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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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BB416
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: 500Nitro]
      #238836 - 06/12/13 08:19 PM

I wished I had found this thread 2 months ago as I have purchased a Sabatti in 450/400 and only had it for three weeks (the usual paper work PTA etc.). Have put a few rounds through it, both factory and reloads and I am having trouble getting it to print both barrels on an A4 page at 25 meters. The crowns seem to be good , certainly nothing like the photos in this thread, however the "V" on the rear site isn't cut in the centre and hasn't been finished properly and has a large file mark on one side. I am hoping that with a little more time spent reloading and developing loads, I can get this thing to shot somewhere on the same page. Having had this experience I am wondering if I should have bought something else. This is my first double, it looks good just need to get it to shoot!!

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: BB416]
      #238841 - 06/12/13 08:24 PM

BB

Are you shooting the rifle correctly? ie don't rest it on the bags on a rest, but hold the rifle in your hands, with the butt off the rest, and the front hand only resting on a bag, not the actual rifle?

You may know this already, but just in case you don't. The regulation impact of a double rifle will be effected if the rifle is rested directly on a rest.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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500Nitro
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: NitroX]
      #238845 - 06/12/13 08:36 PM


BB

Regardless of the rear sight, if you have the same sight picture for both shots and as above, you are shooting it correctly, it will still put both bullets where it is regulated.

So, don't worry on where they shoot on a page at this stage,
get them shooting together.

Do you have a copy of Graeme Wrights book, shooting the British Double Rifle ? If not, suggest you get a copy.


Might also be worth throwing the odd target up here
and loads and velocities. Plenty of people like NitroX,
Cpt Curl et al will be able to give good advice.


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BB416
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: NitroX]
      #238847 - 06/12/13 08:44 PM

Have tried both shooting off sticks and offhand and doesn't seem to make any difference to the results. I have shot factory Hornady loads which the DR was supposed to be regulated with and doesn't come close. I have been using Woodliegh 400 grain softs in front of 75 grains of 2209 for reloads. I can get the right barrel to almost put a single hole for a three shot group at 25 meters but the left seems to be about 2 inches apart vertically and doesn't group the three shots at all. These two groups are about 6 inch apart ( left to right) and about 4inches apart vertically. If anyone can help with other loads or suggestions on how to fix these problems , I am all ears

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500Nitro
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: BB416]
      #238848 - 06/12/13 08:54 PM



Where did you buy the gun ?


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BB416
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: 500Nitro]
      #238849 - 06/12/13 08:55 PM

500
Thanks for the advice , have a copy of Graeme's book and have read it from cover to cover but will go back and read it again as it seems to be the "bible" for DR's. Would love to post photo's, but with this pathetic satellite internet system we have I can 't send any, so I will try to explain the results I get in writing or by brail which ever is the more descriptive


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BB416
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: BB416]
      #238850 - 06/12/13 08:59 PM

Had the pleasure of purchasing it at Elks Hunting and Fishing. Seem to be a great bunch of blokes to deal with although having said that this is the first firearm that I have bought from them

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500Nitro
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: BB416]
      #238879 - 06/12/13 11:30 PM


BB

If your shots are 6 inches apart, I think you need to speed up your load to get them to "come together".

Vertical is harder to fix.


Remember, only change ONE thing in a load at any time
otherwise you don't know what caused the change.


If you get them closer, I might suggest 4 or 6 shots
with the Seating depth changed, just to see if it makes
a difference.


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BB416
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: 500Nitro]
      #239146 - 12/12/13 12:02 AM

Thanks 500, will try as you suggest "one thing at a time" and will let you know how it goes

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joelblack
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: BB416]
      #239749 - 25/12/13 05:51 AM

I've had this 45/70 Sabatti for over a year. It is properly regulated and a pleasure to shoot. I have a number of British doubles including an H&H, Greener, Reilly, Hollis, etc and this inexpensive double shoots as well as they do. At $2500 it was an amazing bargain.





