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Ripp
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 450_366]
      #144204 - 23/10/09 02:04 PM

Quote:

Quote:


450_366

Who was the first part of your post aimed at ?????








No one in particular, it was only an observation of the posts on this subject, not only from this tread.

When posting i try not to hurt peoples feelings, sorry if some got hurt by it.







Maybe words of wisdom we could apply to everyday life as well as this forum...


Do agree with the comment though, think it is healthy for a discussion on this to take place, as stated, how else would people learn??

Thank you

Ripp

--------------------
ALL MEN DIE, BUT FEW MEN TRULY LIVE..

Edited by Ripp (24/10/09 01:27 AM)


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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Huvius]
      #144219 - 23/10/09 03:10 PM

Quote:

Just a quick question.
I have a box of Barnes .416 mono solids which I ended up with somwhere along the line.
They are a light yellow brass color and seem to be quite hard and are the older style with no driving bands - I have never used any.
Is there any information regarding the composition of Barnes or any other makers' mono solids?
Can they be annealed to "soften" them up? How about my earlier suggestion of boring them out to allow for some comression?




I called Barnes today.

I didn't read this before I did or I would have asked about the hardness. I can do so.

First; According to Barnes, the driving band type was developed for a couple reasons. One was that they found accuracy was improved with the driving band type to the tune of better than 50% reduction in group size {2-inch groups became sub-1-inch groups}. You guys that shoot them can verify that or not. They incorporated a flat meplat also, as they found thru testing and customer etc, recommendations that it penetrated deeper/straighter than the older RN type. I think this is well-established fact now.

As for pressure, the driving band type was said to produce somewhat LESS pressures, about 2,000 psi on average, which is something on the order of the range in variation in other bullets tested, so peaks were similar to some other bullets, tho average was greater for the non-banded.

Huvius: from my knifemaking experience I can tell you how to anneal a gilding metal bullet {I do not know if they are sold "dead soft"}. Heat it up to glowing red and drop it in a bucket of water. Opposite of steel hardening. But I can also suggest that the probability is you will get warping and deformation of the bullet if you do. Maybe it wouldn't matter at close range. The surface will oxidize, so you'll have to tumble them if you want pretty bullets.

Copper alloys are normally measured on the Rockwell B scale, and harder materials like steel on the C scale.

Rifle barrels normally register about 24-to-low '30's on the C scale. Brass alloys are normally measured on the B scale for softer metals. It is possible to harden brass or bronze to exceed pure iron in hardness tho I've never done it, that is, had it tested, as pure iron is hard to come by. What passes for "iron" is usually mild steel. Brass runs about 93RB and that correlates to about 16RC, very "soft" for steel. Knives run in the high 20's for some bayonets {soft spring}, mid-high 40's for machetes to low 60's for "short" knives. A knife that goes RC62 is a very hard knife. I heat treat my own to 50RC for hard use bolos to 57RC for hunting knives. Those I donate to servicemen I heat treat to about 52-54 for good hardness with excellent toughness, and I apply a differential hardening as well to prevent breakage. In simple carbon steels, in a general sense, the harder the knife blade, the less "tough" it is, i.e. the more brittle it is.

Theoretically, a VERY hard, oversize bullet could "egg-in-the snake" its way thru a thin, soft steel gun barrel. What that would do to the rifling is unknown to me and certainly no one here has provided any proof of damage though we can all imagine some sort of damage, mostly at the breech end and at solder joints along the barrels. Hard steel jacket, tungsten- or hard steel-core military ammo can produce excessive rifling wear as cited in various military ordnance sources and by experience. Pressing the rifling to the outside of the barrel? I don't know, but I do know it would take pressure, and lots of it. And for it to push the rifling out similarly at the breech as at the muzzle is, well, almost impossible for me to imagine if that is what it is said to do. Nay, impossible, in the absense of any proof, which, of course, as always, has not been provided. Daryl is right. It takes pressure. LOTS of pressure at the thick breech, and, indeed, quite a bit at the bayonet end.

