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Nordmann
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Cased pair of Howdah pistols
      #232406 - 13/07/13 01:47 AM

Yesterday I bought this cased pair of fabulous Howdah pistols out of one of my clients private collections. I have been after them for some time. Every dog has its day!

http://www.jamesedition.com/lifestyle-co...(london)-687902

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


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TH44
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232419 - 13/07/13 07:58 AM

Excellent! - Truly a magnificent pair of pistols

I could not get to Holt's last month, but there was a Cased Pair of Purdey Howdah pistols which I would have loved to have seen

TH44


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Nordmann
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: TH44]
      #232421 - 13/07/13 08:06 AM

T444 they had no finish. well worn and £21K plus comm. Remember Purdey's were really nothing special in 1845, still wet behind the ears, Manton and Tatham could both teach them a thing or two back then.

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


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500Nitro
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232422 - 13/07/13 08:10 AM


Nordmann

People forget that about Purdey's, Holland's etc
and just "buy the name".


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: 500Nitro]
      #232443 - 13/07/13 06:16 PM

Nordmann, those are superb ! best, Mike

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DarylS
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #232458 - 14/07/13 03:05 AM

Beautiful! Absolutely stunning condition. .650" would shoot the standard patched ball meant for the Baker and Ferguson rifles. Well done.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: DarylS]
      #232503 - 15/07/13 12:53 AM



Credit: A post from the "Society of Gentlemen Adventurers", Mark van den Boogaart
From Leeds Royal Armoury, the Hunting section - top floor

--------------------
John aka NitroX

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Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: NitroX]
      #232505 - 15/07/13 01:19 AM

Extremely Fine & Rare Cased Pair of Henry Tatham Howdah Pistols (London), 1845



A splendid and very rare cased pair of rifled howdah pistols by Henry Tatham, 37 Charing Cross, London, circa 1845. Gun and Pistol maker to the Royal family.



In their original case with coloured maker's trade label. Barrels retain 95% original bright stripy browning. Bores are bright with strong rifling. Triggerguards display most bright "peacock" bluing. The finely checkered select walnut stocks exhibit a startling 98%+ original varnish. The locks, hammers, and hinged buttcaps are finely engraved and have considerable colour hardening throughout. Stirrup rammers are crisp. Accessories include original key, rod with jags, and box of caps. Silver thumbpieces with owner's initials. 65 calibre barrels are 5 inches to patent breeches and pistols measure 12.75 inches overall.



Rifled percussion howdah pistols are very rare and this set by one of London's very best makers represents a rare opportunity for the discerning collector of fine English guns.



The howdah pistol was a large-calibre handgun, often with two or four barrels, used in India and Africa from the beginning of the nineteenth century, and into the early twentieth century, during the period of British Colonial rule. It was typically intended for defence against tigers, lions, and other dangerous animals that might be encountered in remote areas. Multi-barreled breech loading designs were later favoured over the original muzzle loading designs for Howdah pistols, because they offered faster reloading than was possible with contemporary revolvers,which had to be loaded and unloaded through a gate in the side of the frame.



The term "howdah pistol" comes from the howdah, a large platform mounted on the back of an elephant. Hunters, especially during the period of the British Raj in India, used howdahs as a platform for hunting wild animals and needed large-calibre side-arms for protection from animal attacks. The practice of hunting from the howdah basket on top of an Asian elephant was first made popular by the joint Anglo-Indian, East Indian Company during the 1790s. These earliest howdah pistols were flintlock designs, and it was not until about 60 years later percussion models in single or double barrel congfiguration were seen. By the 1890s and early 1900s cartridge firing and fully rifled howdah pistols were in normal everyday use.


Photo credit: A post from the "Society of Gentlemen Adventurers", Mark van den Boogaart
From Leeds Royal Armoury, the Hunting section - top floor


--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 10:31 PM)


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: NitroX]
      #232506 - 15/07/13 01:25 AM

Nordman,

The above post is what would be copied to the Archive forum.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Nordmann
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: NitroX]
      #232512 - 15/07/13 06:02 AM

Perfect!

Go for it Nitroxx

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


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rigbymauser
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232532 - 15/07/13 03:03 PM

Beautiful pistols. Museum quality for sure.

Regarding Manton's, they have again appeared im London. I have often before why they went completely out of the gun business?. There seem to be a little branche left in Calcutta, but it is a rather insignificant affair.

