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oldcolonel
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Reged: 11/04/13
Posts: 30
Loc: Kansas
10.75 x52r Springer finally fired
      #232616 - 17/07/13 04:44 AM

I also posted this on Doublegun.com in their double rifle section

After months of preparation and waiting for all the loader, loader components, and reloading components I have finally been able to take my Louis Christophe by Jules Bury 10.75x52R Springer Double Rifle to the range.

I will meander through some of the background on my journey and process.

When I purchased the gun it included the dies and about twenty loaded rounds. The reloaded rounds and brass were 45-70 Brass which was still original length and not trimmed down to 52mm. Based on a notation in the die box I thought it might be H4198 powder. I disassembled a few of them to check their content and determine it was not 4198 powder. Further the powder filled less than 60% of the case and no filler wads were being used, lots and lots of airspace. The cartridges varied by as much as 9 grains in powder weight. I further determined the bullets were straight 0.430 210 grain and not resized to 0.423. Whoever loaded them did not slug the bore and resize the bullets. He may of measure the muzzle which is almost .429 and believed that was the bore size. Bottom-line when purchasing a gun with reloads, it is important to check a few to ensure you know what is in them is correct.

I utilized the only one load I could find online (258grain Bullet/45.0 grains N135) as a benchmark and derived data using Quickload software. I further used data from similar sized cartridges as further reference to see if the data made sense.

I loaded five sets of six cartridges in predicted velocities from 1700 to 1800 using .44 Magnum (.430) 240grain Hornaday XTR (copper jacket hollow point). I had to use the Hornaday Bullet stepped down through several steps to .423 as the 258 grain bullets I custom ordered from Hawks have yet to arrive and I could not wait further. I used Privi 8x56R brass for two sets of loads and Starline 45-70 government brass for three sets.

On the Privi Brass as it comes necked down I initially fire formed them with Unique Powder and Cream of Wheat; then put both them and the Starline brass through the CH4D dies. Both required significant trimming which I need to get better at. Long term I believe I will invest in a power trimmer set-up as the manual CH4D trimmer is a pain.

After firing I could not sense any performance difference between the Privi 8x56R Brass and the 45/70 Brass. There was a 2 grain difference in case volume (74 vs 76 grain). Also the Privi brass has a slightly thinner rim. I still need to clean the fired brass and carefully inspect, but range inspection did not show anything.

All the loads were done with N135 powder. Later I will do some additional loads in IMR3031, Reloader 17, and H4198. They ranged from 44.9grains to 47.9 grains. They filled the case between 77% and 88% and although I probably did not have to I used cut in half Kynock foam filler wads to ensure a 100% fill.

On this initial firing I stayed at 1800 FPS and below. On pressure I stayed between predicted pressures of 14,581 to 12,848 PSI. I say predicted as I have no way of checking the pressure delivered at this time. I also have no sure way to know true max pressure for this cartridge. I have settled on 30,000 PSI based what similar cartridges. I doubt I will risk above predicted 24,000 PSI if I ever even go that far. I was not able to Chronograph the loads tested. I will attempt to chronograph the next firing. I have derived Quickload data to get up to 2000 FPS and to 19,300 PSI. At this point I am not sure I will take it that fast and that high a pressure.

I note this is my first adventure in rifle reloading.

The only loading issue I encountered while reloading is the loose bullet after final press. In other words instead of a tightly crimped bullet the bullet is loose and can be easily pushed and pulled. As my barrel was slugged at 0.423/0.424 the bullets I used were resized to 0.423. I resized a bullets to 0.424 which was still loose, I then resized to 0.427 which resulted in a tighter bullet fit but still not tight and too large a load to fire through my 10.75 bore (in my opinion). I am considering order in a custom crimping die which will give me the final tightness I want. My other option could be a bullet crimper from Stephen Coker (which I am ordering as a case accessory anyway). Because of the loose bullet seating I only loaded and fired one round at a time as I did not want the recoil of the right barrel to unseat a bullet on the cartridge in the left barrel.

I fired from a table with the gun resting on my hand which in turn rested on a sand bag. I fired six rounds alternating barrels in each set. I loaded one barrel, fired, ejected the empty, then loaded the second barrel and repeated. I did not rest the gun more than a minute between shots, with some rounds within 20 seconds. Between sets of rounds there was as much as 15 minutes.