Just how an engraved, undersized bullet {Barnes are sold undersize & I'm sure all double owners slug their guns, right...?} could push rifling out to show on the outside of a barrel near the muzzle is unknown to me and not demonstrated here by anyone. Indeed, it defies credulity.

For an undersize bullet to engrave, NOT obturate and then press the rifling out anyway seems, well, you all decide. In fact, the suggestion that an undersize Barnes {or other} bullet does not obturate is a recommendation for it, not a condemnation in this instance.

As for boring them out, I submit that MIGHT cause obturation depending on the wall thickness of the remaining bullet and, correspondingly, greater pressures...

Maybe we should fill the void with something. Like lead?

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (23/10/09 11:08 PM)


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bwananelson
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #144222 - 23/10/09 03:33 PM

if you doubt dont do it but i posed that question to EVERY maker and none stated a problem with modern guns or steel.iits your double if you think after spending tens of thousands of dollars that will be hurt by copper dont shoot them but on the hardness test coper is softer than steel will some one post rockwells hardness for steel.copper ,bronze ect

--------------------
THERE ARE NO DO OVERS IN LIFE DONT LET A CHANCE AT A DREAM SLIP AWAY.


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500grains
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Ripp]
      #144232 - 23/10/09 04:29 PM

9.3 x 57, I don't know what you are up to with this, but Barnes has fed you a line of bullcrap.

So if you are unsure, may I suggest that you take a vintage double rifle and fire 200 Barnes solids through it, and observe the result?

Also, someone commented above that until 2007 Barnes solids were not of driving band design. AND they are still NOT. They are grooved, because Barnes does not wish to invest the machine time necessary to produce a genuine driving band bullet which would not damage double rifles.


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Ripp]
      #144239 - 23/10/09 06:28 PM

Peter, I'll post the pics when the rifle is in Spain, I'm off to test it at Hollands shooting school on 5th Nov, maybe see you in London that week ? best, Mike

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peter
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #144241 - 23/10/09 06:34 PM

Quote:

Peter, I'll post the pics when the rifle is in Spain, I'm off to test it at Hollands shooting school on 5th Nov, maybe see you in London that week ? best, Mike




i am planning on just that, when we get a bit closer, i will call you to firm dates up

best

peter


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #144242 - 23/10/09 06:36 PM

Sorry to hear the news Ripp, good luck. 9.3, I hear what you are saying and for the life of me I can't understand how a copper bullet can damage a steel barrel BUT there are a lot of people out there with a lot of knowledge who say they can so just stick with Woodleighs ? best, Mike

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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Mike_Bailey]
      #144243 - 23/10/09 07:51 PM

500g:

I guess it is just plain interesting.

Mike Bailey sums it up well; both sides have presented their case. Barnes with their technical material, and the other side with assertions.

Everyone can believe what they want to believe.

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?


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peter
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #144249 - 23/10/09 11:09 PM

Quote:

500g:

I guess it is just plain interesting.

Mike Bailey sums it up well; both sides have presented their case. Barnes with their technical material, and the other side with assertions.

Everyone can believe what they want to believe.




rod

barnes have not presented any technical material, that is worth a damn, regarding double rifles IMO.

It is actually quite funny in that, they approch the truth of the matter a few times and then misunderstands the entire subject in the end.

Quote:

barnes web page:
It is a fact that some double rifle barrels are out of spec on bore and groove diameters. In a perfect world we would build bullets to fit each individual throat and barrel, but this is simply not feasible. So we try to build bullets that will work safely for the majority. SAAMI requires that diameters on all sporting rifles not exceed +.002”, but double rifles were being built long before SAAMI came into existence




THIS IS THE KEY PROBLEM, REGARDING MONOMETAL BULLETS !!!
plus most of the new dbl. rifles are buildt to CIP spec. as they come from europe.

