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NitroXAdministrator
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The Paradox - is there a modern place for it?
      #18436 - 25/08/04 11:09 PM

The Paradox is said to be making a comeback.

Is there a place for it in the 21st Century?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

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bonanza
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: NitroX]
      #18437 - 26/08/04 01:42 AM

what is a paradox?

--------------------


"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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unspellable
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: bonanza]
      #18440 - 26/08/04 03:38 AM

A Paradox is a choke rifled gun made by Holland & Holland. Other makers made them under various names, but today, the tendency is to refer to them all collectively as Paradox guns much as we tend to call all facial tissues a Kleenex. They can be a single or double barrel, but nearly all the ones I've known about were doubles.

The concept is to make a gauge sized barrel that is rifled in the last few inches where a shot gun would have its choke. hence the term "choke rifled". If a gauge sized rifle cartridge (Not a shotgun slug load, the gauge sized rifle cartridge is a rifle cartridge in every sense of the term.) is fired, the choke rifling imparts spin to the bullet as in a conventional rifle. If loaded with a shot cartridge the main part of the barrel is smooth bored and does not disturb the shot charge. The last few inches of rifling impart a relatively small disturbance to the shot charge so the pattern is decent. The idea is to have one gun that can be used as either a rifle or shot gun.

Of course some compromises have to be made and such guns tend to be more rifle than shotgun. One compromise is the stock, as a rifle wants more drop than a shotgun. You have the same compromise with a gun with two sets of barrels, one for a rile, the other for shot. Others peculiar to the rifled choke gun is that you are stuck with a fairly open shot pattern and the barrels are a bit heavy for a shotgun.

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mickey
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: bonanza]
      #18441 - 26/08/04 03:44 AM

A paradox is a rifle that has had the rifling bored out to within about 3-4 inches of the bore. It will usually shoot a shot charge at cylinder bore or abit tighter and shoot a large lead bullet with acceptable accuracy to 100 yards.

I think they are wonderful and I have two of them, oine being a 20 Bore Westley Faunetta. Great for Skeet. Also a beaut of a Chukar/Deer/Coyote rifle.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Peterb
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: bonanza]
      #18442 - 26/08/04 04:10 AM

John Kerry is a paradox, and there is no place for him in the 21st Century other than snuggled up at Teddy Kennedy's feet.

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500grains
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: NitroX]
      #18444 - 26/08/04 05:13 AM

Paradox guns were not too effective when they were used in the old days, and today they will be nothing more than a novelty. But a 4 bore is a novelty too, yet there are still a few 4 bores made these days.

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Marrakai
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: 500grains]
      #18460 - 26/08/04 01:29 PM

In the Northern Territory, centre-fire rifles are banned from the public hunting reserves during the waterfowl season, usually four months mid-August to mid-December. This happens to be most of the dry season, and the best time for hunting boars on these reserves. A Paradox gun is perfectly legal for boar year-round, and for geese and ducks during the season. Hence, it is probably the PERFECT gun for the 21st Century in my backyard!

As for "..not too effective", many seasoned hunters including Samuel Baker strongly recommended the inclusion of a Paradox gun in the ideal battery for India/Ceylon and the colonies.

--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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500grains
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: Marrakai]
      #18463 - 26/08/04 03:43 PM

Samuel Baker hunted before the advent of effective dangerous game calibers (i.e., 450 nitro express and later). Of course if you merely want to shoot pigs, it should work ok.

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Marrakai
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: 500grains]
      #18466 - 26/08/04 08:09 PM

You crack me up, 500grains! Samuel Baker did not 'merely shoot pigs' with his, either!

Permit me to quote Graeme Wright, who relates the experiences of many of us who HAVE hunted after the advent of 'effective' calibres (with your kind indulgence, of course):

"In Australia, paradox guns are regularly used and show just how powerful and effective they can be. Using solids these guns are capable of taking buffalo. Typically, at ranges of about 30 yards, a side shot at a buffalo's chest will give complete penetration with the projectile found against the hide on the other side."