Thanks for sharing Nordmann.


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Huvius
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: rigbymauser]
      #232550 - 16/07/13 12:05 AM

What makes a gun a "howdah pistol" rather than an "Officer's pistol" or "Traveler's pistol"?
I thought howdah pistols generally had features such as belt clips or a ring on the grip cap which make sense when in a howdah.
Is there a reason these are not referred to as "Howdah pistols"?

http://www.jamesdjulia.com/auctions/catalog_detail_shots.asp?Details=48713&sale=135

http://www.arbourantiques.co.uk/2010/firearms/joseph-lang-officers-pistols-sold/

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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TH44
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Huvius]
      #232575 - 16/07/13 09:29 AM

Huvius - I have thought long and hard about this subject since first viewing the post

I have not posted before because of Nordmann's obvious and well deserved enthusiasm

These are a pair of best, museum quality "Officer's", Gentleman's" or 'Traveller's" pistols from a top class London Gunmaker,
that may well, had the owner been in India, used as "Howdah" pistols

I have six double barrelled pistols, of which 3 or 4 could be considered "Howdah" pistols

I have an almost identical (in size and style) pistol by Wilson of London which is a "Gentleman's" pistol

I paid a lot of money for a "Baby Howdah" (posted somewhere here) in .500 X 1.5 " that is, on reflection a transition cartridge pistol before revolvers superseded them



These are, in my opinion, examples of "Howdah" pistols, barrels 8 - 11+ inches long, overall length 16 - 18 inches

This post is in no way intends to denigrate the excellent pair of pistols you have , just to follow Huvius' comment

TH44

Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 10:33 PM)


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Igorrock
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: TH44]
      #232580 - 16/07/13 01:59 PM

I do not own any "Howdah" pistol, but IMO in the beginning they have been weapons like todays "bank robbery specials" ie. shotguns whose stock and barrel has been shortened. That´s why I think a real Howdah should be quite a big and robust double barrel gun. Later those factory made "Officer's", Gentleman's" or "Traveller's" pistols has been, more or less, used same way as the original ones.





Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 10:35 PM)


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Nordmann
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: TH44]
      #232594 - 16/07/13 06:49 PM

TH44

You are of course correct, but..your entry could also read:-

"These are a pair of best, museum quality howdah pistols from a top class London Gunmaker,
that may well, had the owner been in England, used as "Officer's", Gentleman's" or 'Traveller's" pistols"

Do you get my point?

They are:- Just a killer pair of London made double barreled pistols, flat new in the original makers case...in original (not refurbished) mint condition...how does that sound?

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


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Huvius
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232605 - 16/07/13 11:32 PM

Quote:

TH44

You are of course correct, but..your entry could also read:-

"These are a pair of best, museum quality howdah pistols from a top class London Gunmaker,
that may well, had the owner been in England, used as "Officer's", Gentleman's" or 'Traveller's" pistols"

Do you get my point?

They are:- Just a killer pair of London made double barreled pistols, flat new in the original makers case...in original (not refurbished) mint condition...how does that sound?




This is precisely why I posed the question of - what makes a howdah pistol a howdah pistol.
Did any makers specify in their ledgers that a particular gun was a howdah pistol or was the term even in use in period?
How do the big auction houses differentiate between the two? They certainly seem to so must have some criteria.

As for these particular pistols, I would think that they have been refinished sometime simply because the condition of the guns far exceeds the condition of the case interior. The case lining in the lid is newer than that in the base as you can see.
Also, the brass wedge keeper is much too shiny to not have been refinished. Perhaps the wood has been redone leaving the metal in original condition.
Beautiful weapons all the same.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Nordmann
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Huvius]
      #232610 - 17/07/13 02:14 AM

Huvlus..

The material on the inside lid is original. Why would the material on the inside of a lid get damaged, faded, worn or covered in stains?

The brass has not been cleaned...is not brass its white brass..German silver, nickel silver whatever you wish to call it.

The wood is not refinished, not re checkered, not cracked, no re varnished, not dented or chipped, and certainly never re stocked.

Its very easy to comment on something you have not seen in your own hands with your own eyes, and that you don't own and probably never will.