Quote:

Barnes web page:
To further reduce bearing surface and pressure, Barnes has cut a series of grooves in the shank of the mono-metal solid that provides any material displaced by the lands someplace to go. Full metal jackets do not have this feature. Steel on steel is not the desired scenario for a rifle barrel, especially if what people are saying is true about the older barrels being made from softer material. Is the steel in the jacket material softer or harder than the barrel steel? In general, we don’t know the answer to this as the metal used for double rifle barrels has varied to such a great extent over the years. However, we know for a fact that the brass in Barnes Banded Solids IS softer than barrel steel. We also know that the grooves cut in the shank provide an area for the softer material to displace.




i dont condone the mudslinging of their competition, especially since this is where they prove that they dont understand the subject at hand, it is not about material strenght, but weather or not the bullet material will give to the barrel instead of the barrel material giving to the bullet.
The barrel shank is the problem they should be looking at, maybe the shank dia. of a barnes banded is small enough for you to use them, maybe it is NOT. that can vary both in new guns and especially in the older gems.

Quote:

barnes web site:
I believe the “high pressure with all mono-metal solids” propaganda was spread via the old “someone heard something from someone” and so on, and so on. If someone out there is aware of an actual case involving pressure issues with BARNES mono-metal solids, I would ask that these people contact Barnes personally. We would like the opportunity to investigate any such claim. Based on our tests and experience, I’m comfortable stating that Barnes Banded Solids are better for antique barrels than the competition




THIS is where they are making a major mistake, lets do an fun example:

My alex henry from 1883, im using the barrelset in the small caliber 450/400 3 1/4", so im buying the 450/400 caliber bullets in .410", now had it been a normal barrel size with a 408 bore and a 410 grove, it could actually work fine.
Now my barrels made by daniel frazer in edinburgh for the alex henry action, are actually .405" bore with a .408" grove, which mean that it could destroy my barrels completly......

but barnes wrote that their bullets are better than woodleighs, and had the technial proofs posted as well. YES they did, so who should have the pleasure of me wrapping my destroyed rifle barrels around their neck real tight...... hmmm maybe barnes

rod im not picking on your post, but as i wrote in my PM to you, these guy's still dont know double rifles well enough to be putting out statments like that, and they apparently dont have a problem with using our prized gems as test guns.

another issue is different rifling profiles, i can not even imagine the damage a oversized shank bullet would do to a henry rifling or a lancaster oval bore.

Quote:

I’m comfortable stating that Barnes Banded Solids are better for antique barrels than the competition




this is the dumbest statment ever, and they should remove it at once.

best regards

peter

this rant here is my own rant, and not a official statment from John Rigby & Co. Ltd London


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9.3x57
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: peter]
      #144252 - 23/10/09 11:33 PM

Thanks Peter.

I think you have presented here more technical data from the OSR Camp than I've ever read before on this Forum! But still you haven't given proof of a double being damaged by a Barnes bullet.

And that damage is, among other things, a spiral pattern of rifling pressed out and visible on the outside of the barrel from stern to stem.

You are right on with rifling types, too, as they present varying amounts of resistance to a bullet.

YES, I wholeheartedly agree that the shank size of the bullet must or at least could be a factor and thank you for saying so. It seems to be so in my own sizing "experiments".

And the Barnes statement you highlight in red, well, I also agree...pretty broad-sweeping it is. To me, it is meaningful only if correct diameter bullets are shot thru a gun, but even then, it is a very inclusive and confident statement. I do not think I'd make that statement myself if I were them.

As for bullet diameters though, I slug all my older guns. Why, because as you state, they vary. In my 9.3 rifles I custom size bullets to fit. I simply cannot imagine a fellow buying any double and then NOT slugging it, and knowing all relevant measurements, especially if they are handloading for it. And as for bullets, I'd be checking every bullet type for size and frankly, I'd check every lot change also. I thought that went without saying, but maybe not. Maybe some double gun owners have shot oversize bullets thru their rifles and damaged them. Or maybe, as I believe you and I touched on in the PM's, some old guns {and poorly made new ones...} are merely damaged by being fired at all.

