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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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controlled_feed
.300 member


Reged: 23/05/08
Posts: 227
Loc: NSW, Australia
CG Bales 16 Bore double rifle
      #212816 - 16/07/12 01:04 PM

Don't have any photos, but I'm any chasing information on a CG Bales, 16 bore muzzle loading double rifle, that more knowledgeable folk than me might be able to provide.

Thanks

CF

--------------------
I was born 100 years too late


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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26489
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...
Re: CG Bales 16 Bore double rifle [Re: controlled_feed]
      #212818 - 16/07/12 01:52 PM

Sorry - I have no knowledge of/on a CG Bales ML DR.

Once inportant information on the gun's dimensions are known, I can offer advice on feedling it.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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controlled_feed
.300 member


Reged: 23/05/08
Posts: 227
Loc: NSW, Australia
Re: CG Bales 16 Bore double rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #212819 - 16/07/12 02:13 PM

Thanks Daryl

At this point I'm not worried about feeding it. Maybe down the track (don't own it at the moment). Trying to ascertain value and estimate of age, I should have put that in the original post.

It's a hammer gun. Looks to be in good overall condition. Bore is obviously not mirror like, but entirely shootable.

CF

--------------------
I was born 100 years too late


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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: CG Bales 16 Bore double rifle [Re: controlled_feed]
      #212820 - 16/07/12 02:16 PM


I'd hazard a guess as to where and what year (ie England, Belgium etc etc) it was made and then have a look around to see what else is out there of similar vintage / style and go from there.


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Igorrock
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Re: CG Bales 16 Bore double rifle [Re: 500Nitro]
      #212850 - 17/07/12 12:04 AM

Seems that C.G. Bales worked in Durban-Pietermaritzburg, in the Sudafrikanische Republik circa 1869-1879.

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http://promaakari.wordpress.com/


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tinker
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Re: CG Bales 16 Bore double rifle [Re: Igorrock]
      #212851 - 17/07/12 12:13 AM

Without photos we're in 'wild guess' territory.
My guess, without more information is $4000-$14000USD








Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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DarylS
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Re: CG Bales 16 Bore double rifle [Re: Igorrock]
      #212856 - 17/07/12 12:28 AM

Quote:

Seems that C.G. Bales worked in Durban-Pietermaritzburg, in the Sudafrikanische Republik circa 1869-1879.




Ahh, South Africa.

If this info is correct for that rifle, I'd place the date prior to about 1875 - possibly one of his first year or first few years of making guns.

By 1860, maybe 'hunters' were starting equiping with Lefaucheux-type pinfire double rifles taking fixed ammo.

It was an era of rapidly developing ctg. guns. there are always holdouts, staying and ordering what they are familiar with, ie: ML's, but the 'modernization trends' were clearly hitting the hunting fields strongly by the early 1870's.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V


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mehulkamdar
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Reged: 09/01/04
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Re: CG Bales 16 Bore double rifle [Re: DarylS]
      #212871 - 17/07/12 05:17 AM

If you could get hold of Berkovitch's book "The Cape Gunsmith" (published by the Stellenbosch Museum in the 1970s) you might find information. The book was accessible on Google Books after a lawsuit by several publishing houses forced Google to withdraw it from the website. I seriously doubt that there are any copyrights, though, and, perhaps, one of our South African members with an entrepreneurial bent might want to bring out a limited coffee table edition.

Hope this helps.

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

Mehul Kamdar


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BillfromOregon
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Reged: 27/10/04
Posts: 254
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Re: CG Bales 16 Bore double rifle [Re: mehulkamdar]
      #212945 - 18/07/12 08:43 AM

CF: Sent you a PM with a link to a gusnmith pal in RSA.

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gunsports
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Re: CG Bales 16 Bore double rifle [Re: BillfromOregon]
      #212969 - 18/07/12 06:45 PM

Adam, I’ve been able to get the following information for you:

According to Barry Berkovitch’s book: The Cape Gunsmith, CG Bales was registered as a gun dealer and gunsmith in both Durban and Pietermaritzburg (Natal) during the periods: 1869 to 1879 (Durban) and 1873 to 1879 (Pietermaritzburg). In fact, the CG Bales Company were general dealers, who also happened to sell and fix guns.

