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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Buchsemann]
      #231592 - 25/06/13 02:35 AM


The Quick and the dead !!!


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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: DarylS]
      #231593 - 25/06/13 02:45 AM

Hello Daryl_S

Yes, that's the one. I never realized that I didn't have any color pictures of the bull Pup so I've updated my previous post with some color. Myrtlwood and Rosewood go good together.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231597 - 25/06/13 03:51 AM

Quote:

... I'd like to think that Westley Richards wouldn't have put a small front bead, and a 5-leaf rear site (50 - 300 yards) on a rifle if it wasn't meant to shoot to those ranges.

I should know the answer to the regulation question 15 seconds after I fire the first pair over the chronograph.





I have always viewed the long range multi leaves on DR express rear sights as more of a "marketing" gimmick from a hundred years ago.

With that barrel that rifle was definitely designed for close quick shots and probably as a howdah rifle.

I am interested to see what velocities you get with the 'standard' load and how they compare to a full length barrelled rifle.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: NitroX]
      #231600 - 25/06/13 05:47 AM


From what I have read and from people I know, those that have tried the multiple leaves have found them to be quite accurate.


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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: 500Nitro]
      #231608 - 25/06/13 09:05 AM

Hello 500Nitro,

Well, here is my first group - 2-5/8" at 50 yds. and about 5-1/2" above point of aim. I used 45g of R15 with a 270 Hornady SP and WLR primers. Overall loaded length (picked at random) was 3.300" I think its a good starting point. The ave velocity was 1764 fps with a spread of only 20fps. In fact 4 of the 6 shots were within 6 fps.

This velocity was not too far off my estimate of 1700 fps.

I did try 2 each at 46g @ 1820 fps ave (it shot 1/2" higher) and 47g @ 1869 fps ave (it shot 1-1/4" higher and cases showed signs of "sticking" so 47g is too hot in this rifle)

Next load will be reduced to 44g and 43g and 42g, to see if the groups shoot lower and tighter. I will also try some 235g just for fun.

Now, as far as shooting goes, THIS LITTLE BUGGER IS FUN! Recoil is very manageable, and I could shoot it all day long.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DarylS
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231609 - 25/06/13 09:15 AM

Considering your location & possible uses, I'd even try a 220 Hornady FN. The .235 Speer SRN, might easily prove too tough at those lower speeds, considering it expanded poorly when driven at 2,000fps from a .375 Winchester M94 (Fadala's test).
The 220gr. Hornady was designed for the .375 Winchester and the ones I put into moose, showed wonderful expansion, weight retention as well as side to side penetration which included a shoulder on the impact side. Too, there is a 200gr. Sierra FN that might be interesting as well. I am wondering if the lighter bullets might give parallel separation to the barrels & lower impacts? Just a thought.
This is fun. It's even better is the speculation bears fruit.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: DarylS]
      #231611 - 25/06/13 09:51 AM


Buck

I'd stick to the 3 next loads to see what they do first
before loading up the lower weight bullets.

The old rule of change one thing at a time !
plus it might give you an idea of where to go.

The 75% rule might not apply to this gun / cartridge
BUT who makes 200gn projectiles ?

Anyone ?


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AkMike
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: 500Nitro]
      #231612 - 25/06/13 10:20 AM

Hawk shows a flat point at 200 grains.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand


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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: 500Nitro]
      #231613 - 25/06/13 10:21 AM


Buck

Looking at yur target, I gather you are aiming for the middle of the circle ? It just looks like R3 AND L3 had a different sight picture when you fired.

Might I suggest putting a 1" white sticker (round)
on the black part at 6 o'clock and aiming for that ?

The 1" white circle is easily covered by the front bead
and the Big black circle will nestle into the V of the
sights, thereby making sure you have exactly the same sight picture each time.


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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: 500Nitro]
      #231615 - 25/06/13 11:11 AM

Hello 500Nitro,

Yes, very good observation. Actually, R1 L1 R2 L2 were fired first. I had loaded 6 rounds with that load, but initially only fired 4 of them. After testing the other loads, and after the rifle had cooled, I fired the last 2 rounds of that first load. I think I had learned a little better of the trigger control at that point, and they printed a tad different than the first 4 shots, albeit in the same group.

As far as aiming goes, the front bead fits nicely into the black ring with a sliver of white showing around the bead. My old eyes can't see a 1" white sticker at 50 yards.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231616 - 25/06/13 11:35 AM


Buck

Well the "sliver" of white" does the same thing so
not a problem.

You get used to looking at targets and being able
to pick things like different sight picture up.


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231617 - 25/06/13 11:37 AM

Quote:

BUT who makes 200gn projectiles ?





Sierra.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: CptCurl]
      #231632 - 25/06/13 06:28 PM

That would make a superb fast handing "monteria" rifle, most shots being 70 yards or less, usually under 50. How is the balance ?
best, Mike


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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #231639 - 25/06/13 08:41 PM

Hello Mike_Bailey,

Quote:

That would make a superb fast handing "monteria" rifle,



Monteria are pigs, right?

Yes, I believe it would. It is very fast handling and it balances perfectly. The short barrels provide for a center of gravity almost exactly in the middle of the receiver. Carrying the rifle in the hand at this balance point, will make it very maneuverable here in Wisconsin's heavy brush.

And, the hefty weight of 8lbs 9oz, is just right to counteract the quickened swing of the shorter barrels. Its absolutely amazing and hard to put into words. You can handily bring the rifle to shoulder for a fast swinging shot - and yet the recoil is dampened by the weight to neutralize muzzle lift if a fast second shot is needed. Westley Richards must have had "balance" and "swing" in mind when they configured the length and weight of the barrels. I guess this would make sense, because a Customer that gets eaten by a Tiger, is not a repeat customer.

