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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles
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GG375
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Reged: 27/02/04
Posts: 347
Loc: Brisbane
Re tightening a double.
      #158317 - 06/04/10 01:25 PM


Guys

Hypothetically, if you had to have a double put back on face using the method of TIG welding the hook and re machining it, who, in Australia would you use?

Cheers.

GG

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: GG375]
      #158319 - 06/04/10 01:28 PM


Not sure Tig is the only way to go, a shim can be inserted
or the pin replaced depending on who made the double.

Bill Swann - Melbourne I think he uses shims
Alex Beer - Tas
Vic Pedersen - Darwin

Possibly Bob de Vries - Kudu Services - Melbourne

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doubleriflejack
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Reged: 11/11/07
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: GG375]
      #158363 - 07/04/10 12:22 AM

You might be able to find someone who is an excellent TIG welder who can add the needed metal, and can machine it down evenly to fit well, but personally I have never found anyone able to do the job to my satisfaction, and I have seen a lot of skilled guys try (I do a lot of TIG welding and machine work, using milling machine/lathe, etc. too, and I can't do it to my own satisfaction either). The main problem I have found, is that it is extremely difficult to add the necessary metal AND to machine it square all the way across the hook, so that it bears equally, evenly, across the hinge pin surface. If not done well, it will wear way more quickly than ever before. On the other hand, I have found it way easier to install an oversized pin to take up the wear (on some doubles that have an easily changed pin), or to dovetail in a shim to the hook, a shim that may be easily replaced any time in the future as well (I use methods for this, as explained by W. Ellis Brown in his book, Building Double Rifles on Shotgun Actions, a method borrowed, I think, from a great English gunsmith).
This method was developed to take up wear on British doubles that have a hinge "pin" that is machined as a part of the overall action body, so isn't really a pin at all, making it impossible to change the hinge pin unless one drills out the area that functions as a "pin," and installs a whole new one.

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: doubleriflejack]
      #158376 - 07/04/10 03:04 AM

Respectfully, and I know that this is like telling you to buy a steak dimmer when you asked about pork chops....

Use feeler gauges to measure how much she is off face then add .001" to that measurement. Look in the yellow pages for a company doing Industrial HARD CHROME PLATING.

Take the barrels to them and ask them to mask off everything apart from the hook. Then tell them how many thou you need on it. They will put it in the tank ( a body heat level process) and plate on that amount (they can tell thickness by time) Then you have to just let her back in that spare thou with the use of round or half round diamond file, It must be diamond nothing else will touch the chrome not even stones.

It is completely non destructive and controllable and permanent. Done correctly it is impossible to see.

Regards.

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Francis
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Reged: 10/12/09
Posts: 42
Loc: Sedgwick, Victoria, Australia
Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: Bramble]
      #158494 - 08/04/10 11:49 AM

I have looked into tightening shotguns in this way and the electroplater said that it would set up rust in the barrels due to being submersed in the liquid. Has anyone tried the method in Australia in either a rifle or shotgun? I have heard of a method of plating that does not require submersion but once again a little difficult to find the right people to ask. Any help appreciated.

Regards,

--------------------
If some is good, more is better.

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.
Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: Francis]
      #158520 - 08/04/10 07:39 PM

Its a home kit, but i think the principle apply on industrial aplications. plating

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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Bramble
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: Francis]
      #158522 - 08/04/10 07:47 PM

It does not set up rust anywhere, because the rest of the gun is masked off with wax, If the bore was not wax masked then it would be plated as well wouldn't it, rust would be the least of the worries !! Once the leads are attached the whole gun is a conductor.

So whatever plater you spoke to is an idiot.

This was not a theoretical response. We do exactly this, several times a year for clients, forum members amongst them.

It is by far the least damaging and most cosmetically invisible tightening job.

Regards

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9dot3x74R
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Reged: 11/02/10
Posts: 97
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: Bramble]
      #158524 - 08/04/10 08:27 PM

This sounds very interesting.... I have a couple of old shotguns that would benefit from this. Is there anything I need to tell the plater, other than the desired thickness?

