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Nitro_Andreas
.224 member


Reged: 07/11/11
Posts: 45
Loc: Norway
Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle?
      #241878 - 07/02/14 02:54 AM

A Gunsmith here in Norway, warned my off the use of Hornady's Dangerouse game ammo,
When it comes to DGS and DGX. He said " Sure nothing can't compare when it comes to The penetration, but it comes at a high price"
It will wear your barrel down.

When he said this, it maid sence to me, so the only thing i have used from Hornady is
The interlock bullets for my 458 Lott.

But what says you all? Would you put DGS bullets in your old or new double?

Or is it just a false statment?


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
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Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: Nitro_Andreas]
      #241880 - 07/02/14 03:20 AM

Wear your barrel down? - care to elaborate?

Norma's ammo, for years had steel jackets - no guilding metal cover, Winchester & Hornady for years used internal steel jackets in it's FMJ rounds with guilding metal outer jackets and I think Woodleigh FMJ's also have steel jackets covered in guilding metal. Seems nothing has changed to me with the newer ammo?

Due to the internal steel jacket's toughness and resistance to compression, I suspect they might increase pressure I
F the same load was used as a normal guilding metal jacketed bullet that weight, but the pressure will be regulated to normal with the load the company used.

As to wearing more severely, the steel core would have to be contacting the bore and particularly lands themselves AS IT MUST DO WITH NORMA ammo. The bore and lands with the Winchester Hornady and Woodleigh bullets are protected by the guilding metal covering them - so no measurable wear, I will assume, given no proof to the contrary.

Do Norma bullets wear barrels out prematurely - I don't think so, at lest I haven't not heard that. I understand their steel jackets do not have the thickness and tenacity of the inner steel jackets in the FMJ ammo, however smaller calibre rounds like Norma's are shot many hundreds of times more often than dangerous game ammo. I have heard of Norma ammo prematurely wearing barrels - have you? Maybe it does. I have some 180gr. steel jacketed Semi round nosed Boat Tails Normas loaded for testing in my #4 Enfield - I expect they will work perfectly and I am not concerned in the slightest over excessive barrel wear form their bare steel jackets.

Personally, I think this is one man's personal conjecture.

That makes more sense to me.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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AkMike
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Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: DarylS]
      #241893 - 07/02/14 07:22 AM

I use them w/o worry.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: Nitro_Andreas]
      #241909 - 07/02/14 09:38 AM

I know a lot of people don't agree with me, but, personally, I don't like the idea of shooting steel jacketed bullets, especially in an old classic vintage double rifle, because those older rifles simply don't have the much improved modern alloy barrel steel available today, which is way more durable than the older barrel steel. Common sense will tell you that steel jackets being pressed down into rifling grooves cannot be a good thing; the more you shoot them, the less good thing it is. But what about the protective guilding metal shield over surface of the steel jackets, doesn't that protect the barrel steel? Guilding is nothing more than an extremely thin copper alloy covering over steel jackets; it can't, and doesn't do much in protecting the barrel steel. It does protect steel jackets from rusting. These are reasons why Hawk custom bullets designed their bullets having PURE, SOFT copper jackets, way softer than guilding copper alloy of any kind, so that they would be easier on older vintage double rifles. Obviously, they would also be easier on modern alloy barrel steels too. As with most everything, shooting steel jacketed bullets is a compromise; shooting few of them may be tolerable, to you and to the barrel, but the more you shoot, the more that you have to be wearing the rifling lands to some degree, though some guys don't want to admit the truth. If you are willing to wear your barrel rifling to some degree, though wear might be small, if you shoot few of them, to gain the benefits of the steel jacketed bullets, shoot away. If the virtues of shooting steel jacketed bullets outweighs the risk of wear, shoot away. Otherwise, avoid their use as much as possible. If someone tries to tell you that their use will not wear barrel rifling at all, I simply don't believe them.