IN MY QUALIFIED & PROFESSIONAL OPINION THE PISTOLS ARE EXHIBITION QUALITY AS PREVIOUSLY REPRESENTED


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Igorrock
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232614 - 17/07/13 04:39 AM

Quote:

Its very easy to comment on something you have not seen in your own hands with your own eyes, and that you don't own and probably never will.


If you open a new topic to showcase yours weapons, it´s quite normal that people here will discus what they see and not always only admiring that. Some of those commentators have very long experience and good knowledge of old and rare weapons. That´s why I comprehend their comments, though these comments aren´t always positive.

--------------------
http://promaakari.wordpress.com/

Edited by Igorrock (17/07/13 02:15 PM)


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Huvius
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232615 - 17/07/13 04:44 AM

Quote:

Huvlus..

The material on the inside lid is original. Why would the material on the inside of a lid get damaged, faded, worn or covered in stains?

The brass has not been cleaned...is not brass its white brass..German silver, nickel silver whatever you wish to call it.

The wood is not refinished, not re checkered, not cracked, no re varnished, not dented or chipped, and certainly never re stocked.

Its very easy to comment on something you have not seen in your own hands with your own eyes, and that you don't own and probably never will.

IN MY QUALIFIED & PROFESSIONAL OPINION THE PISTOLS ARE EXHIBITION QUALITY AS PREVIOUSLY REPRESENTED




Quote:

Huvlus..

The material on the inside lid is original. Why would the material on the inside of a lid get damaged, faded, worn or covered in stains?

The brass has not been cleaned...is not brass its white brass..German sil




There is quite a bit of wear on the vertical surfaces of the dividers which indicate that there must have been loose items stowed in those compartments which are not there now. One would expect that there would be commensurate wear to the interior of the lid if, again IF, the case was ever stowed in a position other than flat.
There are pressure spots on the interior surface of the lid that do not correlate with the dividers and compartments of the case.
There are stains on the label which do not communicate to the surrounding lining material.
The worn areas on the label from the hammer pivot screws reveal bright blue liner beneath where one would expect to see worn and darkened liner material.

Although I obviously have never held these pistols in my hand "and probably never will", there is enough to see in the pictures which should raise honest questions about what once accompanied the pistols which is not presently there. Why?

How would a cased pair of guns somehow emerge after some 160+/- years in nearly perfect condition yet the interior of the original case display such wear?

No, I am not going to quit my day job.
It affords me the ability to buy my guns from somebody other than you...

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Nordmann
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Huvius]
      #232618 - 17/07/13 08:07 AM

Huvlus

In answer to your most interesting but utterly baseless concerns I offer the following facts rather than mistaken observations and opinions seemingly to arise from dare I say a degree of envy?

The case is missing the powder flask and the bullet mould. Interestingly enough the cleaning rod and original key are present. Staining on a trade label is quite common both from oil adhering to the locks as well as humidity which can cause the nitric acid used in manufacture of paper in the 18th, 19th, and early 20th centuries to yellow and discolor the linen or rag fibers over time.

Unlike so-called "French" casings which grip the pistols and their accessories securely, partition type or "English" style casings allow pistols to rub against and indeed often detach the partitions when the case is carried in any other than a flat position. Even mild jostling can result in tearing of lining or broken dividers.

The pistols themselves, which are the main point of discussion, remain in remarkable, pristine condition throughout with all finishes including blueing, browning, casehardening, and varnish original and nearly as intact as when they left Henry Tathum's premises at 37 Charing Cross 175 years ago. A delight to the eye these beautiful examples of the apogee of the percussion gunmaker's art are certain to please the most discriminating collector of English pistols or aficionado of fine antique firearms in general.

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


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TH44
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #232622 - 17/07/13 08:39 AM

The last few posts are the exact reason I thought long and hard about posting earlier, and probably on reflection, should not have done so. I had just prepared a full page post on the subject but most of it is informed opinion from my own experience so it is better left.

My apologies to all concerned

TH44


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Huvius
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: TH44]
      #232627 - 17/07/13 11:16 AM

I clearly should have kept my opinions and questions to myself as well.
If anybody else has insight as to my questions about what "makes" a Howdah pistol (and if any features would preclude a gun from being a Howdah) I would genuinely like to hear.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Nordmann
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Huvius]
      #232632 - 17/07/13 08:43 PM

I accept that what is supreme to my way of thinking may not be to someone else. Thus, the question of "best" and "original" can never be resolved here...