--------------------
________________________________________________________________________________________________________
It arrived !!!


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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: Bramble]
      #158529 - 08/04/10 10:59 PM

Quote:



So whatever plater you spoke to is an idiot.






That statement applies to all the platers i have spoken to (not firearms related), a fume related thing perhaps.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
Posts: 7244
Loc: Victoria, Australia
Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: 450_366]
      #158531 - 08/04/10 11:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:



So whatever plater you spoke to is an idiot.






That statement applies to all the platers i have spoken to (not firearms related), a fume related thing perhaps.





450

I think Bramble was referring to Francis's post, not yours.

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #158533 - 08/04/10 11:30 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:



So whatever plater you spoke to is an idiot.






That statement applies to all the platers i have spoken to (not firearms related), a fume related thing perhaps.





450

I think Bramble was referring to Francis's post, not yours.



Yeah i got it, i was refering to the people involved in plating that i have spoken to thru the years. What i ment was that Francis's plater wasnt so stupid if compared to the ones i spoke to.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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500Nitro
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Reged: 06/01/03
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: 450_366]
      #158536 - 08/04/10 11:55 PM


Francis

Not many people capable here of doing this stuff well and
trying to find who to talk to, I could think of maybe 5 in Aus.


Remember that they blue or brown gun barrels via immersion
and the bores don't turn out blue or brown so can't be that difficult to seal the barrels.

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada
Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #158551 - 09/04/10 02:29 AM

Bramble is spot on, right as rain.
The thing's masked properly and the job's done properly or it's not.
The process is capable of the work, not every technician is capable of doing it right.





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Bramble
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: 9dot3x74R]
      #158554 - 09/04/10 03:56 AM

Quote:

This sounds very interesting.... I have a couple of old shotguns that would benefit from this. Is there anything I need to tell the plater, other than the desired thickness?



If the plating Company you are dealing with are on the ball then no. Just to take great care in the masking.

It pays to make a dummy screw to replace the one that holds the ejectors in. This is for 2 reasons. First it stops the internal thread from being plated and built up. Second you leave it very long and they clamp the electrode there so no other part of the barrels need to be un masked. After use throw it away or keep it for the next one.

This is a common practice done in industry all the time to restore turbine shafts, bearing shafts etc. Imagine what the cost would be on say a hydro electric turbine , if you had to replace the entire shaft for wear, rather than plate it and regrind to dimension. A £ 50,000.00 shaft can be repaired for £ 1000.00 of plating and grinding. It is done on Aero engines and helicopter jet turbine shafts.
Bear in mind that when plating lugs then you always get some extra material deposited on the external edges, this is due to the way that electrical current flows. No problem, but the "feathers" look terrible when you first get it back, but they are excess anyway and you dress them off.

Regards

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500Nitro
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: Bramble]
      #158557 - 09/04/10 04:13 AM


Bramble

Yes, I have heard of that screw being used.

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alexbeer
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Reged: 10/04/08
Posts: 389
Loc: Tasmania, Australia
Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: Bramble]
      #158591 - 09/04/10 03:13 PM

Spot-on Bramble,

Many years ago (like about 20) I had a Cogswell & Harrison double in 475NE (3-1/4" straight) which I bought relatively cheap because it was off the face. We had a good Industrial Hard Chrome Plating business not far from where I worked, so that was where I took it. They hadn't done any firearm work before, but after a little discussion, we ended up doing exactly as Bramble has described. I fitted it back with diamond files and that rifle was as good as gold, tight as a drum. I used it considerably for quite some years and then foolishly sold it. An amazingly accurate double rifle that one was too.

If one has access to a GOOD Industrial Hard Chrome Plating business, I would suggest this procedure.

