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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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tinker
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Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: Buchsemann]
      #235436 - 11/09/13 02:35 AM

Really nice rifle, interesting markings.
That "1" on the action flat is not likeky the serial number, much more likely an inspector's mark.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: Buchsemann]
      #235446 - 11/09/13 07:02 AM

Hello Buchseman,

I expected I was going to keep it, so I purchased some Hornady .500 NE brass to be ready. I've got bullets cast, and I will paper-patch them shortly. Now all I need is a starting point for a load. I'm going to use IMR4198 because I've got lots of it.

I wanted to be sure that the Jansen liked its new home, so I purchased a nice Italian Case for it. I think it likes it.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (16/09/13 09:36 PM)

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TH44
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #235454 - 11/09/13 08:37 AM

Buckstix

PLease do not think I am trying to teach you to suck eggs, but you MUST use magnum primers with 4198, especially in such a long case. I have had partial ignition? with unburnt powder everywhere and a bullet only just leaving the barrel with a .577 Snider some years ago when using standard primers

Good luck and let us know how it shoots!

TH44

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: gungadoug]
      #235460 - 11/09/13 01:26 PM

Quote:

Buckstix, I looked at mine, and I agree with your reading of the barrel stampings. I also have the LR, or whatever, stamp on the receiver flat, with a number 5. I suspect an assembler ID? I also have a 184, and that weird LR type mark, on the forend hook on the barrel. I also see the 5 on the inside of the Jones lever, facing the trigger guard. ... The # on the barrels is 3678. That's why I thought this is the serial #, since #1, and #5 would be strange?
Doug










Pictures posted for gungadoug.

Edited by CptCurl (16/09/13 09:37 PM)

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: TH44]
      #235462 - 11/09/13 01:32 PM

Hello TH44,

I've had good luck using WLR primers in my 577-500 W. Richards. Some recent sources say that the WLR primers are hotter than the F215 primers.




--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (16/09/13 09:37 PM)

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gungadoug
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #235520 - 11/09/13 11:19 PM

Buckstix, thanks for posting, I never could get that to work! Nice rifle, and a great buy! Is your W Richards a 577-500 #2? What mould do you use for the 366 gr. bullet? Filler?
Doug

Edited by gungadoug (11/09/13 11:28 PM)

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: gungadoug]
      #235529 - 12/09/13 01:32 AM

Hello gungadoug,

You are welcome. Yes, the W. Richards is a 577/500 No.2 BPE. Its almost a twin to this rifle, except it does not have rebounding locks and has a wedge forend. (see the link for more info)

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=329134#Post329134


I have an adjustable mold so I can make bullets from about 300g up to 550g. I use 5/8" dia foam Baker Rod, about 1-1/4" long, for filler.




--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

Edited by CptCurl (16/09/13 09:38 PM)

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #235560 - 12/09/13 09:47 PM

Hello,

As I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in knowing the translation of the barrel markings.

- the right barrel is hand engraved ...... AD. Jansen Fab ant D'Armes de S.M. le Roi
- the left barrel is hand engraved ........ 27 Rue de la Madeleine, Bruxelles


I'm sure the left barrel marking is the address, but does anyone know what the right barrel marking means? Would either of these markings give a clue as to when this rifle might have been manufactured?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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tinker
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #235562 - 12/09/13 10:04 PM

Jansen makes guns for the king

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Sville
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: tinker]
      #235563 - 12/09/13 11:03 PM



These are examples of proof marks from my Belgian DR. From bottom of the pic. First one, Crowned ELG, proved by the proof law. Second, Lion PV, for smokeless powder. Third, crowned R, designed for rifled barrels. Fourth, controllers code. Fifth, underlined e, year of production. I will send you a PM with copy of proof marks. /Staffan

Edited by CptCurl (16/09/13 09:39 PM)

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: Sville]
      #235569 - 13/09/13 02:14 AM

Hello Sville,

Many thanks for emailing a copy of the Belgian Proof Marks. In finding a copy of the Date codes, I see they started using them in 1922. Therefore I know this double was built in 1921 or earlier.

I also found your reference (number 4) says: "Bore diameter in millimeters. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps"

Since this rifle's bore is stamped "12.0", it would indicate it was made in 1895 or later. So ... I guess I can reasonable assume it was made sometime during the span from 1895 up to 1921, a span of 27 years.

If there is any more info out there that could be used to interpret the inspector's markings, maybe the manufacture range could be narrowed further still.

My best guess is late 1890's.

Your thoughts?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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WildCattle
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Reged: 22/03/06
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Loc: Northern California
Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #235589 - 13/09/13 02:37 PM

Quote:

Hello,

As I mentioned earlier, I'm interested in knowing the translation of the barrel markings.

- the right barrel is hand engraved ...... AD. Jansen Fab ant D'Armes de S.M. le Roi
- the left barrel is hand engraved ........ 27 Rue de la Madeleine, Bruxelles


I'm sure the left barrel marking is the address, but does anyone know what the right barrel marking means? Would either of these markings give a clue as to when this rifle might have been manufactured?



Hi Buckstix,
Well "Fab ant" is more than likely "Fab'ant" as an abbreviation of "Fabricant" e.g. "Maker".
S.M. is an acronym for "Sa Majeste" His Majesty.
The line means " Adolphe Jansen,gun maker to His Majesty the King" (of Belgium).
And "27 rue de la Madeleine" is the address of course.
The funny part is that in Belgium and Switzerland, the address is usually reversed from the French wording, so it should normally be written: "Rue de la Madeleine, 27" in the Belgian way.
However, that's pretty subtle.

