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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #150546 - 13/01/10 08:40 PM

The Norma 6x70R (based on the old 6,5x70R "pencil" case), is also known as the 6x70R Rehwild, meaning "roe deer" and was introduced to the market just a few years ago. The name makes it pretty clear what it's target is; Europes must hunted deer.

To use an insert cartridge, you insert and lock the light muzzle-length barrel insert into a break-open shotgun bore. It's actually a bit more complicated than this because of the issue of different chokes, forcing cone shapes and barrel lengths. So normally the insert is made to precisely custom fit just one barrel of one break-open gun like a Drilling or an over/under combination rifle/shotgun. The insert is also indexed to that particular barrel by having it's extractor fit into a precisely milled out slot in the parent bore's extractor, so it piggy-backs. Usually the insert is placed in the RH barrel of a Drilling as these typically have a set trigger. The shotgun striker fires the rifle cartridge.

The 6x70R offers a small gain on the .22 Savage,(5,6x52R) which is also a popular insert cartridge choice because of relatively light back-pressure. Other possibilities are the 5,6x50R and, for predators like fox, the .22 Hornet.

The idea, by the way, is to get the insert in a scoped Drilling to group at 100 m to the same POA more or less as the big game cartridge still available to shoot in the Drilling, a 7x65R or similar. The way this is achieved varies with insert designs but one type has screws at the muzzle which are adjusted to bring the POI up, down or sideways. I'm told, (can't vouch for this), that it does this by actually bending the insert barrel in the middle. So you now have 2 choices of rifle immediately available to match the game - or you can remove it for double-barrelled wingshooting.

These inserts used to be somewhat shorter, 44cm for instance, but the problem was that they had to be removed from the shotgun bore to allow cleaning of that bore after firing. When replaced and re-locked them into place, they really needed to be resighted. By making these inserts muzzle-length now, the fouling problem has been averted, but now there are issues with any moisture that gets trapped between them and the shotgun bore. So proper water-proof sealing of the bore is also important if they are to be left there for any length of time.

My understanding is that Norma market 6x70R brass and I see that this is available from at least one US source. If you're buying a new Krieghoff combination gun, you could have such a insert fitted. You could buy the insert seperately, but who will custom fit it outside Europe ? Or you could import a gun from Europe and specify you want such an insert fitted beforehand. Or you could use a 6x70R barrel on a single shot. But do you have roe deer sized targets ?


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450_Ackley
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #150551 - 13/01/10 09:30 PM

Would also be a nice cartridge in a very light weight Ruger #1 as well I would think.
DC


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mehulkamdar
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: NitroX]
      #150595 - 14/01/10 02:13 AM

And just to confuse issues a bit, how about splitting the difference between the 5.6x52R and the 6x70R and looking at the 6x52R Bretschneider?

Good hunting!

--------------------
The Ark was made by amateurs. Experts built the Titanic.

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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: Kiwi_bloke]
      #150759 - 15/01/10 08:54 PM

Quote:

But do you have roe deer sized targets ?




I think it would be perfect in Aust for feral goats, most feral pigs, kangaroos, especially hog deer as well as capable on fallow and chital deer.

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John aka NitroX

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Buchsemann
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: NitroX]
      #150785 - 16/01/10 03:33 AM

Gentleman,

I'm not familiar with all of the animals of Australia and I'm curious, what is a "hog deer"?

I'd really like to see a picture of one of these critters if it's not too much trouble.

Thank you,

Buchseman

--------------------
Happy the man, and happy he alone,
He who can call today his own:
He who, secure within, can say,
Tomorrow do thy worst, for I have lived today.

- John Dryden


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: Buchsemann]
      #150786 - 16/01/10 03:47 AM

Here's a hunting story for you ... a double in 6x70R would be perfect in this environment too.

"Luck at Boole Poole" - click here





--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: NitroX]
      #150788 - 16/01/10 03:51 AM

By law Victoria requires a minimum of a 6mm bullet and a 50 mm long case for hog deer, so a 6x70R would be fine for this.

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Kiwi_bloke
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: NitroX]
      #150838 - 16/01/10 04:38 PM

The wildcat cartridge 6x52 Bretschneider is just the 5,6x52 (.22 Savage Hi-Power), necked up to 6 mm. I think the 6x70R edges it out a bit, probably because of slightly higher breech pressures and perhaps, being a newer era carridge, it may have stronger brass. It might also be a bit more of a challenge to find published reloading data for the Bretschneider, especially in English.

Given that the hog deer is in much the same class as the roe, (perhaps a bit bigger), the 6x70R, 6x52R, 5,6x52 and 5,6x50R should all be in the same ballpark. If you're not restricted to a break-open gun, the rimless version of the 5,6x50 (a Heym development), is going to have the best trajectory & retained energy compared to these rimmed cartridges.


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peter
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #150851 - 16/01/10 10:17 PM

Quote:

seriously Peter, is it do-able ? best, Mike




mike

we are talking about a completly new action that has to be developed, which brings us into 8-10 times more money than the quote you got from us
call me and i will explain what a project like that would involve.

best

peter


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peter
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: peter]
      #150852 - 16/01/10 10:20 PM

this is the link to normas webpage about this cartrigde.

http://www.norma.cc/sortimentjakt.asp?Kaliber=5&Lang=1&Kalibernamn=6x70R

they do sell them as loaded ammo, and i love their quality of ammo, so if it has been regulated with norma, then stay with norma and all is good

best

peter


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: peter]
      #150868 - 17/01/10 02:33 AM

Peter,

I think you are on a winner with this cartridge for all sorts of hunting.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: NitroX]
      #150869 - 17/01/10 02:36 AM

Some more questions.