When I first fired I missed the target board completely and could not tell exactly where the rounds were missing except that they hit online on the dirt bream behind the target. I moved the target into 25 yards and determine I was shooting low. I change my sight picture and began to get properly on paper (my first sight picture put the target circle on top of the front sight circle forming a figure eight – I changed to placing the front sight on the center of the target ball). I further flipped up the leaf which elevated the shot group and created a sharper V and that helped. I moved back out to 50 yards again. All said I still feel it is grouping slightly lower than I would want with the sight picture I like to take.

I failed to bring a proper spotting scope and cannot say for sure the order of rounds on the target or which is left and right barrel. Along with chronographing I need keep better record of the fall of each target hit, so I can label each round R1, R2, R3, L1, L2, L3.

I was concerned about how light the rifle when it came to felt recoil. I can report that the loads were comfortable and did not beat me up at all. I was concerned about whether the triggers were be good and the double triggers felt great. Much better than many military rifles I have had to shoot.

The only target photo I am posting is my final target. I only loaded 30 rounds on the initial firing so I ran out of ammo by the time I fixed my sighting issues so I am not sure if I have best performance or not. It is my fastest loading (1800 FPS). A range cease fire interrupted my final shot so I fired the last round into the left of the two targets on the paper as the barrels had cooled. I can say I am very happy with a 2 ¼ by 2 ½ group. I would like to claim skill, but having seen my other groups (next smallest is 5x8) I am not sure I will do that well again.




Overall Accuracy seems very good. The sight picture bugs me, I doubt I will change the rifle sights, I might increase load speed? No pressure signs on the cartridge cases, and comfortable recoil.

Long term my goal is to develop a light (plinking load) medium hunting and heavy load. Next step is to resolve my loose bullet issue, get the correct 258grain bullets, in meantime load more cartridges in 240grn, some in 220 grain (because I have a bunch of bullets and want to see what I they can do), use a spotting scope to track round by round performance, and chronograph my loads.

--------------------
old colonel, topeka kansas


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MikeRowe
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: oldcolonel]
      #232619 - 17/07/13 08:17 AM

Hello Colonel

Your rifle is showing promise!

Have you tried removing the expander button in the resizing die before you resize the cases? It may size them to the right dimension, and the button may open them back up enough that your bullets are loose.

You made a very good point about checking unknown reloads - one never knows what he'll find.


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oldcolonel
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: MikeRowe]
      #232635 - 17/07/13 11:06 PM

I checked the dimensions on the expander and determine it is 0.435 so it may be oversized

The challenge is not the pocket is over expanded. I can set the depth to not do that or simple skip that stage. The problem is when I put the cartridge through what I believe is the final die that sets bullet height and crimps them solid it does not crimp them tightly. I can still move the 0.423 bullet in and out with light finger pressure. I did a few 0.424 bullts which worked better, but still not tight.

I measured the fired brass internal case mouth dimensions and they ran from 0.428 to 0.431. I continue to wonder what the hell on bullet bore dimensions. This might lead me to think I need a bigger than 0.423/0.424. I went back and remeasured the muzzzle and the casting of the chamber, and barrel slug.

The gun is stamped 10.75x52R B.BLINDEE and the bores should be about 0.423 to 0.424, or so I think. The rifling while not deep appears to be in good condition and I do not think it has been bored out.

I remeasured the muzzle is 0.429 or so groove to groove. the bore slug 0.427 (which I did not get all the way through the gun). I am beginning to question my measuring tools and there ability to consistently read. That or my technique bites, and or all of the above. Part of my challenge is meauring the lands versus the grooves (Yes I realize this sounds stupid) I was measurung groove to groove versus rolling the casting in the caliper to get the land to land.

In checking what bullets will slide into the fired brass the 0.427 seem to just barely slide in the .430 stuff does not. I have discovered that even unresized bullets in the same box can vary 0.002+-.

I am nervous about increasing the bore dimensions of the bullets I am loading as it could effect pressure significantly. At the same time accuracy with the 0.423 bullets is good as was the 0.424 ones I fired.

I believe I will go back and reslug the barrel with a 0.427 and a 0.424 slug (I would do 0.425 except that die is still not here yet.