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doubleriflejack
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: hunter_angler]
      #239789 - 27/12/13 06:02 AM

Alberta: "the opening lever would only swing to about center when the bbls were off then stop. This meant that as the gun wore in to center I could not be sure the lugs were being engaged all the way, it felt like there was something holding the lever/lugs from traveling fully forwards. I did not like this so I took the action apart and found that there was a bit of metal on the lever stop I needed to remove to get the lugs to have their full travel. I did this and now the lever will travel to the left when the bbls are removed"
_________________________________

I have four Sabatti double rifles, deluxe versions, .450.400, and up in caliber; no .45-70 or 9.3 of the base model. I did quite a lot of custom work on all of mine, including what Alberta mentions above, which I think is a common minor problem with Sabatti doubles. As Alberta mentions, the top lever, with no barrels attached to rifle, should sit slightly left of center, which all of mine now do, as does Alberta's. Such an "adjustment" is not essential, but certainly makes a good sound double rifle even better. All of mine show good regulation; none of them have any muzzle rifling grinding/filing issues, such as we all have seen with SOME, not all, of the early ones imported. When Sabatti rifles were first imported by the USA Florida importer, for Cabelas stores, they started out with serial numbers being stamped under top levers; that was later changed to serial numbers with a "CAB" prefix (meaning Cabelas), followed by the serial number, starting with single or double digits; but NOT stamped under top lever; now the latest Sabatti serial numbers are over 900, so I am quite sure that somewhat slightly over 1000 were imported into America alone. Further, I am reasonably sure that the muzzle rifling grinding was done very early on with SOME of the doubles; not all of the early ones. Based on the rather limited number of Sabatti rifles I have shot, and watched being shot, I would say that a minority of them may have questionable regulation that could be improved, but the majority of them seem to be reasonably to well regulated. No other mechanical problems I am aware of, have come to light to any extent.


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doubleriflejack
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: davidindallas]
      #239790 - 27/12/13 06:36 AM

500Nitro: "So why are Sabatti still persisting with still stuffing around doing things "on the cheap" so to speak."
_______________________________

I have seen no proof that Sabatti, the Italian gun maker, has done what is alleged by 500Nitro, after the initial profound error they made when they did the muzzle rifling grinding/filing (which they now freely admit they did, in error; saying they would never do it again), nor any proof that Cabelas has done it either, but I have seen evidence that the Florida importer, EAA, has done Sabatti things "on the cheap, so to speak," perhaps always, when they attempted to make adjustments for customer guns purchased. If you look carefully at the fscts, you will see that EAA was responsible for such adjustments; not the Italian factory, but a lot of people jump to conclusions and blame the maker for everything. I seriously doubt if the Italian factory has seen any returned rifles; EAA "took care" of them all, I am sure, as importer for all Cabelas Sabatti rifle.


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doubleriflejack
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #239791 - 27/12/13 07:12 AM

Ken Owen, the double rifle maker, has now done some re-regulation of some Sabatti double rifles, so he may be willing to do such work for customers who own Sabatti rifles.

JJ Perdeau, of Champlin's firearms, OK, told me that he twice tried to re-regulate Sabatti rifles, and failed, because he thought they did not have a mid point regulation wedge. JJ has done an excellent job of re-regulating many double rifles for customers. I assume that he did not want to take the time to make mid point regulation wedges, install them, etc., and that is reason why he will not take on such work with the Sabatti doubles.

I personally have re-regulated two Sabatti double rifles for close friends, and found that JJ was correct, of course, in that they DO NOT have a mid point regulation wedge. However, most vintage double rifles, especially German ones I am most familiar with, also have no mid point regulation wedge, and are assembled with same materials, and methods as Sabatti. I simply made, from scratch, mid point regulation wedges, installed them, and regulated them, as I have done on conversions of double shotguns to double rifles, having learned the process from gunsmithing class given by W. Ellis Brown, who later wrote his book on converting double rifles to double shotguns, which includes written details on regulation process, of course. I am retired, and not interested in doing such work for customers.


