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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #22592 - 24/12/04 05:34 AM

mehulkamdar,

Thanks for the kind compliment.

If Purdey brought it back, nobody would be able to afford it.

Have you seen the new Purdey hammer shotgun? It's not as nice as the old ones, and is priced in six figures!

Merry Christmas,
CptCurl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Morten
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Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22594 - 24/12/04 07:49 AM

I have seen it firsthand, I saw the first one the day it left for Reno last year in the workshop of Purdey. And if this one is not a beautie, nothing is. I know some collectors wanted Bar-in-Wood action but that was not to be because of the nowadays chartridges. It is actually an almost 100% copy of the 1920's hammerguns. If I remember it correct the hammers are probably smaler but not much. What is it with it that is not of your liking??

I have also seen a breand new Woodward Side/side. This one was also wery nice and true Woodward in al aspects. I don't remember the price but I dont think that it differs so much from new Purdeys. I am of to London in the beginning of feb. and I will certanly ask them if they would build an Woodward rifle on this action if someone asked.

But this one was a real nice rifle. annybodys dreamgun. What more could you ask for. Lots of personality and a unike rifle with a great name and history. congrats.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: Morten]
      #22596 - 24/12/04 08:09 AM

Morten,

I agree, the new Purdey hammer gun is a beauty, but look how much it costs!

We are fortunate to be able to get a vintage Purdey hammer gun for maybe 15% of the cost of a new one.

I'll take the vintage gun. I can't afford the new one. But there is nothing I dislike about it.

The new Purdey had been pictured several times in the DGJ, and I had the good fortune to see and handle it in NY last September at the Vintagers.

Best,
CptCurl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Morten
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Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22598 - 24/12/04 08:24 AM

How many of the customers of purdeys does realy think much of the price?? This guns are for collectors that have enough. some of them even order a whole series of guns in different calibers with engraving from a spesific engraver. When I was there I handeld a set of four O/U 12 bore with Phil Coggan game scenes. That was some guns. Do you know if this articles in DGJ is on the net or where I could find it. I have the Purdey Price list, but not at my recent plase. I will check it up. But this thread was not about Purdey and engravings and prices. sorry.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: Morten]
      #22647 - 25/12/04 11:08 AM

Hello Morten,

Good to see you here. After your article on Purdeys, please plan an article on the new Woodwards. Very few of us even knew that they had been reintroduced and I have to thank you for your knowledge and assistance with this information from your research. Perhaps, the Purdey company do not wish to market the Woodward name very openly as the old Woodwards were considered at least as good as the Purdeys were and in some cases ranked higher at least as far as O/Us were concerned. The new Boss website offers their new double rifles upto 600 NE in O/U configuration and perhaps that is the competition that Purdey are trying to address with the renewed Woodward name. It should be interesting as I have some material (Christopher Austyn, I think) on the big bore double O/Us made by the British in the classical era including a most unusual Westley Richards in 425 WR and with a single trigger in O/U. While many experts would call it a combination doomed to failure, it apparently worked and worked well according to Austyn.

Best wishes, my friend and do keep us informed after your next visit to Purdey/Woodward.

Mehul.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

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4seventy
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Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #22654 - 25/12/04 01:16 PM

In reply to:

It should be interesting as I have some material (Christopher Austyn, I think) on the big bore double O/Us made by the British in the classical era



Mehul,
I would be interested to read that article.
Do you know where I could get a copy of it?
Thanks

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: 4seventy]
      #22674 - 26/12/04 07:15 AM

Hello Alan,

I just sent NitroX a PM about this. The book was either Austyn's "Classic Sporting Rifles" or "Modern Sporting Guns" - I am not sure as both books are in my collection in India. I shall try and have them shipped here along with the rest of my books on guns as soon as possible.

Please give me a little time to get it sent here. I'll rush things as much as I can,

Mehul Kamdar.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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4seventy
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Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #22676 - 26/12/04 09:36 AM

Mehul,
Thanks for that information.
In the meantime I will see if I can get those books from my supplier here in Aus.

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Morten
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Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #22727 - 28/12/04 12:06 AM

Halais Mehul.