--------------------
old colonel, topeka kansas


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DarylS
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: oldcolonel]
      #232636 - 17/07/13 11:57 PM

Mike was talking about the expander button in the Full Length Sizing die. What diameter is it? If indeed, the expander button is .435" - it is more than .010" LARGER than it should be and needs to be ground down - do as Mike suggested, remove it or skip that stage and measure the case mouth after sizing.

I see from your post, you are guessing at the groove diameter.

You should Slug the bores to determine the exact bore and groove diameter. The bore, is the small measurement - the groove diameter is the "important" number.

Do not increase the diameter of the bullets until you slug the bore.

A soft lead slug is pushed into the bore - run a rod down from the muzzle to the slug, then one up from the breech to the slug. Thump one rod against the slug, holding it still with the other rod, then push it out and measure it with accurate calipers. The bullet should be that diameter or up to about .002" larger.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: DarylS]
      #232638 - 18/07/13 12:48 AM

I totally agree that you are on the right track - looks good.
I don't crimp any of my double loads but I do get tight neck tension.
From the looks of it, you may just want to stay with the bullets you are using/sizing and add the crimp to hold the bullet better or as mentioned measure the plug and see if it is oversize a bit. I have read that crimping alone can effect regulation in a small way and may be just the thing to get velocities more consistent.
Anybody know just what to expect with crimping as opposed to a loose bullet fit?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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oldcolonel
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: Huvius]
      #232644 - 18/07/13 03:59 AM

On slugging do I need to drive it through the length of the bore or just a few inches into it?

--------------------
old colonel, topeka kansas


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MikeRowe
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: oldcolonel]
      #232646 - 18/07/13 05:27 AM

Colonel, using a clean wooden dowel, I would drive a slug just into the muzzle, then knock it back out; then drive another up into the bore at the throat, and knock it back out. This will tell you whether or not the bore is tapered. Hopefully it gets tighter toward the muzzle, the other way round is really not ideal.

If you have a five groove barrel, send the slugs down to me, and I can measure them for you. I have a gizmo for five groovers. An even number of grooves, and you should be OK with a good micrometer.


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oldcolonel
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: MikeRowe]
      #232650 - 18/07/13 09:41 AM

It is a six groove barrel. I slugged the bore at the muzzle and from the chamber. It is tighter on the muzzle than from the chamber.

I have packaged the Bore slug and the Chamber slug along with the chamber casting and two fired cases to send to you. I will let you measure the slugs and tell me. I am beginning to think part of my problem is my digital caliper is a cheap and inaccurate. I am getting 0.4265 at chamber slug and 0.4245 at the muzzle, but everytime I repeat the measurement it comes back slightly different. For a measurement to be valid, the instrument should be repeatable and consistent. Once I get your feedback, I will confirm or deny I am driving myself nuts

--------------------
old colonel, topeka kansas


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MikeRowe
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: oldcolonel]
      #232653 - 18/07/13 12:19 PM

I have been messing with these things long enough, I can no longer confirm or deny if I'm nuts or not......

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DarylS
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: MikeRowe]
      #232668 - 19/07/13 12:26 AM

ha! - Well done oldcolonel.

If the Colonel's #'s are even remotely correct, then the problem is in the dies (expander plug).

If the expander plug is over about .424" or .425", it's oversized and is opening the cases up too large so they cannot possibly hold a bullet properly.

Colonel - you've noted above that the expander plug is .435" - that's .011" ( 11 thousandths ) larger than it should be.

That is why Mike suggested you try sizing the brass without the expander plug and check bullet fit. It could be your dies are properly sizing the brass, but the oversize expander plug is opening them too much.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Huvius
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: DarylS]
      #232673 - 19/07/13 02:06 AM

Quote:



That is why Mike suggested you try sizing the brass without the expander plug and check bullet fit. It could be your dies are properly sizing the brass, but the oversize expander plug is opening them too much.




This is easy to tell when you size the case.
Some of my dies require quite a bit of force on the return stroke which tells me that the die body is sizing the neck to a smaller OD than the expander plug and the neck thickness of the case combined.
Kind of makes me want to take a cerrosafe cast of some of my dies and do a direct comparison with my correlating chamber cast. To my mind, the ideal would be to size the case with only the die body and ditch the expander altogether.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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oldcolonel
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: Huvius]
      #232679 - 19/07/13 05:13 AM

Sizing the cartridge case is not a problem both the initial die and a Case Forming Die the gun came with resize the 45-70 government case to the correct dimensions in terms of near matching up to the chamber cast I did, matching up to the fire formed cases, and to the spec diagrams I have.