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Ron_Vella
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Reged: 29/04/05
Posts: 432
Loc: Oshawa, Ontario, Canada
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #241919 - 07/02/14 02:14 PM

I have loaded the old style Hornady #4507 solids, with steel jackets, covered with a copper alloy, since day one, in my .450 #2 NE. Never a problem and never a worry. And they shoot right through a cape buffalo like he wasn't even there.

As an aside guys, the word is gilding, no "u", as in "Don't gild the lily". I know, I'll probably be lambasted for correcting this but I've got broad shoulders and errors like that tend to be self-perpetuating on the internet.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39268
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #241922 - 07/02/14 02:24 PM

Don't know about Hornady ammo, but I prefer to shoot Woodleigh RNSPs in my rifle if shooting at targets, as compared to FMJ's due to the hardness of the jackets. For the same reason.

Obviously use the FMJ's on game animals as and when required as they work well on elephants, buffalo etc.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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gwh
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Reged: 28/01/08
Posts: 277
Loc: Cairns Australia
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: NitroX]
      #241949 - 07/02/14 08:45 PM

My double is a modern Merkel but I have no issues using Hornady or woodleigh softs or solids, I am more wary of monolithic projectiles, mainly for the reasons of causing damage to the solder between the barrels as opposed to good old barrel wear on the rifling.

I think too, when loading solids, you are obviously reducing loads to prevent over pressure with the harder projectiles.

I carry solids when I'm hunting, but tend to really only shoot softs at game - never had anything not go down and warrant a reload with solids

--------------------
Hunt hard, shoot straight

"I speak of Africa and golden joys; the joy of wandering through lonely lands; the joy of hunting the mighty and terrible lords of the wilderness, the cunning, the wary and the grim"

Theodore Roosevelt, Khartoum, 1910


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underlever
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Reged: 01/02/07
Posts: 164
Loc: N.S.W Australia
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: gwh]
      #241952 - 07/02/14 10:31 PM

Anyone sectioned some of these projectiles? I'd be interested to see how thick the steel jacket is.
Just the other day I was sorting out a big bunch of RWS and DWM 9.3x74R factory loads. The RWS solids really leapt for the magnet, which didn't surprise me. What did surprise me was that the copper jacketed soft points went for the magnet as well. None of the DWM stuff had steel in them.
When I get a chance I'll pull a couple and show what they are made of.


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AkMike
.416 member


Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: underlever]
      #241970 - 08/02/14 06:52 AM

I sectioned a couple of the Hornady bullets, a soft and a solid.
Give me a bit and I'll try to find them.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1129
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: underlever]
      #241972 - 08/02/14 07:10 AM

Quote:

Anyone sectioned some of these projectiles? I'd be interested to see how thick the steel jacket is.
Just the other day I was sorting out a big bunch of RWS and DWM 9.3x74R factory loads. The RWS solids really leapt for the magnet, which didn't surprise me. What did surprise me was that the copper jacketed soft points went for the magnet as well. None of the DWM stuff had steel in them.
When I get a chance I'll pull a couple and show what they are made of.




Here is a sectioned RWS 400gr .423" solid. Good reinforced nose with thinner side walls that would conform easily to the bore. Found one in the rear hip socket of a buffalo after penetrating from the brisket, slightly squashed sides resulting from the squeeze into large heavy the ball and socket joint.



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doubleriflejack
.333 member


Reged: 11/11/07
Posts: 352
Loc: Oregon, U.S.A.
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #241974 - 08/02/14 07:36 AM

Ron, I hear you; respect your opinion. However shooting solids in rifles having modern alloy steel barrels, periodically, would probably not cause anything negative, noticeable, in short term. One must wonder, though, what it will do, negatively in the long term. Certainly the military must have done serious long term studies of such things, as our own military used solids during WWII, in pretty modern alloy steel barrels, .30-06. Fact is, I met a WWII vet here in Oregon, who had been hunting for years with his .30-06 and military surplus solids, until I changed his mind about use of solids for deer/elk. If someone could find old military work done to determine wear on heavily used .30-06 WWII rifles, I am sure we would all find that interesting; shed some light on this issue.