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


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jaz
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #233954 - 10/08/13 09:26 PM

Howdah = big money
Travelers or Gentlemans = less money
The features of these are not correct for a true Howdah pistol. Could it have been used - yes, but probably not.
Most notable here is the fact they "were purchased out of a collection" - but are now for sale at a rather inflated price.
This post was an advertisement.
Nordman - I see you advertise quite a few guns on Guns International - in my opinion they are priced at three to four times what their value should be.
To troll for someone with more money than brains is not an admirable but understandable.
This has nothing to do with jealousy. This forum is here for enjoyment, to learn, teach, and trade ideas.If you post something, it is up for discussion, whether it is criticism or praise.
I 100% agree with Huvius


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: jaz]
      #233957 - 10/08/13 10:09 PM

I don't know whether these are "original finish" or not. From the photos I would opine that the barrels are re-browned because there appears to be more aging of the locks than the barrels. The wood finish is rather shiney as well, raising questions in my mind.

However, these are interpretations of not-so-good photos. That is no substitute for inspecting the weapons in-hand. I say this more as an observation of the photography and not as a judgment of the items themselves.

Certainly the comments of other members are fair. Nobody but Nordmann has held these pistols. The pistols are not on trial, but this is fundamentally a discussion forum.

I am very thankful to have these displayed. They are beautiful and rare. It is not often we have the opportunity to see photos of such fine pieces, let alone have the opportunity to hold such items. Thanks for placing them here for display.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Nordmann
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: CptCurl]
      #233958 - 10/08/13 10:40 PM

To make an opinion which is totally incorrect is far less admirable on your part. May I ask, on what do you base your opinions and what qualifies you as an expert on anything, let alone price?

This forum is here for enjoyment, to learn, teach and trade ideas......that is correct

But, as an active participant of this forum I get very little enjoyment from reading unqualified and dumbfounded opinions such as yours, especially when relating to "price" or "values" of which you quite obviously have no clue -

In your opinion everything I own is advertised at a price three to four times what the true value should be....how can that be?

For example, I currently have a Holland & Holland Royal deluxe .500/.465 NE double rifle which is as new in the makers case. It has extra quality deluxe engraving with gold inlays. The gun is advertised at $200,000. But based on your opinion, one can buy a Holland and Holland royal deluxe double rifle in 500/465 for between $50k and $66k!

They say that Google is your friend. So if you care to browse the internet you will find that there are approximately 51 high grade double rifles currently advertised for sale by a number of reputable dealers. These include 31 H&H Royals, 8 Purdeys, 9 Rigby's and 3 Westley Richards, (plus a number of round actions which I do not count) and including the 5 guns I have advertised. The total combined value of all these rifles is approx. $8,750,000, therefore an average price of $171,500 (approx.) each. This also includes all the rifles listed as POR because I know all the prices. A number of these are cheaper valued guns because of their caliber, for example .375 so although they are included they reduce the average price considerably.

So based on these "actual" figures, my rifle priced at $200,000 is parr for the course, especially because it is a H&H, large bore, extra finish, deluxe engraved gun with gold inlays and deep chisel engraving. It is most certainly not priced at three to four times its value!

This then brings me back to my mint pair of howdah pistols made by a best London maker priced at $40,000. Recently an inferior pair of Purdey howdah pistols brought £21,000 at a London auction, plus commission. The guns were totally refinished. I have seen a small number of howdah's sold, a few single guns and few pairs (they are rare, and mine being front actioned locks, even rarer), and most if not all of them were inferior to the pair I have advertised, and several of them sold in a similar price range to mine.

Additionally, for you to say that they are not howdah pistols is just as ridiculous as saying they are overpriced.

Everyone is quite rightly entitled to their own opinion, but in this instance your "uneducated" opinion is wrong and based on nothing substantial.

Furthermore, almost everything that I have advertised, I own, that means- I invested a considerable amount of my own cash, and for doing that I deserve to make a fair profit, or a decent return on my investment.

I very much doubt, just by the nature of your stupidity, that you do not have anything invested in anything good, let alone the time it takes to study and understand the market and the fundamentals of business / ie. supply and demand! I say this with an amount of certainty because, to me, if you owned anything great then it would make common sense that you would have a vested interest in maintaining that prices stay high, simply in order to protect your own investment.

You Sir are quite simply a tire kicker, a wanna be, a photo collector, a person who only dreams of owning that which is truly great and wants to invest nothing.