While the expander plug seems oversized, in the end that is an easy work around. I can always hone it down to the right size once I am sure what that is. The problem is the final bullet tension is loose. This is either due to me using too small a bullet or the dies not being made tight enough.

Once I have had an independent and qualified verification of the bore slugs I can move forward.

The current die set I am using is a CH4D set and when I put the case with the 0.423/0.424 bullet into it I get no resistance at all. It appears that both the case and the bullet is smaller than the die. Only the bullet seating cone makes contact with the top of the bullet. I get no resistance from the die at all.

If it turns out to be the die I believe my best course is to send the case with the correct bullet to someone to have them make a die that is correct.

I have to still get a trim die from CH4D so I may have them make me a custom crimp die or something of that sort.

--------------------
old colonel, topeka kansas


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DarylS
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: oldcolonel]
      #232683 - 19/07/13 06:27 AM

My experience with CH4D is minimal due to them not building me the custom dies to the fired cases I sent them, but sent a generic size that was all wrong. Returning them with more fired cases, did no good. They would not make alter the dies. Cross border shopping with CH4D is not a good thing to do.

Oldcolonel, sounds as if you need a proper sizer, not a crimp die. if you have a proper size die, the crimp die is not necessary - at all. Wasted money.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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oldcolonel
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: DarylS]
      #232684 - 19/07/13 07:15 AM

Should I determine the die is the issue who should I go to for a custom die from a fired case?

This is probably a stupid question; I correct the first die with the primer punch is the sizer?

--------------------
old colonel, topeka kansas


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DarylS
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: oldcolonel]
      #232692 - 19/07/13 02:01 PM

If the sizer does not reduce the neck area of the case small enough to hold a .426" or .427" bullet, the sizer is not tight enough for your rifle.

Lee will make a custom set of dies for your ctg. for something around $100.00 and so will Hornady. Their prices might have changed, I do not know.

The die with the primer punch, should be the sizer die- yes. It is the first die you use when reloading.

I take it the case is fairly straight, fast taper and without a shoulder?

Most bottle necked ctgs. have an integral expander button in the sizer die along with the primer punch beneath it. The button expands the case when the case is withdrawn from the sizer die.

Straight sided cases, ie: no bottle neck, have a separate expander die to expand the neck, after sizing, thus are sizer and de-capper, the expander die, then seating die = 3 dies.

This is tedius.

I am not familiar with the ctg. you are using - is it a virtually straight sided, tapered case, ie: 3 die set with expander different from the sizer die, or is it a 2 die set with expander and sizer in one die and the seater die separate?

All of the above information is detailed in normal reloading books.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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oldcolonel
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: DarylS]
      #232702 - 20/07/13 01:46 AM

The case is fairly straight with a minor bottle neck

Specs are below







Once I have determine what the actual answer is on proper bullet dimensions if it is the die I will go with a custom die

--------------------
old colonel, topeka kansas

Edited by oldcolonel (20/07/13 01:47 AM)


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DarylS
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: oldcolonel]
      #232708 - 20/07/13 05:55 AM

I take it then, your regular full length size die set, is a 2 die set - or, are you using a form die for your loading?

Judging by the looks of the case, no form dies are actually needed, only a 2 die FL set as with any necked (bottle necked) case.

Those cases are easily necked to hold the smaller bullet and formed in a normal FL sizer die.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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aromakr
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: DarylS]
      #232711 - 20/07/13 07:48 AM

Sir:
I have to agree that your problem with bullet tension in the case is due to the expander button being too large.
Your full length sizing die has a stem inside it, that holds the de-caping pin and expander button. When you size the case, the neck is sized much smaller than necessary, as the case is removed from the die, the expander button brings it to its proper size.
If you remove that stem from the die and mic the button it will indicate its size. Depending on if you are using lead or jacketed bullets, that button should be .002 or .003 smaller that the bullet diameter. You can purchase expanding buttons of various sizes, or if you have the tools that one can be reduced to the proper size. Jacketed bullet diameter should be what you slugged groove diameter indicates and if using lead bullets they should be around .002 over size.
I don't believe you need another die, just alter the expanding button.
Bob


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MikeRowe
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: aromakr]
      #232740 - 21/07/13 07:01 AM

Colonel

I measured the slugs you sent me, and they indicate the bore is right about .428" tapering about .001" toward the muzzle.

