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TOBY458
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Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why?
      #244974 - 04/04/14 06:15 AM

I recently emailed Champlin regarding several modern double rifle brands. He only recommended Chapuis nand Heym. He said to stay away from Merkel and Kreighoff, but never responded when I asked why.
Have any of you had negative experiences with these brands?


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: TOBY458]
      #244978 - 04/04/14 06:49 AM

Maybe he is influenced by what he sells.

I have a Merkel .500NE, and it is an excellent working rifle. I would rather have it than a Heym or Chapuis.

To each his own. George is in it for the profit.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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TOBY458
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: CptCurl]
      #244983 - 04/04/14 07:09 AM

So I assume he doesn't sell those brands at all? Even used?

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Huvius
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: CptCurl]
      #244987 - 04/04/14 07:57 AM

Quote:

Maybe he is influenced by what he sells...

To each his own. George is in it for the profit.

Curl




He is in it for the profit, as is anybody running a business, but he also is a man whom will tell you exactly what he thinks.
I would like to hear his explanation too but I would bet that it has something to do with future resale and their value as an investment. He is a fan of classic Brit and Scottish doubles for sure.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: Huvius]
      #244989 - 04/04/14 08:15 AM

Well, I wasn't intending to run George down. I don't know why he has his opinions, and there certainly is nothing wrong for seeking profit. I guess I sounded too caustic, but that was not my intention.

I just think it is curious he would condemn Merkel. That company has been in business for way over 100 years and has made guns from the finest quality down to working grade. There are many thousands of their guns being used every day. I don't see how anybody can just "write them off".

As for the Kreighoff double rifles, I would agree. I don't like their system of cocking, and I don't particularly like their looks. So that's my reason on that one. There are people who like their system and their looks, and they buy them. I have never heard of a Kreighoff being unreliable.

I've never owned a Chapuis, but the one I have shot was a very poor fit for me. I have heard others complain about their fit.

I've never owned a Heym. I am of the opinion they are way over-priced. I think you are getting the build quality of a Merkel for about 150% of the price. Personally I think a Merkel looks better than the Heym. The Merkel is more traditional. I don't like the appearance of the rear of the action on the Heym. From what others report they are very serviceable and dependable.

So there is my take on these guns and my reasons. Merkel is far from my favorite brand of DR, but they make a quality product and shouldn't be shoved aside.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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TOBY458
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: CptCurl]
      #244993 - 04/04/14 08:54 AM

Champlin aside, I've never heard any major complaints from the two brands mentioned either. As far as Champlin's preference, I think the Chapuis has some kind of a double locking lug system. Not sure if that has an affect on his recommendation or not. He said that the Heym is higher priced than the Chapuis, because the labor is much higher in Germany. But that doesn't explain the price difference between them and Merkel. I'm in the market for a modern 450/400, and I'm just wanting the most bang for the buck.

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Rell
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: TOBY458]
      #244998 - 04/04/14 10:17 AM

I bought two Chapuis from him. A 450-400 3" and a 9.3x74r/7x65r. Service was great. I bought the first one because i wated to long and need a stock gun for my last trip to Africa. He imports them at 16" LOP, which is what I need at 6'5" in height. It mysteriously lost it's regulation, he took it back reregulated it and got it back to me in 3 weeks. No charge. He also fit a scope, adjusted the triggers down to 5lbs and did a little border engraving on the scope bases.

The 9.3x74r shoots great but the 7x65r is a lemon. He told me to send it back to him as soon as I get back from Africa in June and he"ll sort it out for me. Once again all under warranty. Not sure why he recommends the Chapuis and not the others but I like mine a lot and i really like the service.

--------------------
450-400, 9.3x74r and 7x65r.


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TOBY458
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: Rell]
      #245011 - 04/04/14 02:29 PM

I'm sure I could get 10 different opinions on the same gun, so I guess it's all about personal taste. For my money, if a gun is reliable, is regulated well, and fits the shooter, what more could you ask for? The Merkels I've seen are nice looking guns. Unfortunately, where I live, the gun stores don't carry many high end guns, so I haven't been able to handle the rest of the bunch. So, it would be a shot in the dark, if I ordered one online anyway.

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rigbymauser
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: TOBY458]
      #245035 - 04/04/14 06:44 PM

It is a dual perspective....Has George expressed himself as an authority or salesman?.

George, I would say, is an authority within firearms and particular double rifles because he has been in the business for a very long time, so naturally people will listen to what he says.

Have George been standing at a sales booth at a gun show, he be considered a salesperson.

Question here...what would you like for him to be??.