In conclusion, all I can say is this: no one will learn anything from your teachings or ideas on here, so your value to this forum is highly disputable.

Thats my opinion.

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

Edited by Nordmann (11/08/13 01:01 AM)


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #233966 - 11/08/13 12:08 AM

I have an interesting story (to me anyway) ! About 10 years ago I wanted to buy a good pair of duelling pistols in their case, After quite a while a pair came up at Sothebys from memory, so I went to look at them, estimate was about 15kGBP if I remember correctly. They were exquisite, almost certainly unfired in their French style case which was also immaculate, I left a reserve bid and went on my way. Then I got a call from Sothebys, the monogrammed oval on the case was initialled and Sothebys had found the pair was made for Napoleans brother !! needless to say I didn´t get them, they were bought by a big museum in France for GBP60k (which if you think about the provenance doesn´t sound too bad). What made me laugh was that I use all my guns so had Sothebys not discovered what they did, I would be hoiking one of those pistols around the country behind the house trying to shoot rabbits with it ! (unsuccesfully of course )

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Oldbrit
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: CptCurl]
      #233967 - 11/08/13 12:09 AM

A member had this at my Club a while ago but sadly all I managed to get was a couple of pictures as he was leaving and no details....





Edited by CptCurl (28/09/13 10:36 PM)


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Oldbrit
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #233968 - 11/08/13 12:11 AM

Quote:

I would be hoiking one of those pistols around the country behind the house trying to shoot rabbits with it ! (unsuccesfully of course )




And of course, not in the UK!!!!


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Oldbrit]
      #233970 - 11/08/13 12:26 AM

OldBrit, is it illegal to use a black powder pistol on game in the UK ? best

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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #233971 - 11/08/13 12:30 AM

By the way for you guys over the pond if you get the chance go to Hollands in NY and ask to look at the pair of Howdahs they have in their collection, sublime. best

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Huvius
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: jaz]
      #233972 - 11/08/13 12:42 AM

Quote:

Howdah = big money
Travelers or Gentlemans = less money
The features of these are not correct for a true Howdah pistol.




This is what I want to get at. Features.

Surely there is a period catalog somewhere which details the features of what the trade would term a "Howdah Pistol".

On this particular pair, the stalking safeties are much more a feature of Traveler or Officer's pistols.
Not a very useful feature on a Howdah pistol. Really, not a very good feature to have on a Howdah pistol.

Also, note the more diminutive rounded grips. Contrast that to the cartridge Howdah pictured above. Although a later gun, obviously, it displays a definite flair at the grip cap which is a typical feature of a Howdah pistol.

As a last line of defense against a raging Tiger, Howdah pistols are the epitome of the "all that you need and nothing you don't" premise in design.

That is my opinion, and as you say, Nordmann, you can take it or leave it.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

Edited by Huvius (11/08/13 12:54 AM)


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Nordmann
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Huvius]
      #233973 - 11/08/13 12:55 AM

Mike, I think rabbits can be classed as vermin, not game...especially when they in my veggies.

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.

Edited by Nordmann (11/08/13 12:57 AM)


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Oldbrit
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #233991 - 11/08/13 06:08 AM

Quote:

OldBrit, is it illegal to use a black powder pistol on game in the UK ?




Not strictly illegal but you would need a firearms certificate from the police allowing you to do it. If you can get one then you might just be able to talk the Queen into selling you the crown jewels for fourpence. It's more likely that I will win the National Lottery.... and I don't even buy a ticket.


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DarylS
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Oldbrit]
      #233995 - 11/08/13 06:54 AM

I thought the Police were there to serve and protect, just like here where they break into houses and steal firearms?

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Oldbrit]
      #233999 - 11/08/13 07:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:

OldBrit, is it illegal to use a black powder pistol on game in the UK ?




Not strictly illegal but you would need a firearms certificate from the police allowing you to do it. If you can get one then you might just be able to talk the Queen into selling you the crown jewels for fourpence. It's more likely that I will win the National Lottery.... and I don't even buy a ticket.




LOL didn´t realise it was that difficult !


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500Nitro
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #234000 - 11/08/13 08:55 AM


Nordmann

Having just read this thread, I would really like to know
why you think the case lid interior is original considering all the points mentioned.