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aromakr
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #239795 - 27/12/13 11:01 AM

I believe that Doubleriflejack is correct. When I sent my first rifle in for repairs, I was told EAA didn't have an export license which would be needed to send the rifle to Italy. Don't know if that is true, but is what I was told, and they did a crappy job on it.
Bob


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doubleriflejack
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: aromakr]
      #239809 - 28/12/13 06:11 AM

aromakr: "When I sent my first rifle in for repairs, I was told EAA didn't have an export license which would be needed to send the rifle to Italy. Don't know if that is true, but is what I was told, and THEY DID A CRAPPY JOB ON IT."
______________________________________

Based on my discussions with EAA's in house so-called "gunsmith," and my inspection of work they have done on guns sent to them (not mine), I fully agree with aromakr. They should be ashamed of themselves, and should stay away from doing gun work, or they should hire a real smith and do it right, and they should concentrate wholly on importing guns, since that is their line of work anyway. I think that Cabelas should have worked toward whatever it took to get their importing license (if that was possible?), hired a good gunsmith at each of their stores, and done all the Sabatti importing on their own. Had they done this, stayed away from EAA, they and all their customers would have been much better off; the Sabatti name would be much better than it has now become too.


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FuzzBazz
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #244922 - 03/04/14 03:35 PM

About to pay full odds for one of these in 500NE for big game rifle club shooting. I can't physically inspect the rifle.

Cabelas assures me that the rifling hasn't been adulterated "as far as (they) could tell".

My other concern is the grain of the stock. It seems to flow up into the tang rather than through the grip.

Any thoughts?

<img src="http://i.imgur.com/KdCEGzU.jpg">


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FuzzBazz
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: FuzzBazz]
      #244923 - 03/04/14 03:37 PM



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: FuzzBazz]
      #244924 - 03/04/14 03:54 PM

FuzzBazz

Re muzzle grinding I would get someone to inspect it for you. Their answer is an opinion only, not a statement of fact.

Maybe someone here could help you if you tell where it is? Up to you.


The grain in the bottom half appears to flow through OK, but the top half doesn't. Someone with more stock and grain knowledge can comment if they think it is adequate.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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FuzzBazz
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: NitroX]
      #244926 - 03/04/14 04:14 PM

The rifle is at Cabelas in Buda, Texas. Do you know of any members nearby?

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Ash
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #244939 - 03/04/14 07:07 PM

Quote:

I personally have re-regulated two Sabatti double rifles for close friends, and found that JJ was correct, of course, in that they DO NOT have a mid point regulation wedge. However, most vintage double rifles, especially German ones I am most familiar with, also have no mid point regulation wedge, and are assembled with same materials, and methods as Sabatti. I simply made, from scratch, mid point regulation wedges, installed them, and regulated them, as I have done on conversions of double shotguns to double rifles, having learned the process from gunsmithing class given by W. Ellis Brown, later wrote his book on converting double rifles to double shotguns , which includes written details on regulation process, of course. I am retired, and not interested in doing such work for customers.




Eegads! That sounds expensive!

:P

--------------------
.


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NONAGONAGIN
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: Ash]
      #244958 - 04/04/14 02:18 AM

I need answers...not repeats of what has been posted on all the double rifle forums I've been to about the "Sordid Sabatti Saga".

I'm a newbie to double rifles but, NOT to this shooting game(been at it 60 odd years). I don't even have a DR yet, just single/double/pump/auto shotguns shooting slugs(poor men's double rifles). I'm looking into buying a double rifle so I checked out all the brands new/used in the price range up to $20K.

Sabatti looked good because of the price and I won't use it for anything other than sage squirrels and paper.


I'm simple...I was a dirt spread mechanic/heavy duty welder...I've bent and twisted a lot of metal and a lot of college classes on metallurgy and attendant subjects and I build my own rifles.

I've read all the roundy-roundy over metal removal at the muzzle on some of the Sabatti's and watched the Sabatti video on there regulation, looked at the muzzles on some doubles that have some kind of regulating device on one barrel along with the regulating wedge.

I want a rifle that is regulated...NO MATTER HOW IT'S DONE...as long as the regulation doesn't change over time, so I can't quite understand all the jumping up and down over metal removal at the muzzle...it doesn't matter to me whether I pay 5 large or 500 large for the shooter, the "esthetics", and I don't go around looking down the muzzle of deadly weapons.