There are certainly no clues about Manufacturing, but the proof marks and MASSART point to the Liege immediate area.

The retail address is now an hotel.

I am looking forward to the shooting report!

Best regards,
WC-

--------------------
You know you have reached perfection of design not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: WildCattle]
      #235595 - 13/09/13 06:42 PM

Hello WildCattle,

Thank you for the detailed translation. I hope to get to the range this weekend to breath new life into this 100+ year old rifle.

As an update, Sville just pointed out that according to Littlegun, Jansen was at this address only until 1908/1909. I originally missed that. This added information now narrows the possible manufacturing span to 15 years, being from 1895 to 1909. If we could determine the dates of the inspector's markings, perhaps we can get closer.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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gungadoug
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #235599 - 13/09/13 10:10 PM

If Massart took out his patent in 1902, would that narrow it further to 02-09? Since mine does not have the Massart stamp, and is just a few numbers before yours, using the numbering on the barrel, I wonder if mine was made just prior to 1902, and yours shortly after 02?
Doug

Edited by gungadoug (13/09/13 10:13 PM)

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: gungadoug]
      #235602 - 14/09/13 12:36 AM

Hello gungadoug,

I'm not sure. He may have made my barrels before his patented joining method and just stamped his name as the maker. If I knew what barrel joining features were in his patent, and if my barrels had those joining features, I could tell if the 1902 date would apply.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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WildCattle
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: gungadoug]
      #235618 - 14/09/13 02:37 PM

Correct Buckstix, Massart was probably in business much before he applied for a patent.
Per the "qui est qui" there was a A. Massart in Liege in 1886 and then in Herstal (next door) in 1892 who applied for patents at those dates. Plus the one in Henne-lez-Chaudfontaine who applied for the 1902 patent. They certainly could be one and the same.
I still believe that your double is circa 1890-1900.
Best regards,
WC-

--------------------
You know you have reached perfection of design not when you have nothing more to add, but when you have nothing left to take away.
Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: WildCattle]
      #235620 - 14/09/13 03:24 PM

Hello WildCattle,

Thank you for that info.

I'll stick withe the wider range of 1895 - 1909, based on:

"Bore diameter in millimeters. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps"

"Jansen was at this address only until 1908/1909"

Any suggestions as to what the "184" and "LJ" and "LL" stamps could mean?

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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Sville
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #235635 - 15/09/13 05:11 AM

"LJ" is most certainly one of the Janssens that put the rifle together. /Staffan

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Sville
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: Sville]
      #235636 - 15/09/13 05:12 AM

Tried to find LJ in the list of craftmens of Belgium but didn´t find anything.

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: Sville]
      #235656 - 15/09/13 08:08 PM

Hello Sville,

I found a reference for the "LL" as being Leon Leclercq. Would you know anything about when he was in business?

You mentioned "LJ" perhaps being Louis Jeusette, do you know of any dates for him?

As for the "184" stamping, I have found another gun with a "184" and one with a "183". Is it possible that this is some kind of date code? I'm thinking its not a production serial number or barrel serial number because there should not be any duplicate numbers.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: TH44]
      #235739 - 18/09/13 07:02 AM

Quote:

Good luck and let us know how it shoots!
-TH44


Quote:

I am looking forward to the shooting report!
-WildCattle



Hello TH44, Hello WildCattle,

Well, I just got back from the range. I'm still as "Giddy" as a school girl. I kinda' feel sorry for all those that saw this little beauty on the internet auction, and didn't bid on it. (well, not really, cause then "I" wouldn't have gotten it)

The balance was great, the recoil was modest, and the sights were clear and crisp because the rear sight is mounted more forward on the rib than all of my other doubles. My old eyes really liked that.

I went to the range with 2 loads ... both were loaded with 52.0g IMR4198 - one with 390g Paper-patch bullets, and the other with 350g flat-nose gas-checked bullets.

I shot the PP bullets first.... HERE IS WHAT THEY DID...... just a fuzz over a 1-1/4" group .... WOW ! ! WOW ! !


.
.
.
.
.
.

The gas-checked 350's did pretty good also .... They shot a bit higher and just a tad over a 2" group.



.
.
.

I am so glad I got this one. So far its my best shooter. I'm ready for hunting, and this one is going with me for sure.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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gungadoug
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #235766 - 18/09/13 10:47 PM

Heck, I'd say with the PP, you're done with load development!
Doug

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: gungadoug]
      #235768 - 19/09/13 12:20 AM

Hello gungadoug,

Yep, that's what I was thinking. But I'll try again just to make sure its repeatable. And then try it at 100 yds also. Then, maybe I'll make a slight sight adjustment to the right.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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tinker
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: buckstix]
      #235771 - 19/09/13 02:25 AM

That looks great!

I'd try a half grain more and less to see how it goes.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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buckstix
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Re: Double Rifle by AD. JANSEN - BRUXELLES - looking for info [Re: tinker]
      #235777 - 19/09/13 05:55 AM

Hello tinker,

Yes, that's my plan. I might try a tad lighter bullet just to see if it reduces recoil.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."

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