Unfortunately. I don't think that I can do that now. This subject is so special that I never could sell it to a norwegian magazine which must be the reson to do it. this is complicated. but I would love to do it of the chance appear.

But you gayes says that the Purdey/Woodward is so expensive. But imagine what the price would be if the original Woodward had still exist?? Was't it Boddington that said that "if you wanted a rigby or Lancaster quarter the price, a H&H double the price, a Purdey double that again and if you wanted a Woodward: God help you."

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: 4seventy]
      #22774 - 29/12/04 05:50 AM

4seventy,

Barnes and Noble and Amazon have them in the US. They should be able to deliver in Australia and considering the weak dollar, the final price may turn out a real bargain.

Best wishes,



--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

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mehulkamdar
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Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: Morten]
      #22775 - 29/12/04 05:53 AM

Morten,

I learned that my editor contact is now in the process of finalising the articles for the 2006 annual. When you sent your piece in, the 2005 had been finalised. I shall try and find out what is happening - you too, should hear soon.

Best wishes,



--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22873 - 30/12/04 02:47 PM

Hey guys,

Over the Christmas holiday I spent some time researching the provenance of my Woodward double rifle. Here is my composition of what I found. My wife said it reads like shit. It's all true.


THE SLATE BARON’S WOODWARD

Born June 10, 1864 in Penrhyn, Caernarvonshire, Wales, Edward Sholto Douglas-Pennant was a scion of the Penrhyn slate dynasty. His father was the Hon. George Sholto Gordon Douglas-Pennant, 2nd Baron Penrhyn of Llandygai, who was to be made famous across the United Kingdom by the great strike of 1900-1903 at Penrhyn Quarry. His mother was Pamela Blanche Rushout. Penrhyn Castle lies near Bangor and Bethesda in north Wales.

He married Hon. Blanche Georgiana Fitzroy, daughter of Charles Fitzroy, 3rd Baron Southampton and Ismania Catherine Nugent, on December 6, 1887. Five children were born of the marriage.

In September, 1891, at the age of 27, the Woodward Automatic, #4457, caliber .450/.400 3¼” BPE (later to become NE) was delivered to him. I have found no account of his hunting experiences or other use of this rifle.




In 1903 the Hon. E.S. Douglas-Pennant appears on the roster of the Imperial Yeomanry, Buckinghamshire (Royal Bucks Hussars), headquartered at 23 Carlton House Terrace, London S.W. He is listed as Second in Command, with the rank of Major.

In 1906 he was listed as living in Whittlebury, at Sholebroke Lodge.

On March 10, 1907 the Hon. George Sholto Gordon Douglas-Pennant, 2nd Baron Penrhyn of Llandygai died. Thereupon, the Hon. Edward Sholto Douglas-Pennant succeeded to the estate and title, becoming 3rd Baron Penrhyn of Llandygai.

Life in Wales and good fortune for the Penrhyn Dynasty could never be the same. Accounts of the great quarry strike of 1900-1903 depict it as an epic struggle between the traditional owners of capital and the emerging trade unions. Lord Penrhyn (the 2nd Baron Penrhyn) stubbornly refused to deal with the workers’ committees. Bethesda and its environs suffered, as did the Welsh slate industry as a whole. Sickness and hunger plagued the idle workers. The standoff took its measure of Lord Penrhyn’s wealth, too; the quarry being closed three years. Compounding negative events followed: the Great War, the Great Depression, and the Second World War. The overall result was a precipitous decline in production of Welsh slate. Records show that Wales produced 364,000 tons of slate in 1912. By 1958 output was only one-seventh that amount, and it further declined to 22,000 tons by 1970.

The Hon E.S. Douglas-Pennant died on August 27, 1927 at age 63. His first son, Alan, preceded him in death, tragically killed in action in the Great War. The Penrhyn estate and title descended to his second son, the Hon. Hugh Napier Douglas-Pennant, 4th Baron Penrhyn of Llandygai.