I told a friend at the club yesterday to close his eyes before I handed him the rifle. I told him to shoulder it. When I told him to open his eyes, his face turned from a questioning expression, into a big smile. He couldn't believe the muzzle was less than 8" beyond his left hand. As he re-shouldered it, again and again, and aimed it about, He said the "swing" and "balance" was nearly as nimble as his side-lock 28ga quail double, which only weighed 6 pounds.

I'm sure the deer in Wisconsin will be shaking in their hooves this fall.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231645 - 25/06/13 09:44 PM

Hello All,

As a follow-up, ...... I've been communicating via email with Westley Richards & Co. in England, in an attempt to obtain more detailed information about the history of my interesting little rifle. Since this rifle was built on an earlier numbered action, I was hoping to find the original purchaser's name. My thinking is that perhaps "he" later commissioned the work for this shorter barreled rifle through Saleh & Co.





I questioned if information was available for the earlier serial number (T7848) referenced in the original ledger entry for this rifle's serial number. (T9590) -

Quote:

"... The rifle T7848 was originally built as a .30-06 double rifle that was altered so that the action was used to make the .375 non ejector #T9590. It is unclear as to how advanced the original .30-06 rifle was before the alteration. These works were completed in 1925.
..."





I asked if rifle T7848 was ever shipped out of the Westley Richards Factory to a Customer? -

Quote:

"... I am afraid that the ledger is unclear on this. Lets assume not. ..."




I asked if any other rifles were built by Westley Richards with 16" barrels? -

Quote:

"... It is unlikely that we built many rifles with barrels this short. I would think that it was used as a back up rifle in a Howdah, just in case! ..."




This last statement from Westley Richards makes me think I might indeed have a "one-of-a-kind".

I will keep copies of all these additional communications from Westley Richards with the original Factory Documentation and Letter of Authenticity so that the provenance for this rifle is preserved.

I've watched enough Antique's Road Show to have learned that in some cases, the Provenance can more than double the valuable of the item.

.

--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DarylS
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231651 - 26/06/13 12:20 AM

Good communication with Westley Richards, buckstix!

An interesting gun for sure and I agree - it will be a "smasher for deer" in the bush, once you get loads sorted out.

Lyman's and RCBS's cast bullets in 250 to 275gr. have flat noses and make good 'deer' bullets as well.

I have some commercial 310gr. with Rooster-red lube but don't know where they came from, ie; who made them. They'd also be a good hunting bullet, albeit slower and more deeply penetrating.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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FrankFarmer
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: Buchsemann]
      #231655 - 26/06/13 12:52 AM

Congratulations Buckstix, Beautiful rifle, great research, thank you for sharing! Don't forget to wear your silver cross for those deer hunts!

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231660 - 26/06/13 04:38 AM

In my collection, I have a Westley Richards double, about same vintage, in same caliber. Also, I have several other British rifles in same caliber, some hammer doubles, but most hammerless; some regulated for 270 grain bullets; some regulated for 300 grain bullets. The best accuracy and regulation I ever got, for 270 grain bullet rifles, was using 40 to 43 grains of 4895, with dacron filler.

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231661 - 26/06/13 04:43 AM

This original cordite cartridge was loaded to shoot at velocity of just under 2,000 fps, but I often shoot handloads right at 2,000 fps with great results, using 4895---

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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #231662 - 26/06/13 04:53 AM

Hello doubleriflejack,

I appreciate the info. Did the variable 40-43 grains of 4895 give 2000 fps in different rifles. In other words, did some rifles achieve 2000 fps with 40 grains, while others required 43 grains to get that velocity? Was this loading at acceptable pressures, giving "easy extraction"?

By the way. I did discover a drawback for using a rifle with such a short barrel. When you use a boat cushion to steady your rest, you have to make sure the end of the barrel extends beyond the cushion. Dah?



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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DarylS
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231674 - 26/06/13 01:08 PM

HA! - good thing your hat wasn't "in the line of fire"!

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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savage458
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231694 - 27/06/13 02:46 AM

buckstix

Very interesting Bull Pup gun,a also am shooting Bull Pup, but mine is 219 Donaldson Wasp, made on "Baby Enfield" action for Harvey. I got it from his widow way back in early 70's. Gun is super accurate 1 rugged hole at 100 yrds, with Nosler bullets. She told me that Harvey used it in O-Games in Rome, i think in 1952 ? It has 15 power UNERTL scope. All lower parts hand made, and of course Baby Enfield cut-down and rewelded. Ever saw one like that ?


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buckstix
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: savage458]
      #231770 - 28/06/13 06:38 AM

Hello savage458,

Never saw one like that. Do you have pictures?

I went to the range again today to test the WR Howdah again. I tried IMR 4895 instead of R15. Overall pressures were good. I was testing different seating depths, but half way through the testing I found I had mixed some shells and the results were inconclusive. Lucky for me the last 4 cartridges all had the same bullet seating depth so it looks like I'm making progress. Still shooting a little high and right, but getting better.

Also, velocities were "up" being 100 fps higher than the R15. Overall average vel. was 1886 fps. I'm really looking forward to the next outing. This little rifle is a "hoot" to shoot.



--------------------
"You never pay too much for something, you only buy it too early."


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500Nitro
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231772 - 28/06/13 07:03 AM


Individual groups look very good.

Hope you are able to bring the R down or L up.

That's good velocity out of such short barrels.


Re mixing ammo, it's a bugger isn't it !
Did that on a hunt once testing bullets.


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: Howdah you like this? Westley Richards 375 2-1/2 w/16" bbls [Re: buckstix]
      #231801 - 28/06/13 06:30 PM

Monteria is boar, red deer, fallow and a hare if you are lucky best

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