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Ripp
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #245048 - 05/04/14 12:21 AM

Quote:

It is a dual perspective....Has George expressed himself as an authority or salesman?.

George, I would say, is an authority within firearms and particular double rifles because he has been in the business for a very long time, so naturally people will listen to what he says.

Have George been standing at a sales booth at a gun show, he be considered a salesperson.

Question here...what would you like for him to be??.




Agree with what was said that George has forgotten more than most will ever know about double rifles..and as stated, has been doing this a very very long time.

I have talked to George personally at SCI shows in the past...he opinion at that time which is what most of us have heard in the past is that Merkel was built off of their 20 gauge shotgun action..as to Krieghoff he felt the workmanship was not up to his liking..this was back in 2004-5..

I think Merkel is a fine product for those it fits..I have a shotgun or two of theirs and really like them...have never owned the K.

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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TOBY458
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: Ripp]
      #245061 - 05/04/14 06:37 AM

Is the Merkel being built on a shotgun frame a strength issue?

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bwanabobftw
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: TOBY458]
      #245062 - 05/04/14 07:02 AM

I have bought quite a few doubles from George, he is one of the true experts on Double Rifles in the World . He has been loading for , working on , and hunting with doubles longer than anyone in the business today. I would put a lot of weight in what he says about doubles. Just my 2 cents . I don't own a Merkel rifle , but I have shot several and they shoot pretty good. Not sure how they hold up over the long haul ?
Robert


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Chasseur
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #245072 - 05/04/14 01:36 PM

I used to own a Chapuis, I've shot several Merkels, and I've handled several Heyms and Kreighoffs. Much of this comes down to personal preferences and also the quality of individual gun. I've seen a wide variety of quality variance in Chapuis and Merkel rifles. Heym's I've seen were of more consistent quality and are supposed to have higher standards in terms of regulation. I was not entirely happy with my personal experience with Chapuis, but I've seen and shot other people's Chapuis that were of a more consistent quality than the one I bought.

Its good to keep in mind these are "factory/production" made guns there are not Purdeys etc. so its good to have realistic expectations.

--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
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bwanabobftw
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: Chasseur]
      #245077 - 05/04/14 03:03 PM

Well said Chasseur !!!!!!!
Robert


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Omnivorous_Bob
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: bwanabobftw]
      #245078 - 05/04/14 04:19 PM

Spot on C, for what my opinion is worth!

I like Heyms but think Chapuis CAN be a screaming value at times, but in general you get what you pay for AFTER considering exchange rates and duties and quality of course can vary from gun to gun. I think VC is tempting right now but it all comes down to what you expect to get for your ducats.

Bov

--------------------
"If we're not supposed to eat animals, how come they're made out of meat?"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: TOBY458]
      #245344 - 10/04/14 01:21 AM

Quote:

Is the Merkel being built on a shotgun frame a strength issue?




They are built on a rifle action not a shotgun action. Competitors or their touts have said that in the past, and other people read it on the internet and then repeat it, even years later.

I know who used to say it and he touted for a certain competing brand ...

Well that is at least my opinion. I will visit the Merkel factory oneday and see for myself ...

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Ripp
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: NitroX]
      #245364 - 10/04/14 03:06 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Is the Merkel being built on a shotgun frame a strength issue?




They are built on a rifle action not a shotgun action. Competitors or their touts have said that in the past, and other people read it on the internet and then repeat it, even years later.

I know who used to say it and he touted for a certain competing brand ...

Well that is at least my opinion. I will visit the Merkel factory oneday and see for myself ...




I was told the same thing--that it is first and foremost a rifle action, not a shotgun action..and agree, have heard that same thing for years..I think Merkel is an very nice weapon..have a shotgun or two of theirs I use for pheasants..great guns..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: Ripp]
      #245383 - 10/04/14 06:38 AM

It's a rifle action. That was conclusively established long ago. Like NitroX says, these internet rumors die hard.

The Merkel action is made out of very high grade steel and is hell for strong.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Postman
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: CptCurl]
      #245413 - 10/04/14 01:06 PM

At the risk of offending Merkel fans, here is my personal opinion/observation:

My 3 Merkels, all box locks! a .30-06 lightweight with adjustable regulation, my 9.3x74r, and my .470NE all had eXternal fit and finish beyond reproach. All were works of art. My bore scope told a slightly different story. All three had leades that looked like a tractor had dragged a nasty farm implement across the lands within the throat. The rest of the bore was equivalent to the quality of a Remington. This is NOT a compliment. Tool marks, smeared lands, utterly disgusting lack of care and craftsmanship. These guns are NOT cheap, but the bores were less than what I'd expect out of low end common Walmart guns. Getting past what the bore scope has revealed, the 9.3x74R shoots a composite group that would warm the heart of anyone that likes small consistent groups at 300 metres. Go figure??? The 140 lightweight (can't recall the model designation) was a POS no matter how I slice it. The big bore was quite acceptable wrt to groups and I can't honestly lay a complaint wrt to it's accuracy.