Re your prices and those of others, a big difference seems to exist between asking and getting and I know of a few who have purchased from the likes of top end in the US and what they get is not always the same.

You can ask anything, some that it doesn't matter to might pay it, oil rich arabs for one.

And re "Holland royal deluxe double rifle", I know of one
purchased in the last few years for roughly what you said it couldn't be.


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470evans
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #234004 - 11/08/13 10:18 AM

Quote:

To make an opinion which is totally incorrect is far less admirable on your part. May I ask, on what do you base your opinions and what qualifies you as an expert on anything, let alone price?

This forum is here for enjoyment, to learn, teach and trade ideas......that is correct

But, as an active participant of this forum I get very little enjoyment from reading unqualified and dumbfounded opinions such as yours, especially when relating to "price" or "values" of which you quite obviously have no clue -

In your opinion everything I own is advertised at a price three to four times what the true value should be....how can that be?

For example, I currently have a Holland & Holland Royal deluxe .500/.465 NE double rifle which is as new in the makers case. It has extra quality deluxe engraving with gold inlays. The gun is advertised at $200,000. But based on your opinion, one can buy a Holland and Holland royal deluxe double rifle in 500/465 for between $50k and $66k!

They say that Google is your friend. So if you care to browse the internet you will find that there are approximately 51 high grade double rifles currently advertised for sale by a number of reputable dealers. These include 31 H&H Royals, 8 Purdeys, 9 Rigby's and 3 Westley Richards, (plus a number of round actions which I do not count) and including the 5 guns I have advertised. The total combined value of all these rifles is approx. $8,750,000, therefore an average price of $171,500 (approx.) each. This also includes all the rifles listed as POR because I know all the prices. A number of these are cheaper valued guns because of their caliber, for example .375 so although they are included they reduce the average price considerably.

So based on these "actual" figures, my rifle priced at $200,000 is parr for the course, especially because it is a H&H, large bore, extra finish, deluxe engraved gun with gold inlays and deep chisel engraving. It is most certainly not priced at three to four times its value!

This then brings me back to my mint pair of howdah pistols made by a best London maker priced at $40,000. Recently an inferior pair of Purdey howdah pistols brought £21,000 at a London auction, plus commission. The guns were totally refinished. I have seen a small number of howdah's sold, a few single guns and few pairs (they are rare, and mine being front actioned locks, even rarer), and most if not all of them were inferior to the pair I have advertised, and several of them sold in a similar price range to mine.

Additionally, for you to say that they are not howdah pistols is just as ridiculous as saying they are overpriced.

Everyone is quite rightly entitled to their own opinion, but in this instance your "uneducated" opinion is wrong and based on nothing substantial.

Furthermore, almost everything that I have advertised, I own, that means- I invested a considerable amount of my own cash, and for doing that I deserve to make a fair profit, or a decent return on my investment.

I very much doubt, just by the nature of your stupidity, that you do not have anything invested in anything good, let alone the time it takes to study and understand the market and the fundamentals of business / ie. supply and demand! I say this with an amount of certainty because, to me, if you owned anything great then it would make common sense that you would have a vested interest in maintaining that prices stay high, simply in order to protect your own investment.

You Sir are quite simply a tire kicker, a wanna be, a photo collector, a person who only dreams of owning that which is truly great and wants to invest nothing.

In conclusion, all I can say is this: no one will learn anything from your teachings or ideas on here, so your value to this forum is highly disputable.

Thats my opinion.




This post reminds me of a few posters in years gone by that aren't posting anymore. Have to say that I don't miss them and I won't miss this guy when he tires and moves on. Any knowledgeable person who ignores the overpriced stuff at Barnett's, CSMC and our friend's here will get a much better idea of the real market. And yes, I own three very nice Holland doubles....not that that is required to have good taste.


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DarylS
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: 470evans]
      #234017 - 11/08/13 03:14 PM

Much more eloquent than the post I deleted before clicking on 'continue', 470evans.
Thankyou.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #234023 - 11/08/13 03:59 PM

Glad that tirade was not against Curl's polite comments.

Quote:

This has nothing to do with jealousy. This forum is here for enjoyment, to learn, teach, and trade ideas.If you post something, it is up for discussion, whether it is criticism or praise.