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93x64mm
.416 member


Reged: 07/12/11
Posts: 4017
Loc: Nth QLD Australia
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #241975 - 08/02/14 08:28 AM

I suggest you gents read Graeme Wright's book shooting the English double rifle. I'll try & summarise a bit without waffling on.
Page 226 refers to "hard projectiles", these Graeme refers to as 'any projectile other than a conventional lead cored projectile with a gilding metal or copper jacket'....'The major difference is that all these materials are much harder than lead. Consequently, it requires that much more force to extrude and displace the projectile material away from the rifling and push the bullet through the barrel. One possible non-lead exception to this definition are projectiles using driving bands'....
'However all will be more stressful than a conventional projectile with its soft lead core and relatively thin, soft jacket material'.
Graeme then refers to an experiment the Geoff MacDonald of Woodleigh bullets did as an experiment to a section of .375" barrel (of correct bore & groove diameters)turned down to 0.090".
A soft point was forced through the barrel with a hydraulic ram, and measurements were taken with a micrometer.
'When forcing a soft point through, the barrel has no measurable expansion at all. However a steel solid gave 0.0005" expansion to the barrel, although the barrel did spring back after the bullet had passed'.
On P227 he refers to how the old Kynoch solids were made, with much thinner side walls & tapering projectiles - the photo shows it all very succinctly.
And so it now becomes obvious why these "old" solids fishtailed & lost track sometimes!

The one interesting note he gives is this as a final note on hard projectiles:-
'On a practical level it is interesting to note none of the current London Gunmakers recommends hard projectiles in their double rifles and in some cases single barrelled rifles. Speaking to the regulators themselves, they only use soft point ammunition during the regulating process. Only at the final stage do they fire a few solids just to check that the two projectile types have the same point of impact'.

Graeme then discusses barrel steel and barrel size, in which he tells of some cases that he knows of & how they got around certain problems - but not using hard projectiles!
He also notes that he has measured solids from a variety of bullet makers, in most cases he has found them often 0.0005 - 0.001" undersized, so will significantly reduce the stress on the rifling and hence pressure overall on a barrel.
He also discusses Rifling type, the current situation (rifling dimensions & bullet manufacturing), barrel splits, slow powders, Flaws or faults & Bore and groove diameters before doing another note on hard projectile before his conclusion. And I quote:-
'Firstly I am in contact with double rifle shooters all over the world. The vast majority (myself included) use standard lead cored soft points for nearly all their shooting. Typically even the use of lead cored solids is kept to a minimum,...'
'The second point is related, but deals with wear and tear. If new barrels were subjected to a lot of use with hard projectiles will they show signs of stress in the future? I guess only time will tell'.
His recommendations or safe guards are on P235 & a footnote P 236 in regard to Geoff MacDonald tests on barrel steel hardness and what he recommends in regard to age of rifle as to its suitability or not to use hard projectiles.
get the book fellas - its a wealth of knowledge & has reloading data as well!
Cheers
93x64mm


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BB416
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Reged: 01/10/13
Posts: 68
Loc: QLD Australia
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: NitroX]
      #241982 - 08/02/14 12:44 PM

Hey Fellas, please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the reason to put the copper coating over the steel jackets to act as a lubricant ( for want of a better word) or a barrier to prevent steel against steel. Doesn't your barrel wear out eventually anyway? I realise that using steel jackets may wear it out quicker as metal against metal without lubrication of some sort has to be a bad thing. Bit like running your car without oil, won't run for long
But I am with you NitroX , stick with the Woodleighs and only use steel jacketed projectiles when absolutely necessary


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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
Posts: 1129
Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: BB416]
      #241989 - 08/02/14 03:25 PM

Quote:

Hey Fellas, please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the reason to put the copper coating over the steel jackets to act as a lubricant ( for want of a better word) or a barrier to prevent steel against steel. Doesn't your barrel wear out eventually anyway? I realise that using steel jackets may wear it out quicker as metal against metal without lubrication of some sort has to be a bad thing. Bit like running your car without oil, won't run for long
But I am with you NitroX , stick with the Woodleighs and only use steel jacketed projectiles when absolutely necessary




Yes BB416 you are correct, most if not all steel jacketed bullets will have a coating on them. Silver coloured Norma steel jacket bullets, similar to the RWS bullets shown in the photo above, are coated in tombac a high copper content brass alloy. Some 404 ammo loaded by Norma and sold under the Parker Hale banner have copper coated/coloured steel solids.