I'm not telling anyone to use Barnes or A-Square or a new Remington or Hornady or any other bullet in their guns. As Bwananelson says, use what you like, "it's your gun". I'm simply saying this; if the damage is extensive and everywhere, then let them show evidence of it. I cannot imagine that no one has done private testing on this issue when it involves guns of tens of thousands of dollars value. People do stuff that costs hundreds of dollars as a hobby all the time. Yet no one has shoved a few experiments down Barnes' corporate throat in spite of all the guns that have been so-called ruined by their bullets?

I can tell you this; if I owned a $60,000 {or some such value} double that was ruined by a Barnes bullet, I would make sure Barnes never forgot my name and the correct spelling of it. You all would know it, too. At any rate, they would see it often enough in black and white in front of them. The judge would read it in court. I have any number of ideas about ways to prove the point for hundreds, not thousands of dollars and certainly not tens of thousands of dollars. And with the values of guns we are dealing with, such experiments would be worth the cost and effort.

Most people stiffen a little when they are told "trust me, you don't need any evidence". And when they read, "I have lots of evidence but I don't know how to operate a digital camera", they are about finished with the topic, and frankly, I am, too.

Some people on this forum like to smear Barnes. Some even admit they have no direct experience of damage, only hearsay. If Barnes did something worth condemning and they can prove it, I'm all ears to hear it and I'll be first to join their chorus.

And yes, no matter how you cut it, it takes pressure to displace metal. Those bullets, any bullets, aren't driven up the bore with a feather.

Frankly, Peter, and this just came to me, you would possibly be a trustworthy, disinterested party to conduct some tests. I offered to kick in some dough to get that going, and the offer still stands. How about a skinny-barrel test? Such a barrel could be miked in various internal and external positions before firing and then after.

My point is this; If OSR cannot be reproduced in a lab, it doesn't exist. I happen to have a theory about how it occurs {if it does} and think I know a good way to find out if it can be reproduced, but nobody has yet directly shown that it does with Barnes bullets, at least nobody has shown it to us here. And no, you do not need a "$60,000 Double" to perform a meaningful test. PM me again and we can discuss it if you like.

BTW: I'm told the owner of Barnes owns several doubles. Guess what he shoots in them?

No...I can't prove it...

--------------------
What are the Rosary, the Cross or the Crucifix other than tools to help maintain the fortress of our faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God?

Edited by 9.3x57 (24/10/09 12:01 AM)


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peter
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #144257 - 24/10/09 12:14 AM

Quote:

Frankly, Peter, and this just came to me, you would possibly be a trustworthy disinterested party to conduct some tests. I offered to kick in some dough to get that going, and the offer still stands. How about a skinny-barrel test? Such a barrel could be miked in various internal and external positions before firing and then after.




rod

thank you for the vote of confidence, as i told you, i am working on a design for a monometal bullet, in whatever little time i have left at the moment

the reason why tests proberly wont be conducted is that to determine the actual damage you need a set of double rifle barrels to prove it and although i can make them at cost i will much rather sell them than blowing them up.

slugging the barrels is not done as much as it should be done, and that is one of the major excuses the bullet makers can use to counter any claims in court, and since courtcases demand money most people stay away from them alltogether.

i once did a small test, that at least can give you an idea about the damage that can happen with these guns, i fired a slightly oversize copper ball through a shotgun, the ribs came lose from a third down the barrels, and the shotgun were a total loss alltogether, the size difference to the bore and and the ball were only 0.02mm, using barnes logic that shouldent have happened because the steel is harder than the copper and there were plenty of room to displace the metal, with it being a round ball.

i have my own ideas about OSR, and i play around with them whenever i have the time, problem is that time is rare at the moment.