Someone tell me the difference between BENDING a barrel and metal removal as long as it STAYS POINTED IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION. I can't see any difference in the different procedures...BOTH are mechanical means to "straighten" a barrel or to get the bullet to go a certain way.

I fully understand about regulating through tailoring the load...I have a couple of large cal rifle with solid fixed sight regulated to a 50-100 yd zero.

Thanks for any insights that haven't already been wrung out many times over.


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hunter_angler
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
      #244967 - 04/04/14 05:42 AM

I am far from being expert on this subject but...

besides the fact that muzzle grinding is not the manner in which a purist wants his double rifle regulated, I believe independent reviews quoted in this forum showed/claimed that the Sabattis so doctored, in order to expedite shipment and sale, would only shoot with any accuracy the one brand of ammunition with which they were originally test fired at the factory. Although doubles are normally regulated with one make of ammunition, other brands of cartridges with standard loads in the same caliber will normally also function adequately. In other words if the rifling was dremeled to cause say Hornady .500 NE loads to group better, if Norma, Kynoch or A- Square ammo were substituted the results would be far less satisfactory. When barrels are properly regulated this sort of variance is not typically experienced.

All of that being said, if it helps I own a Sabatti in .470 NE with rifling that has not been visibly altered and I am very happy with it, except that the rifle is a bit light for caliber and hits hard on both ends. I am one of those that believes that if you do your homework in examining the Sabattis when purchasing, you can get a lot of gun for your money. Although I do not believe the price justifies the deliberate tampering with the muzzles, I wouldn't expect a double that retails for $5000 or so new to meet every standard of guns costing 2, 3 or more times as much. I have heard/read that Merkels costing $10K plus have a common problem with the weights/recoil reducers in the stocks coming loose from recoil and then rattling until repaired. Does this make the gun cheaply made relative to a $100K Purdey?

--------------------
old school rimmy


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doubleriflejack
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: NONAGONAGIN]
      #244970 - 04/04/14 05:57 AM

Seems that guys who happen to own Sabatti double rifles that are not regulated well, and/or ones that have the horrid muzzle rifling grinding most everyone is now very familiar with, and fears, now have opportunity to have them re-regulated properly, professionally. The ones that do have the morbid muzzle rifling grinding, would have the barrels cut back about 1/2 inch, to get rid of the side grinding in muzzles, prior to their being re-regulated. This work is now being done by a skilled gun worker, Aaron Little, who works with Bailey Bradshaw, gunmaker, of Texas. Aaron Little, however, is doing this Sabatti re-regulation work on his own time; not connected with Bradshaw. Aaron charges $500. for the re-regulation, and $250. for polish and slow rust blue, if needed, and time involved in making new regulation wedge, cutting back muzzle ground barrels, etc., @ $45.00/hour. Aaron can be contacted via email: Michael08TDK@yahoo.com.

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doubleriflejack
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #244980 - 04/04/14 06:53 AM