Best

Alex

alexbeer.com

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Francis
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Reged: 10/12/09
Posts: 42
Loc: Sedgwick, Victoria, Australia
Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: 500Nitro]
      #158592 - 09/04/10 03:28 PM

Home plating kits are available here, electroless nickle, were the parts to be plated are just submerged with out needing to be attached to an anode. Thought I would get a kit and try on an old set of shotgun barrels. As I stated earlier - hard to find the right people to talk too. I think the local guy would just be doing parts for car restorers etc and the mere mention of "guns" is off putting. I know very little about the process. When masking with wax, It obviously it has a melting point above 90degrees. What is the best method of masking, melt the wax, dip the barrels in and then remove the wax from the area to be plated?

Regards,

--------------------
If some is good, more is better.

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Francis
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Reged: 10/12/09
Posts: 42
Loc: Sedgwick, Victoria, Australia
Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: Francis]
      #158599 - 09/04/10 07:13 PM

Thanks 450 366 for the website, will give them a call and see what they say. I spoke to the electroless nickle kit supplier who said that wax would melt in the solution??? Is there a high melting point wax? It seems a lot of people have tried this method succesfully so the answers must be out there.

--------------------
If some is good, more is better.

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Bramble
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Reged: 29/07/06
Posts: 950
Loc: England
Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: Francis]
      #158638 - 10/04/10 02:51 AM

Francis.

Home plating type stuff is not HARD CHROME Plating, the industrial process is totally different from the decorative process. You cannot do this yourself.

Regards

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: Bramble]
      #158655 - 10/04/10 08:12 AM

Quote:

Francis.

Home plating type stuff is not HARD CHROME Plating, the industrial process is totally different from the decorative process. You cannot do this yourself.

Regards



Very true. "Hard" chrome is indeed extremely hard and well suited to areas subject to wear.
Hard chrome is certainly totally different to decorative chrome.
An old friend (no longer with us) who lived in Brisbane, was very good at hard chroming small parts to accurate thicknesses.
I used to have the valve stems for a particular motorcycle engine hard chromed, to eliminate wear at the stem.
Worked very well.

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Francis
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: 4seventy]
      #158656 - 10/04/10 09:05 AM

Thanks Bramble, that's the sort of info I am after. Interesting that neither the plater nor the kit suppliers I have spoken to have mentioned this. As they say, "no such thing as a free lunch". The process sounded like such a brilliant way fix the problem. As I have said previously, it's trying to find the right people to talk to.
Regards,

--------------------
If some is good, more is better.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: Francis]
      #158667 - 10/04/10 12:32 PM

This is an interesting thread. All it needs is someone with Nerve to try it. I have a Francotte that needs to be put back on face and this seems like a good method.

Hopefully some amateur out there will give it a go and let us know how hard it was to find the right plater and how it went.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: mickey]
      #158669 - 10/04/10 12:55 PM

Quote:



Hopefully some amateur out there will give it a go and let us know how hard it was to find the right plater and how it went.



That's a good point. Since my old mate died, I haven't heard of anyone else here in Oz who can do quality hard chrome on small areas.
Plenty can do good work on the big hydraulic rams and such, but they have trouble with the small stuff.

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GG375
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Reged: 27/02/04
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Loc: Brisbane
Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: 4seventy]
      #158808 - 12/04/10 07:17 PM


Thanks guys for your input.

There have been some interesting options put up. I like the idea of the hard chrome process as I imagine it would be pretty much undetectable, unlike dovetailing a new piece into the hook and re machining.

If anyone does find anyone trustworthy in OZ to do this please keep us all informed.

I was surprised that the tig welding option didn't seem well regarded. Is it hard to weld the concave hook surface or is it a more technical problem (voids, varying hardness of the weld etc?)

Cheers.

GG

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new_guy
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Re: Re tightening a double. [Re: GG375]
      #160535 - 16/05/10 05:31 AM

I would avoid shimming or adding dovetailed shoes if possible. They will work, but they don't add to the value of the gun in my opinion.

Laser welding has taken the place of TIG welding here in the states for this type of repair. That's the direction I would go on a fixed pin gun.

--------------------
www.heymUSA.com

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