one thing i wonder about is a lot of older barrels were slightly constricted in the musselend back in the day, a bit like a shotgun constriction, and it worked well, but i think that fact might be helping osr along, now i dont know but, if barnes test barrel were a low cost test tube then it surly wont be sporting this constriction feature, thereby making their test absolutly useless.

we can all set up test's to be proven right, but a test to actually investigate what happens would be a sight to behold, maybe when i have more time and a set of old barrels that i dont have any use for.

my bullet design is meant for use both in new barrels and in such rifling as henry and other oddball stuff, when it will be ready, only the gods knows

best regards

peter


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nitro450exp
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: peter]
      #144260 - 24/10/09 12:42 AM

Hello All,

400NE
Have you observed a barrel wall thickness threshold where OSR is more or less likely to occur ?
I have a CZ550 (.375 H&H), Ruger RSM (.416 Rigby) and Douglas barrelled Mark X (9.3x62).
I have both X and Mono solids from Barnes, The X's are the old type (no bands) and the Mono's are the round nose type (I believe they have bands, I will have to check).
I have done some limited load development, and have not observed any issues.
But now I am curious since OSR has been observed in bolt guns.
All of the above guns have pretty healty, meaty barrels.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

This is not a hijack, just a redirect, since OSR is still the subject, just not in doubles.

Thanks
Nitro450exp

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR


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DarylS
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: Ripp]
      #144267 - 24/10/09 01:35 AM

Guys - I am sorry for any and all offence generated by my post. It is frustrating trying to get to the bottom of the 'problem', especially when we have seen no proof. We're told there are/were a number of guns thus damaged, with the lands of the rifling pressed out to the outside, even protruding or at lest visible, but none are brought foreward. Any movement of the lands must increase the bore diameter to a measurable degree - any measurements before and after?

BTW - Jacketed bullets or monometal bullets of groove diameter or slightly under as in the shank length of Barnes TSX's, do not "obturate" into the rifling. No modern bullet obturates as it engages the rifling. To obturate, bullets must be of ductile nature or material and they are undersize to the groove diameter in the first place, then expand to fill the rifling, as the minnie-bullets did which were shot in Civil War rifles and rifles around Europe at that time. That is obturation. "Obturation" is expansion in diameter which causes a reduction in length. Obturation is caused when the rearward pressure against the bullet exceeds it's elastic strength and causes it to foreshorten and expand into the rifling. This happens prior to the bullet's initial movement inside the bore. Simply put, the rear of the bullet moves before the front, causing it to expand in diameter but become slightly shorter.

Perhaps the word "Obturate" is being used because it 'sounds' knowledgeable. Unfortunately, it's use in this context of solid metal bullets is ridiculous.

I suspect you are trying to say the bullet is too hard and dense to allow the lands to engrave/impress into it, therefore causing the lands to press outwards. You are saying the bullet forces the lands outwards. If this was actually happening, there would be incredible pressure outwards from the bore of the barrel which would SHOW on a strain gauge as well as any other type of pressure measuring device. If there is no recording of excessive pressure, then physics says damage isn't being created.

Do you really have any idea how much breech PRESSURE, in PSI it would take to actually press the lands out through the metal of the barrel by a bullet. The bullet would have to be very hard indeed. Theree probably aren't any doubles rifles made, then or now, which could contain such pressures, let alone have this happen at normal pressures.
I don't believe you realise just exactly what you are claiming is happening.

Obturation is not only fine but necessary if you want to shoot undersized (under groove diameter) lead bullets, grooved lubricated or paper patched undersize bullets from your double rifle. The breech pressure must be high enough to cause obturation of the bullet metal being used, so the lead bullet will expand to engage the rifling. Obturation is necessary for shooting some bullets in some barrels, but generally doesn't happen in modern guns shooting modern bullets. It certainly won't happen in double rifles shooting jacketed bullets of sufficient integrity to withstand heavy animal structure, especially at the low pressures involved and necessary in these weaker actions.

