall to clean out the chamber area of the 458 win mag. Sometimes re-regulating is needed, but the work on the chambers is not a difficult operation, and many rifles do not even need re-regulating, and you have a better rifle at fairly low cost! The 375H&H rechambering is not only more work, but you must find someone who knows what he’s about to do it, and far more costly!


--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (14/05/07 05:33 AM)


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mickey
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #78524 - 12/05/07 10:29 AM

Isn't the 375 Flanged larger in diameter than the belted? Particularly in the base and neck areas.

Seems as though you would have to wrap silly putty around the belted to keep it from rattling around.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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DUGABOY1
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: mickey]
      #78560 - 13/05/07 05:23 AM

Quote:

Isn't the 375 Flanged larger in diameter than the belted? Particularly in the base and neck areas.

Seems as though you would have to wrap silly putty around the belted to keep it from rattling around.




MICKEY, read my post again! This time for comprehension!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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mickey
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #78563 - 13/05/07 06:04 AM

Mac

So you are explaning how to sleeve a 375 Flg'd and rebore to a 375 Belted?

How many of these have you done?

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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AzGuy
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: mickey]
      #78566 - 13/05/07 07:15 AM

Mickey,

No....just the opposite. Sleve a 375 belted and convert to 375 Flanged.


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mickey
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Re: .375 H&H to .375 Flanged conversion [Re: AzGuy]
      #78567 - 13/05/07 07:19 AM

I knew that. My fingers flip flopped my brain.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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