Given the standard bullet weight of the cartridge seems to be a 90 gr projectile ...

What sort of twist rate do the barrels have?

Secondly if the twist rate is designed for a 90 gr projectile, how do you think a 60, 70, and/or 75 gr projectile would perform in it?

Thirdly as above, but with reduced power loads?

Assume for the moment, a single barrel rifle, then also answer if the rifle was a double barrel?

Thanks.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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peter
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: NitroX]
      #150884 - 17/01/10 03:46 AM

Quote:

Some more questions.

Given the standard bullet weight of the cartridge seems to be a 90 gr projectile ...

What sort of twist rate do the barrels have?

Secondly if the twist rate is designed for a 90 gr projectile, how do you think a 60, 70, and/or 75 gr projectile would perform in it?

Thirdly as above, but with reduced power loads?

Assume for the moment, a single barrel rifle, then also answer if the rifle was a double barrel?

Thanks.




John

the twist rate is a standard 1 in 10"

the lighter bullets should do all right as well, i will experiment a bit with the heavy ones (100-120 grains) when it is set up and tell you about the results.

i dont think you will need to reduce the loads as it really is a pussy cat to shoot and the report is very very mild.

these answers would go for both a single shot and a double.

if you come this year you will be abel to shoot both styles

best

peter


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: peter]
      #150888 - 17/01/10 03:55 AM

Quote:

i dont think you will need to reduce the loads as it really is a pussy cat to shoot and the report is very very mild.




I was thinking about damage on very small critters.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


Edited by NitroX (17/01/10 06:37 PM)


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peter
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: NitroX]
      #150890 - 17/01/10 04:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:

i dont think you will need to reduce the loads as it really is a pussy cat to shoot and the report is very very mild.




I thinking about damage on very small critters.




head shots, or solids then


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xausa
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: peter]
      #150913 - 17/01/10 06:28 AM

I have been fascinated with this cartridge ever since I encountered it in my DEVA loading manual. It appears to be the ideal solution for the problem of what to do with my H&H rook rifle, which I have had kicking around in the vault for close to 40 years now.

The original barrel of my rifle was sleeved to .22lr and numerous holes drilled and tapped in the integral rib barrel, which has been crudely cut off with a hack saw. The butt stock has also been shortened, perhaps for a young child. Cutting the barrel off far enough ahead of the breech to form a monoblock seems to be a workable solution and the 6X70R a perfect cartridge.

Any suggestions on who to get to do such a job?


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peter
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: xausa]
      #150915 - 17/01/10 06:43 AM

Quote:

I have been fascinated with this cartridge ever since I encountered it in my DEVA loading manual. It appears to be the ideal solution for the problem of what to do with my H&H rook rifle, which I have had kicking around in the vault for close to 40 years now.

The original barrel of my rifle was sleeved to .22lr and numerous holes drilled and tapped in the integral rib barrel, which has been crudely cut off with a hack saw. The butt stock has also been shortened, perhaps for a young child. Cutting the barrel off far enough ahead of the breech to form a monoblock seems to be a workable solution and the 6X70R a perfect cartridge.

Any suggestions on who to get to do such a job?




XAUSA

im just starting such a job and if it is of interest, i will see if i can do a blow by blow account about the job, i think you should be abel to find a smith overthere that can handle the job as it is not diffecult, it just takes a bit of time and concentration. could you show a picture of the gun in question ?

best

peter


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Dr_Deer
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: peter]
      #150957 - 17/01/10 06:39 PM

John, any details of the project you are mulling over that you'd care to share? An einstecklauf for an existing BBF perhaps or are you contemplating a whole new firearm?

The 6x70R certainly would be a handy small round to have in a drilling where both large and small game encountered are subject to minimum calibre regulations.


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: Dr_Deer]
      #151174 - 20/01/10 12:55 AM

At the appropriate time.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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JabaliHunter
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #151199 - 20/01/10 08:44 AM

Quote:

The minimum for roe here is 6mm and 1700ft/lb, so the 6x70R should be fine.



No, I was wrong. According to the Norma link above, the 90gr factory load at 2428fps yields 1178ft/lbs, so fails to meet the minimum in England for roe (6mm and 1700ft/lb). According to my arithmetic (could be wrong at this time of night!) that means that a 90gr .243 must be travelling at 2917fps to meet the minimum.
It would not be legal in Scotland either due to it's low velocity (easily remedied in this case) as the minimum is a 50 grain bullet AND 2450fps AND 1000ft/lbs (in reality, to use a 50gr bullet it would need to be launched at 3002fps).
Of course we all know that the 6x70R would work very effectively on deer this size, but technically you would need to hunt outside England and Scotland, which is a pity as we have some very nice bucks!


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peter
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: JabaliHunter]
      #151696 - 25/01/10 04:50 AM

this is the rifle my client, wanted me to convert, it really is a sweet little rifle.





best

peter


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450_366
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: peter]
      #151713 - 25/01/10 05:46 AM

Thats my kind of rifle, i envy you, but is it left handed?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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peter
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: 450_366]
      #151720 - 25/01/10 06:12 AM

it is completly straight stocked, only thing right handed is the trigger which is to live with. my client is actually a lefty and he is over the moon about it.

best

peter


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: peter]
      #152341 - 31/01/10 05:54 PM

Quote:

this is the rifle my client, wanted me to convert, it really is a sweet little rifle.





best

peter




Peter,

that single shot would be really sweet.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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peter
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Re: Thoughts on the 6x70mm Rimmed? [Re: NitroX]
      #152413 - 01/02/10 06:56 AM

john

i think that there would be a very good chance for a test shoot next time you are here i hope it gets out of the work shop soon though, as i tend to get sweeter on it every time i work on it

best

peter


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