hunter angler: "besides the fact that muzzle grinding is not the manner in which a purist wants his double rifle regulated, I believe independent reviews quoted in this forum showed/claimed that the Sabattis so doctored, in order to expedite shipment and sale, would only shoot with any accuracy the one brand of ammunition with which they were originally test fired at the factory. Although doubles are normally regulated with one make of ammunition, other brands of cartridges with standard loads in the same caliber will normally also function adequately. In other words if the rifling was dremeled to cause say Hornady .500 NE loads to group better, if Norma, Kynoch or A- Square ammo were substituted the results would be far less satisfactory. When barrels are properly regulated this sort of variance is not typically experienced."
_______________________________________
All double rifles, all makes, vintage and modern, are (were) regulated by the gun makers with a specific brand of ammunition, using a specific given bullet weight. A rifle, when made, is regulated for specific ammunition; later ammunition is not regulated for a rifle, though sometimes different ammunition is tried, to see how a given rifle will handle that ammunition. A double rifle, when made, uses one or two regulation wedges, to slightly bend the barrels, so that both barrels are "regulated" to shoot left/right bullets PARALLEL; the wedges are soldered in place at that point. Eventually, the top and bottom ribs are also soldered in place. A properly regulated double rifle will always shoot left/right shots parallel; they will never cross fire at any range. For big bore rifles, this means that they will shoot parallel left/right with a spread of about 3 inches or less (that is the standard). Therefor,if a double rifle is regulated at 50 yards (common range for big bores), or at say 75 yards (common on medium bores), that simply means thatis the range where the checking took place; it certainly does not mean, as some guys think, that the right/left shots cross at that range. A major factor in this regulation process, in using one specific brand of ammunition, is the bullet profile, because if a double is initially regulated with bullets of a specific profile, and later on a different brand of ammunition is tried, and they have a different bullet profile, often they will not regulate well. Bullet weight, of course, is important too, so if a rifle is regulated with 480 grain bullets, the rifle may or may not regulate well with bullets of a somewhat different weight---the more distance there is between the weight of original regulation bullet weight and another bullet weight, the less likely it is that it will regulate well in that given rifle. The statement "When barrels are properly regulated this sort of variance is not typically experienced." This statement is not exactly true. Again, factors causing variation in regulation results would include bullet profile, bullet weight, bullet velocity; if one or more of these were not identical to original ones used during regulation, variation in results will be seen. However, each rifle is different from all other rifles of same caliber/make; some will more readily "accept" variations in these factors, and shoot well, while some rifles will not. Again, a double rifle is regulated for a specific load; that is the load that needs to be used for the rest of the life of that rifle, for best regulation. Trying different loads, different bullet profiles, different bullet weights, different velocities, WITHIN REASON, SO THAT NORMAL BREECH PRESSURE FOR THAT RIFLE ISN'T EXCEEDED, may or may not shoot reasonably well.
When a double rifle is regulated correctly, it will retain that regulation for the normal life of the rifle; will not change, unless for some reason, the regulation wedge solder joints fail for some reason. I have many vintage double rifles in my collection, that are 100 years old and older, that are still regulated well, same as they were when made.
When Sabatti found that, after normal regulation, some of their rifles were not shooting within reasonable regulation standards, one or more regulators at Sabatti chose a shortcut method, to not unsolder the wedge, but, instead, to file or grind out some of the rifling at the muzzles, to, thereby, "steer" the bullets slightly one way or another, bringing such a rifle more into regulation. At one point, I saw a video where one of the owners of Sabatti, claimed that they were under a lot of pressure to fill very large orders for double rifles; they hired more production workers; some of the regulators were doing this muzzle grinding to rush them through to completion, without management aware of it, until it was too late, and they were shipped out. Sabatti said that they had corrected that problem by hiring more responsible regulators. Anyway, this is a horrid way to go about double rifle regulation; never done by anyone with an ounce of good sense; is never done by well trained, well experienced double rifle regulators. I think that Sabatti, dealing with huge orders that came to them quickly, were overwhelmed, resorted to hiring irresponsible people who took shortcuts, and we saw the results. Sabatti, it seems, now regrets that, but it is too late.


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NONAGONAGIN
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Re: Sabatti Double Rifles, Brickbats & Bouquets [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #244984 - 04/04/14 07:15 AM

I suppose your right about the Dremel part. I can see holes in all the arguments. I have a whole lot of questions about this, but I think they would only inflame an already hot subject if I ask them. It boils down to esthetics and "this isn't the way to do it" I think.

There are several 450-400's available "fixed" by Ken Owen and a couple of 45-70's on various auctions sites, but I want a 470 or 500 NE.

I can see a whole bunch of angst over this, but, again, to my way of thinking if the gun can be regulated by bending or Dremel or both that's what I'm interested in and regulated for one or two bullets seems to be the norm anyway.

Sabatti made a wrong decision over economics caused by in part by Cabela or so it seems. If this is the case then Cabela AND Sabatti should make it good and fix if for no charge INCLUDING shipping.

You buy a double for a specific purpose in the large cals and don't do a lot of messing about with various bullets/reloads, there is no need. I think this is true of most calibers. I have a ton of rifles and do test several bullet brands and weights until I hit the right combo then leave it alone. No need to use up components and wear out the throat.

Thanks for the input.


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