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Well_Well_Well
.333 member

Reged: 03/01/07
Posts: 305
Loc: Australia

Which 450-400?
#228771 - 15/04/13 12:36 PM

I've been perusing websites and catalogues and observing manufacturers who publish a chambering of 450-400 for newly built rifles.

I did, however have a sudden thought;

I've been assuming these are all the 3" version, but there is of course the possibility that at some of these manufacturers may be producing riles in 3 1/4" or some other variation.

Have I been correct in assuming the 3" or have I been leading myself down the garden path?

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AkMike
.416 member

Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: Well_Well_Well]
#228772 - 15/04/13 01:35 PM

The 3"is the common one now.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3530
Loc: Colorado

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: Well_Well_Well]
#228773 - 15/04/13 01:37 PM

I would bet that any 450/400 made today would be in the 3" version.
Not sure anybody made a 3-1/4" after 1910 or so.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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casper50
.400 member

Reged: 18/10/07
Posts: 1350
Loc: Alaska

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: Huvius]
#228804 - 16/04/13 01:03 AM

I liked my 450-400 2 3/8 BPE. Just not a fan of hammerguns so I sold it.

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TH44
.375 member

Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 733
Loc: West UK

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: casper50]
#228839 - 16/04/13 09:16 AM

I agree with Huvius and AK Mike, AFAIK the 3" case is/was the only Nitro loading

TH44

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CptCurl
.450 member

Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5273
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: TH44]
#228842 - 16/04/13 10:38 AM

Quote:

I agree with Huvius and AK Mike, AFAIK the 3" case is/was the only Nitro loading

TH44

No, the 3-1/4" case was loaded in a nitro loading as well. It pre-dates the 3" Jeffery case. Ballistics are essentially the same.

I agree that modern rifles seem to have focused on the Jeffery loading.

Here's a view of the flats of a W.W. Greener nitro double rifle built in 1928 and chambered in .450/.400 3-1/4" NE.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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CptCurl
.450 member

Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5273
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: CptCurl]
#228843 - 16/04/13 10:46 AM

Likewise, I have an Army & Navy Farquharson chambered in .450/.400 3-1/4" NE. You can see it at this thread:

Army & Navy CSL Farquharson - .450/.400 3.25" NE

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3530
Loc: Colorado

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: CptCurl]
#228881 - 17/04/13 01:44 AM

I knew the 3-1/4" was nitro loaded. What I meant was that it really fell out after Jeffery introduced the 3".
There are good reasons to use the 3" case, one being the thicker rim. The "Tropical" load of 55grs of cordite was introduced in the 3-1/4" case due to extraction problems which can be made worse with a thin rim.
I think the OP is about modern made guns. There really is no reason to use the 3-1/4" case today.

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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93mouse
.375 member

Reged: 17/08/07
Posts: 731
Loc: Slovenia

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: Huvius]
#228886 - 17/04/13 02:23 AM

Quote:

There really is no reason to use the 3-1/4" case today.

...unless it comes in a 1909 Webley like this

- I'd love to own it:

http://www.heymusa.com/inventory/2011_Webley_400/Webley_400.htm

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3530
Loc: Colorado

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: 93mouse]
#228888 - 17/04/13 03:30 AM

I am vying for a Webley longbar right now as well. In 450/400 3-1/4" as well....

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He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3530
Loc: Colorado

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: Huvius]
#228890 - 17/04/13 03:45 AM

Curl,
That Greener is a late gun for a 3-1/4"
I wonder if there is a good reason to choose the longer chambering that I am overlooking. Other than the fact that Greener often dismissed innovations from other makers in those days.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: Huvius]
#228897 - 17/04/13 07:22 AM

Huvius

I have the exact same gun except mine is covered with engraving and a silver finish. They are great guns.
I have a couple on that Webley Long bar.

Re the 3 1/4", if it comes with it, use it,
if not, don't is the way I look at it.

If you bought a new one, I'd go 3" but
if an old gun in 3 1/4" came up for sale,
I'd still buy it.

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TH44
.375 member

Reged: 21/02/09
Posts: 733
Loc: West UK

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: 500Nitro]
#228899 - 17/04/13 08:45 AM

OK I blew it! Rule number one - do not post after a couple of glasses of single malt with brain out of gear without checking facts first!

Both my Hoyem and Fleming's books list the nitro loadings

Must do better!

TH 44

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Well_Well_Well
.333 member

Reged: 03/01/07
Posts: 305
Loc: Australia

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: TH44]
#228927 - 17/04/13 05:47 PM

Thanks very much all.