Closely examining the sectioned RWS bullet in the photo one can see this coating applied to the inside of the jacket as well. Recovered bullets show a copper colouring where the rifling has scored the jacket.


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Yochanan
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Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: eagle27]
      #242019 - 09/02/14 06:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Hey Fellas, please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the reason to put the copper coating over the steel jackets to act as a lubricant ( for want of a better word) or a barrier to prevent steel against steel. Doesn't your barrel wear out eventually anyway? I realise that using steel jackets may wear it out quicker as metal against metal without lubrication of some sort has to be a bad thing. Bit like running your car without oil, won't run for long
But I am with you NitroX , stick with the Woodleighs and only use steel jacketed projectiles when absolutely necessary




Yes BB416 you are correct, most if not all steel jacketed bullets will have a coating on them. Silver coloured Norma steel jacket bullets, similar to the RWS bullets shown in the photo above, are coated in tombac a high copper content brass alloy. Some 404 ammo loaded by Norma and sold under the Parker Hale banner have copper coated/coloured steel solids.

Closely examining the sectioned RWS bullet in the photo one can see this coating applied to the inside of the jacket as well. Recovered bullets show a copper colouring where the rifling has scored the jacket.




Today the RWS uses Woodleigh bullets in 404. The bullets you displayed looks very much like Woodleigh solids.

--------------------
© "I have never been able to appreciate 'shock' as applied to killing big game. It seems to me that you cannot kill an elephant weighing six tons by ´shock´unless you advocate the use of a field gun." - W.D.M. Bell: Wanderings of an Elephant Hunter.


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eagle27
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Reged: 24/01/09
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Loc: Nelson, New Zealand
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: Yochanan]
      #242036 - 09/02/14 08:01 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Hey Fellas, please correct me if I am wrong, but isn't that the reason to put the copper coating over the steel jackets to act as a lubricant ( for want of a better word) or a barrier to prevent steel against steel. Doesn't your barrel wear out eventually anyway? I realise that using steel jackets may wear it out quicker as metal against metal without lubrication of some sort has to be a bad thing. Bit like running your car without oil, won't run for long
But I am with you NitroX , stick with the Woodleighs and only use steel jacketed projectiles when absolutely necessary




Yes BB416 you are correct, most if not all steel jacketed bullets will have a coating on them. Silver coloured Norma steel jacket bullets, similar to the RWS bullets shown in the photo above, are coated in tombac a high copper content brass alloy. Some 404 ammo loaded by Norma and sold under the Parker Hale banner have copper coated/coloured steel solids.

Closely examining the sectioned RWS bullet in the photo one can see this coating applied to the inside of the jacket as well. Recovered bullets show a copper colouring where the rifling has scored the jacket.




Today the RWS uses Woodleigh bullets in 404. The bullets you displayed looks very much like Woodleigh solids.




Those RWS bullets pictured are genuine RWS stock and were produced and used quite a while before Geoff McDonald started up his production line of Woodleigh bullets. I used the RWS solids on Australian buffalo in 1978, one year before Geoff did his first buffalo safari. Woodleigh bullets are much heavier jacketed, one reason why some question their suitability in doubles.

I actually obtained the RWS 404 bullets from John Saunders of Century Arms back in 1977 the same place where Geoff McDonald obtained some 577 brass enabling him to take his 577 gun along on his buffalo hunt with cast bullets.


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dpcd67
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Reged: 08/07/13
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Loc: USA
Re: Hornady Ammunition Safe for your Rifle? [Re: eagle27]
      #242752 - 20/02/14 07:46 AM

Both the Hornady DGS and DGX use steel jackets, coated with copper. I have recovered them and the steel never touches the rifling. I shoot them all the time in .410 and .458 diameters.

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