Now, I look through my Heym .500 NE, and the bore looks like a fine artist has polished the bore with the tender loving care of a true perfectionist. No visible tool marks, no tractor pull contests, just a plain simple work of internal art. It shoots like a dream but I can't say it shoots any better than the Merkel 9.3x74R.

The message here? I'm not sure. Each rifle is a unique personality. Each will have it's own personality, and each will or will not shoot well irrespective of external fit and finish, and irrespective of the care taken for the internal build work. I would like to think that as the price goes up, the effort goes up all around, but who knows??? And what does it mean at the range where results separate the men from the boys? Anyone here ever closely examined the private parts of a Holland and Holland? What do they look like from the inside? And lastly, how do they shoot????

Edited by Postman (10/04/14 01:09 PM)


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Ripp
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: Postman]
      #245445 - 10/04/14 11:14 PM

Quote:

At the risk of offending Merkel fans, here is my personal opinion/observation:

My 3 Merkels, all box locks! a .30-06 lightweight with adjustable regulation, my 9.3x74r, and my .470NE all had eXternal fit and finish beyond reproach. All were works of art. My bore scope told a slightly different story. All three had leades that looked like a tractor had dragged a nasty farm implement across the lands within the throat. The rest of the bore was equivalent to the quality of a Remington. This is NOT a compliment. Tool marks, smeared lands, utterly disgusting lack of care and craftsmanship. These guns are NOT cheap, but the bores were less than what I'd expect out of low end common Walmart guns. Getting past what the bore scope has revealed, the 9.3x74R shoots a composite group that would warm the heart of anyone that likes small consistent groups at 300 metres. Go figure??? The 140 lightweight (can't recall the model designation) was a POS no matter how I slice it. The big bore was quite acceptable wrt to groups and I can't honestly lay a complaint wrt to it's accuracy.

Now, I look through my Heym .500 NE, and the bore looks like a fine artist has polished the bore with the tender loving care of a true perfectionist. No visible tool marks, no tractor pull contests, just a plain simple work of internal art. It shoots like a dream but I can't say it shoots any better than the Merkel 9.3x74R.

The message here? I'm not sure. Each rifle is a unique personality. Each will have it's own personality, and each will or will not shoot well irrespective of external fit and finish, and irrespective of the care taken for the internal build work. I would like to think that as the price goes up, the effort goes up all around, but who knows??? And what does it mean at the range where results separate the men from the boys? Anyone here ever closely examined the private parts of a Holland and Holland? What do they look like from the inside? And lastly, how do they shoot????




Personally feel, especially based on your findings of the bore scope..in todays world as has been normally always the case, you get what you pay for..there are NO free lunchs...unless you are a democrat in the US, then you get a free lunch and a phone....

Simply put, there is a reason other than just name that you pay what you do for the other brands..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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TOBY458
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: Ripp]
      #245469 - 11/04/14 02:52 AM

Maybe the barrel quality is why Champlin had a problem. I would think that since Rigby uses the Merkel action, the quality must not be an issue there.

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bonanza
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: TOBY458]
      #245472 - 11/04/14 04:19 AM

I had a .375 H&H Merkel that was a real dandy, which I still had it. I could take out the bullseye at 100 yards with a R/L shot. I only paid $6500 new for it in 2005.

George once said his Maytag had better components that a Kreigoff.

--------------------


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Ripp
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: TOBY458]
      #245476 - 11/04/14 04:34 AM

Quote:

Maybe the barrel quality is why Champlin had a problem. I would think that since Rigby uses the Merkel action, the quality must not be an issue there.





You must be referring to the California version Rigby.??.which was using the merkel actions at that time they were in business..

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..


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TOBY458
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: Ripp]
      #245604 - 13/04/14 06:48 AM

That's corect about the California Rigby using Merkel actions. I wasn't aware they went out of business.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Champlin doesn't recommend Merkel or Kreighoff. Why? [Re: TOBY458]
      #245623 - 13/04/14 02:49 PM

Toby, the Rigby trademark is now owned by a London company with Mauser/Blaser etc as the substantial owner.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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