Yes I was thinking of new guns, but the information on dates (and curl's flats) helps me should I stumble across a gem.

Cheers

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CptCurl
.450 member

Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5273
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: Huvius]
#228957 - 18/04/13 04:24 AM

Quote:

Curl,
That Greener is a late gun for a 3-1/4"
I wonder if there is a good reason to choose the longer chambering that I am overlooking. Other than the fact that Greener often dismissed innovations from other makers in those days.

Huvius,

I dunno! I agree it is late for a 3.25" gun, and I agree with your analysis as why the Jeffery round has been preferred. Sources I have read state that Jeffery did not like the practice of "upgrading" old BPE rounds to full nitro loadings; and thus, he modified the .450/.400 to his thick rim and 3" case.

The Greener is on its way to Virginia. I'm glad it is chambered 3.25" because I have two other rifles of that chamber and all necessary loading equipment and components. I'll be interested to learn what groove diameter it sports. The fact is, I've never owned a rifle chambered for the 3" round, though it probably will happen before I go to my great reward.

So, what .450/.400 are you sniffing around?

It's a hell of a hobby we pursue!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3530
Loc: Colorado

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: CptCurl]
#228963 - 18/04/13 06:25 AM

Quote:

So, what .450/.400 are you sniffing around?

Well, I might as well reveal it!
There is a Gibbs at the Rock Island auction this weekend.
Looks like it may be a bit rough, but the estimate is low and I made my bid.
If anybody needs it worse than I, then so be it. I doubt my bid is enough anyway.

A couple nice Alex Henry falling blocks there too.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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Dutch44
.275 member

Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: Huvius]
#229236 - 23/04/13 08:10 AM

Huvius:
Did your bid win out? I had my sidelock (H&H style back action) ordered in the 3 1/4. Made the old fashioned way by one of the fellows at WR. Barrels by another fellow from Purdeys. Have had 7 or 8 rifles in this caliber and would not hesitate to have another one made. Received it without the ejectors timed and JJ is doing it now. Will post photos of this rifle when I receive it.

Dutch

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Huvius
.416 member

Reged: 04/11/07
Posts: 3530
Loc: Colorado

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: Dutch44]
#229237 - 23/04/13 08:19 AM

I din't get the Gibbs, but did end up high bidder on an Alex Henry single shot.
Not an original gun as it has been sleeved to .22 Hornet or something but should be a nice little rifle if it shoots well.

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: Huvius]
#229240 - 23/04/13 08:39 AM

Dutch
"Received it without the ejectors timed"

How did they manage that ?

Seems strange.

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CptCurl
.450 member

Reged: 01/05/04
Posts: 5273
Loc: Fincastle, Botetourt County, V...

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: 500Nitro]
#229243 - 23/04/13 09:59 AM

My Greener facile princeps .450/.400 3-1/4" NE was delivered today. Exquisite! Made in 1928 and remains like new.

I makes a nice stable mate for my 1909 fascile princeps in .400/.360 2-3/4" NE. :-)

I suppose pictures should follow.

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.

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AkMike
.416 member

Reged: 19/11/05
Posts: 2576
Loc: Anchorage, Alaska

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: CptCurl]
#229245 - 23/04/13 12:45 PM

I was also trying for a couple at the RI auction. The Woodward 500 and the Moore and Grey 4 bore.

I didn't get either one.

--------------------
"When you see that in order to produce, you need to obtain permission from men who produce nothing; when you see that money is flowing to those who deal not in goods, but in favors; you may know that your society is doomed." Ayn Rand

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Dutch44
.275 member

Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: AkMike]
#229251 - 23/04/13 10:31 PM

500Nitro:
Barreled action received here in the states and stocked by Nate Heineke. Nate was finishing is up for my trip to Zim last August but not enough time to get the ejectors finished. Sweetest handling rifle I've ever owned. Regulated to point of aim at 50 yards and will accompany me on my next trip to Africa.

Nate knows how to stock a rifle.

Dutch

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500Nitro
.450 member

Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: Dutch44]
#229252 - 23/04/13 11:51 PM

Thanks for the eplanation. Answers everything.

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Dutch44
.275 member

Reged: 23/02/06
Posts: 80
Loc: Missouri

Re: Which 450-400? [Re: 500Nitro]
#229264 - 24/04/13 08:24 AM

I'll post pics when JJ sends it to me in the next month or two.

Dutch

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