I have looked around on the Internet and have found a few guns marked with the CG Bales name. One is a re built Snider; listed as a punt gun (an obvious error). But, looking at the picture, this gun can either be a military style Snider that was re stocked (either here or in England) and may or may not be; smooth bored. If the latter, then the gun was definitely intended for the native trade; for the authorities were loathe to sell them rifled arms. If rifled however, this would signify a rebuilt, surplus military arm released, and converted, for the civilian market.

Also of interest: There are guns marked: GW Bales, Ipswich and Colchester, a gunsmith (dealer?) from England. Could this be a relation?

Other records that I have been able to trace, was the embarkation list featuring one: CG Bales who embarked from Durban, on the RMS Natal, onward to Southampton on March 24, 1871. Perhaps Mr. Bales went ‘back home’ to visit kin, or buy some stock?

If I may digress for a little bit here:

Except for the war years (and after) of the twentieth century, South Africa never ‘made’ guns; insomuch that we manufactured locks, barrels and/or actions. We were a British Colony from 1815 onwards (Cape and Natal); and also the Boer Republics from 1901 onwards. Prior to this we were under the control of the Dutch East India (DEA) Company (Cape); which forbade the private ownership of and trade in guns; these being issued to deserving ‘Burgers’ (free citizens) from the DEA armories.

After the fall of the DEA Company in 1815, the first gunsmiths set up shop (ex DEA armory employees) at the Cape and they basically re built guns from parts scavenged from what was available locally. After the British took over in 1815, parts and components were imported from England from which guns were assembled and sold under the name of the gunsmith. After the abolition of slavery at the Cape, it became uneconomic to build guns locally; especially when these gunsmiths had to compete with the flood of cheap imports available from England.

What then happened was that these gunsmiths (and dealers) formed ‘sweetheart’ relationships with manufacturers and wholesalers in England and imported guns from there; but marked with their own trading name; like CG Bales. So we find that the iconic Botha gunsmith family at the Cape had a relationship with Greener of Birmingham and imported guns from this maker; but marked: JSF Botha; WC Botha; JSF Botha (II) and PJ Botha. Similarly, Hayton of Grahamstown had a deal with Wesley Richards, Colt and others; and imported these guns; often having two names; the original manufacturer and the re seller; stamped on the gun.

These guns we refer to here as “Traders”; meaning: Guns bought in the trade but marketed and sold under a different trading name. This tern is not meant in a derogatory manner at all for; some of the guns imported under these ‘trading’ names were of the best quality available – anywhere; while others were cheap guns meant for the trade; much like the trade guns imported into the America’s for sale to the indigenous population.

Notwithstanding, these gunsmiths and dealers continued to repair guns for the local trade; often using parts ordered in from England. In fact, I have a small collection of these parts that date back to the mid 1800’s; which I still use to repair/restore originals from that era. What was well a thriving industry here; was stock making; either from imported stock blanks, or from indigenous woods.

Back to your double:

I am about 100% sure that your gun is a ‘trader’. To establish its true identity, you need to pull the barrels and examine the proof marks on the underside. Most times, you’ll also find the initials of the original manufacturer (for instance: Greener’s guns are stamped with a ‘GG’ near the proof marks.) Other manufacturers stamped their full names on the guns. In addition, examine the locks. These would sometimes carry maker’s marks which can assist in identifying the gun.

However: The Birmingham gun trade was all about specialization. Small companies made components which they in turn, sold to big companies; who then assembled guns under their own trade names.

If you can establish the name of the original builder/supplier, then the value of the gun would be dependent on the quality associated with that maker’s name and off course, its condition, desirability etc.

What I can say is this: Double rifles were never of poor or ‘second’ quality; at least not those imported into South Africa during the nineteenth century. Some shotguns were but never; at least in my experience; double rifles.

Hope this helps.

Glen

--------------------
If it ain't a ball, it ain't a bullet ...


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BillfromOregon
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Reged: 27/10/04
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Re: CG Bales 16 Bore double rifle [Re: gunsports]
      #213069 - 20/07/12 08:15 AM

Glen to the rescue!

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