The 4th Baron Penrhyn died June 26, 1949. Perhaps what then occurred is a reflection of the hardships of strikes, wars, and depression. Following his death, in 1952, Penrhyn Castle and a substantial portion of the Penrhyn Estate were ceded to the Treasury in lieu of death taxes, vesting in the National Trust.

Here are pictures of Penrhyn Castle:



Not bad digs, eh?

Have a happy new year,

Curl




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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #22876 - 30/12/04 03:26 PM

Aah so it may have received use against those damned 'idle' striking Welsh miners.

Reminds me of a joke.

A Russian Count was visiting the English countryside in the days before the Russian Revolution. He was invited to a spot of rough shooting by the local Lord as there were no driven shoots scheduled during his visit. While out shooting the English Lord suggested they split up and the Count take a couple of beaters one direction while he and the gamekeeper went another. Some time later they met up and the Russian count was alone. The English Lord having shot a jolly good number of game, including grouse, rabbit, hare, woodcock and his favourite pheasants. He politely asked the Count how he had done. "Just a couple of peasants" he replied. The English Lord corrected him, "You mean pheasants, old chap." To which the Count replied, "Nyet, I mean peasants. The lazy bastards wouldn't fetch my birds, but I got them with a quick right and left with my Woodward."


(PS I put Woodward in there just to keep it on topic )


PS Nice gun room above.

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Velopex
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: 470Rigby]
      #22885 - 30/12/04 07:36 PM

Were there any Woodward "The Automatic" SHOTGUNS produced ? Put simply – Yes …. and dare I say, the world would have been a poorer place if there were none of these superb wands to behold.!!! I personally know of 5 Woodward "The Automatic" smoothbores in Victoria, Australia ( all 12 bores curiously). Unfortunately and despite the best efforts by Nitrox to explain to me (Luddite extraordinaire !) how to attach a photo to this message, I am regretfully unable to include it here. But in the fine tradition of Woodward – it is delightfully finished with fine tight scroll work, cocking indicators, arcade fences etc etc. and was completed in 1896. Of the five mentioned above - the oldest Woodward "The Automatic" shotgun I have had the pleasure of knowing was built in 1881 and it can still be heard and seen today rolling over the odd piece of “Underground mutton” (rabbit). CptCrl….enjoy !

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Morten
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: Velopex]
      #22908 - 31/12/04 06:29 AM

I checked with the Purdey Price list of may 2002 today and there they are asking of 57000£ to build a Hammer ejector game gun.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: Velopex]
      #22935 - 31/12/04 09:31 AM

Velopex,

I hope some day to have the pleasure to lay hands and eyes on a Woodward "The Automatic" shotgun. What a nice addition that would be to a man's collection . . .

Have a great new year.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #23450 - 04/01/05 02:03 PM

Hello again to all,

I had my Woodward .400 NE to the range again this past Friday, December 30.

The load I tried was 83.0 grains Hodgdon 4831, Woodleigh 400 grain soft nose (.411"), and Federal 215 primer, all in HDS cases.

At 100 yards the barrel groups crossed approximately 5 inches, indicating the load should be reduced somewhat.

Would anyone be kind enough to share your loading experience with the .450/.400 3.25" NE? I will welcome any information you can offer.

Thanks,
CptCurl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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470Rigby
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #23456 - 04/01/05 03:44 PM

CptCrl,

Unfortunately, these old British rifles can produce different ballistics, due to sometimes considerable variations in bore size and effective freebore, which can be different in each barrel in doubles due to bore and throat erosion.

Accordingly, the "guide books" can sometimes only provide a starting point.

For example, Graeme Wright (Shooting the British Double Rifle) gives an 83-gr load with IMR 4831 as developing a MV of 2070 fps which should be right on the money! But I have used an 80-gr load with that powder that regulated beautifully but gave an extra 100 fps of MV (2170 fps)!

First things I would do are;

* Slug both bores for actual bore dimensions(once you know that, you could cast around for pills that may be a better match for your rifle?)

* Chronograph both barrels to see if they are producing MV's in the same range. If there is a discrepancy it could be due to different bore sizes and/or freebore, but knowing this will help with deciding on your next move if it is still x-firing.