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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: Marrakai]
      #18472 - 26/08/04 11:58 PM

Marrakai

So would these 'paradoxes' be using normal 'slug' or 'brennecke' type loads or special loads.

As I understand it the original paradoxes were often rifled only in the muzzle end of one barrel, the other being smoothbore. Or were both barrels usually part rifled?

Did they produce consistent patterns with shot? Or did the rifling cause inconsistent patterns and fliers?

Thanks in advance.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Chasseur
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: NitroX]
      #18473 - 27/08/04 12:19 AM

Yeah, I am not too sure about the 'not too effective' comment either, they were pretty popular arround 1900 used by many of the great hunters.

I would think they'd be great in shotgun only areas for deer hunting here in the states. Good to go for anyhing, though if they got popular it wouldn't be long before they were regulated and not allowed in shotgun only areas.



--------------------
In regards to action he should devote himself to hunting...
-Machiavelli



Edited by Chasseur (27/08/04 12:22 AM)

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unspellable
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: NitroX]
      #18474 - 27/08/04 12:35 AM

I've never heard of a gun with smooth bore in one barrel and a rifled choke in the other. If it's a SxS with a gauge sized smooth bore on one side and a caliber sized fully rifled barrel on the other, it's a cape gun.

The Paradox type guns were intended to use a brass case loaded with a true bullet sized to match the bore rather than a slug. In other words a gauge sized rifle cartridge. Not a shotgun cartridge loaded with a slug. Modern shotgun cartridges loaded with a slug will have an undersized slug to avoid trouble going through a choke. A 12 gauge slug load will typically have a 14 gauge sized slug. There are modern slug guns with a rifled choke and intened to take a shotgun cartridge loaded with a slug.

Where I'm at a gauge sized rifle or gauge sized rifled choke gun would be legal for deer while a regular centerfire rifle is not. (Never understood why. Never found any deer up in the tree tops. But I can legally hunt rabbits and squirrels with my 375 H&H.)

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mickey
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: Marrakai]
      #18482 - 27/08/04 04:49 AM

Marrakai

You must forgive 500grains ingnorance on anything that is not a Searcy or is older than he is.


My Faunetta shoots a 415 grain jacketed bullet at 1475 pps, the same as a 45-70. My 10 Bore Holland Paradox shoots an 870 grain bullet at 1425 fps and will penitrate a Buffalo end to end.

Anybody who has ever read anything about hunting in India will remember the high praise they recieved for everything up to and including Tigers.



10 bore, 12 bore and 20 Bore. note they came in both brass and paper cases. You must check to see which one yur rifle uses.



20 Bore Faunetta. 6.5 lbs





10 bore Paradox.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

Edited by mickey (27/08/04 04:59 AM)

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Peterb
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: mickey]
      #18485 - 27/08/04 07:11 AM

It is REALLY hard to add gold to a gun and improve its looks, but that 10 Bore could follow me home any day.

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Marrakai
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: NitroX]
      #18490 - 27/08/04 10:40 AM

NitroX:
Rifles chokes in both barrels, regulated like a double rifle.

Here's a pic of the projectiles from my mold:






Here's the original patent drawing for the rifled choke:






Geez Mickey, that 10-bore is a beauty. Usually only see pictures like that in books....



--------------------
Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au

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500grains
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: mickey]
      #18492 - 27/08/04 11:55 AM

"In Australia, paradox guns are regularly used and show just how powerful and effective they can be. Using solids these guns are capable of taking buffalo. Typically, at ranges of about 30 yards, a side shot at a buffalo's chest will give complete penetration with the projectile found against the hide on the other side."

Woweee! It actually penetrated to the hide on the opposite side. Heck, that is almost as good as a 45-70. But we can't expect any more since it is just a shotgun slug.

So why haven't any paradox guns been made for over 100 years? Because they were very ineffective compared to the modern (450 NE and later) DG rounds. If you read some of the older works on DG hunting in AFrica, you will read of the ineffectiveness of paradox guns, particularly on elephant, but on other stuff too.

Does anyone know how many professional hunters in Africa use paradox guns to back up their clients?