Absolutely. We have a classified adverts forums for buying and selling. For non-commercial sellers (Commercial sellers are generally called 'sponsors' ...) On the classified pages discussion is not generally encouraged other than if seriously interested or if something is very wrong in the advert. On discussion forums polite discussion is encouraged, and if for sale "adverts" are posted on them, seller beware, the items may be questioned.

NE really needs to setup its own specialised "for sale/auction" software ...

Price is the sellers and the buyers business and choices. If it never sells then I guess the seller has got it wrong. Personally I wish for the days when a H&H, WR, top grade DR was available for $3000 to $7000 in Australia - not that long ago - but those days will never return ...

One thing about NE, is the members here are generally more cluey about what is right, wrong and the market. A good place for people to learn all sorts of stuff.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Oldbrit
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: DarylS]
      #234035 - 11/08/13 07:59 PM

Quote:

I thought the Police were there to serve and protect, just like here where they break into houses and steal firearms?




Daryl,

In a jocular manner, you raise an important point. The British police exist to maintain the Queen's peace, they have no absolute duty to protect any individual one of Her subjects. If they did and you got hit over the head with a brick, then you could sue them for dereliction of duty - but you can't.

This gives the lie to the claim you so often hear in the UK, that you have no need of the means of self-protection because the police are there to do that for you. It's just not true and discussion of the feasibility of that argument (i.e. the impossibility of having your own personal policeman with you all the time) is a side issue.

In evidence for what I say, I offer up the London Riots where the police pursued a policy of containment rather than protection of individuals. (At least that's what they said.)

(P.S. I'm trying to ignore the battle of words going on in this subject. Sometimes these things happen in forums but they are a right pain in the fundament.)


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Oldbrit]
      #234036 - 11/08/13 09:29 PM

"(P.S. I'm trying to ignore the battle of words going on in this subject. Sometimes these things happen in forums but they are a right pain in the fundament.)"

Fundament ! a word I haven´t heard in a very long time


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Nordmann
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #234037 - 11/08/13 09:58 PM

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win”, Gandhi

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


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oldcolonel
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Reged: 11/04/13
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Loc: Kansas
Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #234154 - 13/08/13 12:26 PM

Quote:

“First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win”, Gandhi




The exchange of thoughts to include arguments with the expansion of our community knowledge is what this board is about. Winning here is the expansion of knowledge and the exchange of informed opinion.

I would hope rather than attacking one another personally we would all stay on the polite argument of ideas. I doubt the quality/quantity of one's arsenal is proof of correctness; while it is true it may in indicate some knowledge. That knowledge is no more guaranteed to more be prefect than a well read member who has fewer or lesser guns.

On shotguns I could argue that that my huge in depth library which I have read and reread grants me greater knowledge than the owner of the largest and most expensive collection, but age has taught me I have been wrong before and will be again. Further doubleguns are both science and art and every rule seems to be successfully violated at one time or another by someone. I claim no expertise on howdah guns; I do claim some on manners.

Gentlemen, let us be just that, gentlemen, and positively go forward and argue opinions and dispense with attacks against persons

--------------------
old colonel, topeka kansas


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jaz
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: oldcolonel]
      #235584 - 13/09/13 11:01 AM

Colonel - agreed
Let my 8 year reputation on this site stand on its own.
Photo Collector


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Huvius
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: jaz]
      #239569 - 20/12/13 04:41 AM

Sold at auction for $15K including buyer's premium...

So much for them being worth $40K, eh Nordmann?

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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500Nitro
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Huvius]
      #239571 - 20/12/13 04:53 AM


Talking of high prices, I don't see many of the high priced DR's moving in the US, they all still seem to be listed.


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Nordmann
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: 500Nitro]
      #239595 - 20/12/13 09:45 AM

Huvius...I sold them 6 months ago and got my asking price.

How do you know that I wasn't the buyer at $15K?

--------------------
James Etherington-Thorpe - a man's reputation can be known by his words. Read Mr Thorpe's comments and judge his character by his own words and attitudes.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: Nordmann]
      #239621 - 21/12/13 12:31 AM

Quote:

Huvius...I sold them 6 months ago and got my asking price.

How do you know that I wasn't the buyer at $15K?




So they were sold for $40k before your first post on 12 July 2013 when this discussion began and before your rant about Jaz and others knowing nothing?

Interesting.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Cased pair of Howdah pistols [Re: CptCurl]
      #341667 - 03/06/20 10:27 PM

Tags: "Howdah"

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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