If the problem persists, perhaps you could report back on the bore and chronograph readings? The issues involved are far too complex to canvass here, however you could read Chapter 10 in Graeme's book for an outine of some of the problems he has had to deal with in achieving regulation.

One final thought. It can't be just assumed that if you seat the bullet to the same overall cartridge length as original rounds that everything will be "hunky dory"! As a last resort, you should try different bullet seating depths.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23483 - 05/01/05 12:20 AM

Thanks, 470Rigby

A Cerrosafe cast of each chamber, including the first few inches of the bore is the first thing I do when starting to develop loads for a double rifle. It was from my casts that I concluded I should use the .411 bullets.

Graeme Wright's book is under my pillow each night. It is full of good practical advice.

From the result of the loads I tried I am inclined to try 80 to 81 grains of H4831. Since you have used 80 grains of IMR4831, let me ask - Do you feel the need for a filler with the lighter load? How far do you think a load of H4831 can be reduced in this cartridge, and at what point do you think a filler is necessary?

I seated the bullets to the cannelure with a slight roll crimp.

I have not chronographed the load.

It boils down to the fact that my basic question at this time is about the use of filler. What can you or anyone suggest?

Thanks,
CptCurl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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470Rigby
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #23539 - 06/01/05 12:09 AM

CptCrl

I have not experienced any problems with the 80-gr IMR 4831 load without using wads, but "hot" primers such as F-215 (or RWS 6507 if you are using Berdan cases) are "de rigueur". I would advise the use of wads if you went much below 80-gr, or used lighter charges of faster burning powders. In low load density loads, I use open-cell polyurethane wads, which have worked with powders such as with IMR 4350/4064 in .450/.400 x 31/4" NE and .400S.

Altenatively, you could try Kynamco's wads.

BTW - I always fully slug bores to arrive at the minimum bore diameter, since the rifled section just forward of the leade can be more affected by the ravages of erosion/corrosion.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: 470Rigby]
      #23545 - 06/01/05 01:06 AM

Thanks, 470Rigby.

There will be a delay in my load development for this cartridge. My sizing die is not quite right. It will not quite size the case fully, and I am experiencing tight cases with some pieces of brass. I'm sending it to RCBS this morning for adjustment.

It's so close that some of my new brass would chamber, but some was tight, even after going through the die full length. I think they just need to grind a bit off the bottom of the die.

My experience with wads has been Dacron used in my .500 BPE in nitro for black loads. I read Graeme Wright's recount of using foam, and I plan to try that too.

In any event, for my .400 NE I think all I need is to reduce my load of H4831 to 80 grains or so, and I will be there.

Thanks for your advice,
CptCurl

Jan 17, 2005 edited "H4350" to "H4831." My oversight when posting. Sorry!

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



Edited by CptCurl (18/01/05 02:53 PM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #25523 - 01/02/05 05:54 PM

Note from NitroX

I was requested to split off part of this thread onto a new discussion thread, titled "Double Rifle Values". One of the moderators felt it was a discussion deserving its own thread. The idea had merit and I hope everyone is OK with it.

These posts can be found at this web address:

Double Rifle Values - discussion thread



--------------------
John aka NitroX

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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: NitroX]
      #25530 - 01/02/05 11:16 PM

Good idea, NX.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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NE450No2
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: CptCurl]
      #25690 - 05/02/05 02:43 PM

In my 450/400 3 1/4" I use 81grains of IMR 4831 with 400 grain Woodleighs Softs.[Federal 215 primers, no filler] 83 grains shoots good in my rifle too but 82 grains does not.
My rifle also shoots good with 71.5 grains of RL15, Federal 215 primer and a foam filler.
After further tests I hope to switch totally to RL 15.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re:Woodward .450/400 3.25" & British proof marks [Re: NE450No2]
      #25726 - 06/02/05 12:18 AM

NE450No2,

Thanks for the loading info. I got my sizing die back from RCBS this week and I plan to try some loads this weekend. I think I'll try the lighter load of 4831 and also try the RL 15 load.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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