For some reason there is a mentality that thinks old stuff is better just because it is old. I think old stuff is better if it performs better. If it perfoms worse than more modern stuff, then it is worse.

So I guess Mickey drives a Model T Ford because old stuff is better. Perhaps he can show us either a photo of a recovered bullet or the wound channel (or at least exit hole) from the 10 bore slug that penetrated a buffalo end to end. I would be interested in those photos - not saying it didn't happen, just asking for more detail.

Waiting for a photo...

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seroadglide
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: Marrakai]
      #18495 - 27/08/04 12:11 PM

I have read of these Paradox guns in old digests, etc.

I was wondering about the loaded shell you picture with one of your bullets beside it.
-By what mechanical means does the die produce such a consistent, deep crimp?

-I can make out what appears to be lubricant. Is it wax or another, more "modern" type lubricant?

Interesting thread and fine guns too.

Douglas R. Mays

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AdamTayler
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: mickey]
      #18505 - 27/08/04 04:28 PM

Can you buy solid brass casings and reload? Beautiful firearm, the scroll work reminds me of Ukrainian Easter eggs.

--------------------
It's the journey, not the destination.

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: 500grains]
      #18516 - 27/08/04 11:00 PM

Well 500grains you have the bull by the horns or maybe the balls again.
Rifled shotguns are still being manufactured today in various configurations including :-single barrels,doubles,pumps,auto's and bolt action single barrels.
I own a paradox and use it regularly and I'm always on the lookout for another to add to my collection of using firearms.

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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ALAN_MCKENZIE
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: 500grains]
      #18518 - 27/08/04 11:07 PM

I might also add that there are more cartridges loaded with solid slugs on the market now than any time I can remember in the last 40 years.
Doesent that tell you something 500 grns............

--------------------
"Dogs always bark at their master"
Sir Seretse Khama.25th June 1949

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500grains
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: ALAN_MCKENZIE]
      #18524 - 28/08/04 12:51 AM

Gosh Alan, I guess you got me. As I said, paradox guns are pretty good for pigs. So are shotgun slugs. But not for the big stuff like elephant, hippo, rhino and cape buffalo.

How many elephant have you shot with your rifled shotguns?

Any pics?

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Photog
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: 500grains]
      #18529 - 28/08/04 05:57 AM

Gosh 500grains,
Who was talking about elephant, hippo, rhino, etc. Or is that all you hunt?
I think the question was "is there a modern place for it", is there alot of rhino hunting going on? I think most of us would love to bag the "Big Five" but how many of us will get to.
I think most of us hunt a little closer to home every year rather than the once in a lifetime hunt. In the U.S. that means Deer, Elk, Moose, Hog, Bear. Deer being the most common prey, and in states like Ohio, Iowa, Wisconsin, Southern Michigan, you have to use a shotgun. I would love a Paradox, or a 12 bore rifle, either would be perfect for my needs.

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mickey
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: Photog]
      #18548 - 28/08/04 11:22 AM

In reply to:

Poster: 500grains
Subject: Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it?

Gosh Alan, I guess you got me. As I said, paradox guns are pretty good for pigs. So are shotgun slugs. But not for the big stuff like elephant, hippo, rhino and cape buffalo.

How many elephant have you shot with your rifled shotguns?

Any pics?




5oograins

We all know that a Paradox is not for Pachyderms, neither is a .22LR or a 30-06. Would you say they have no modern place left? A Paradox gives the hunter an option of a shotgun or a rifle in one weapon. Not many Quail are shot with a 300RUM and not many Elk are shot with a 12 Gauge. With a Paradox you can do both, with alternating shots from the same weapon. That is why it is a Paradox.



--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

Edited by mickey (28/08/04 11:23 AM)

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: mickey]
      #18551 - 28/08/04 12:35 PM

To anyone - would there be a problem shooting shot through the rifling and then a bullet? Can shot damage rifling?



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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mickey
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Re: The Paradox - is there a modern place for it? [Re: NitroX]
      #18562 - 28/08/04 02:21 PM

Nitro

Lead shot does not hurt. It shoots like an improved cylinder bore.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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