The fired cases are .434-.435" inside the neck, so the chamber has good neck clearance to release the bullets.

This is really good news. There is a very good range of both jacketed and cast bullets to suit this cartridge. In fact, I called Stephen to tell him I have got to get a rifle with this cartridge, it looks neat. It should be a great one for deer up to 150 yards in the woods. That's about as far as I can see sights any more.


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oldcolonel
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: MikeRowe]
      #232753 - 21/07/13 10:58 AM

So if .428" tapering about .001" toward the muzzle, am I correct that 0.427 or smaller (0.426) is the appropriate bullet size? (that seems to match up with my physical comparison of bore slug to to the 0.427 resized bullets which seemed a hair bigger than the slug)

I can now see that the resized 0.423 bullets are too small. Once I run a crimping test on the 0.427 and 0.426 bullets. I will see if I still have a bullet tension issue or not.

Is wide neck clearance a normal situation or something to be concerned about? I ask this because I wonder if a previous could have caused it by firing cases less than half filled with powder (similar to chamber ringing). I have carefully reexamined for chamber ringing and I see no sign per pictures I have seen in books.

What size cast bullets should be used in this bore?

How will the B.BLINDEE rifling handle cast bullets?

--------------------
old colonel, topeka kansas


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MikeRowe
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: oldcolonel]
      #232758 - 21/07/13 12:04 PM

I like my cast bullets one to two thousandths over groove diameter. You have neck clearance sufficient to shoot these.

There's a good selection of economical hard cast bullets available at these diameters, and an outfit like Beartooth Bullets can set you up with some really nice premium hard wide flat nose bullets for hunting. I would think your rifling style will be just fine with cast bullets.


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oldcolonel
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: MikeRowe]
      #232762 - 21/07/13 01:26 PM

As for deer to 150 yards the bullet will carry enough power farther than that and then some. I have to admit that iron sights I am only good out to 100 yards or so. I have discovered of late that even zeroing at 50 yards is not as easy as it once was.

If you really want a DR in the same cartridge I believe there might be a BLE Double Rifle is the same cartridge on Gunbroker:

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=354498090

I looked at it a while back and did not see the JB with a crown anywhere amongst the proofmarks so I cannot confirm it is a Jules Bury made gun.

The store that has it could not confirm it is the 10.75x52r Springer versus 10.75x52R Grundig. I am not sure they understand the difference

Edited by oldcolonel (21/07/13 01:46 PM)


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oldcolonel
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: oldcolonel]
      #232763 - 21/07/13 01:30 PM

So if .428" tapering about .001" toward the muzzle, am I correct that 0.427 or smaller (0.426) is the appropriate bullet size?

--------------------
old colonel, topeka kansas


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MikeRowe
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: oldcolonel]
      #232765 - 21/07/13 02:17 PM

If it was mine I'd use .429"s.

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lancaster
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Re: 10.75 x52r Springer finally fired [Re: oldcolonel]
      #232772 - 21/07/13 07:00 PM

Quote:

So if .428" tapering about .001" toward the muzzle, am I correct that 0.427 or smaller (0.426) is the appropriate bullet size?




hello oldcolonel

good to here the double is shooting now
the correct bullet size for the 10,75x52R springer's is .424 but with a .428 barrel and the thin jacket .429 pistol bullets I see no danger in using them like the are. test will showing what works best for you

safe the pics










J. Bury Dbl. Hammerless Rifle, 10 X 75, 26 1/2" bbls., ejectors, Belgium proofs, left bbl. is marked "ARP Sicra.liege", open rear sight, ivory bead front sight, double locking lugs, top tang bbl. release, cross bolt locking mechanism, checkered PG stock, double triggers, checkered wooden buttplate with serrated grooves, engraved screws, light engraving on frame, sling swivel eyeletts, exc. bores, 95% blue raised full length matted rib, exc. wood, leather case included.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=354498090

--------------------
Norwegian hunter misses moose, shoots man on toilet
.
bringing civilisation to the barbarians


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