--------------------
Daryl


"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

Edited by Daryl_S (24/10/09 02:35 AM)


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450_366
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #144268 - 24/10/09 01:37 AM

Quote:


The 9.3 suffered. It was sold shortly thereafter, and I've not heard tell of it since. The other was only fired with a very few mono-solids, and OSR became very slightly visible, after which monos were discontinued. I've used lead core bullets since and it's never gotten worse, and remains very accurate. That rifle is also pre-war. However, as Wright observes, it happens with new guns as well.




The one you cept, does it have a tapered bore?

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"


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Mike_Bailey
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 450_366]
      #144274 - 24/10/09 02:13 AM

OK Peter, I will stump up US$500 for this "test pair" of barrels, who else is interested ? Can we raise the dough to do a proper test ? best, Mike

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400NitroExpress
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 450_366]
      #144276 - 24/10/09 02:32 AM

Quote:

Quote:


The 9.3 suffered. It was sold shortly thereafter, and I've not heard tell of it since. The other was only fired with a very few mono-solids, and OSR became very slightly visible, after which monos were discontinued. I've used lead core bullets since and it's never gotten worse, and remains very accurate. That rifle is also pre-war. However, as Wright observes, it happens with new guns as well.




The one you cept, does it have a tapered bore?




No.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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500grains
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: peter]
      #144279 - 24/10/09 02:51 AM


Quote:

I’m comfortable stating that Barnes Banded Solids are better for antique barrels than the competition




this is the dumbest statement ever,




I agree!


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mickey
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #144280 - 24/10/09 02:57 AM

I have a 9.3x74R that I feel was damaged by Barnes X bullets. I shot 36 of the 286 Grain bullets through it and the rifle was taken off face. You can also see a 'shadow' of the rifling on the right barrel if the you hold it to a bright light in just the right way.

I can't say as a 'fact' that the damage was caused by the X bullets and I can't say for a 'fact' that the damage wasn't there from before. But I think it is true.

The interesting part was how fast it came off face. I was showing it to my friend before we went out shooting (Zebra culling) and he commented on how tight it was for a 70 year rifle. Three days later you could slide a business card between the standing breech and the barrels. It was while looking at it that he noticed the rifling impressions on the barrel.

Maybe a coincidence?

I spoke to Randy Brooks about it at SCI that January and was blown off with 'it must be a cumulative result, my bullets are the best thing in the world' comment. He was not interested in talking about it, I think he was afraid others might overhear.

Much the same as his conversation with 500 grains at SCI a couple of years ago about his bullets failing.

If you put your hands over your ears and jump up and down while singing it is hard to hear others talking.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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SharpsNitro
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: nitro450exp]
      #144281 - 24/10/09 03:01 AM

Quote:

Hello All,

400NE
Have you observed a barrel wall thickness threshold where OSR is more or less likely to occur ?
I have a CZ550 (.375 H&H), Ruger RSM (.416 Rigby) and Douglas barrelled Mark X (9.3x62).
I have both X and Mono solids from Barnes, The X's are the old type (no bands) and the Mono's are the round nose type (I believe they have bands, I will have to check).
I have done some limited load development, and have not observed any issues.
But now I am curious since OSR has been observed in bolt guns.
All of the above guns have pretty healty, meaty barrels.

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

This is not a hijack, just a redirect, since OSR is still the subject, just not in doubles.

Thanks
Nitro450exp




Nitro450exp

I have a friend who has built several "super light" bolt guns in .308 based cases (i.e. .243, 7-08 etc). He uses an incredibly thin barrel that is fluted, length is 19"; these barrels are about as thin as he can go and keep them safe. To make up for the short barrel he uploads a bit to recover the lost velocity. He also uses Barnes TSXs. So far, I have heard of no issues with his barrels. It's one data point so take it for what its worth.


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nitro450exp
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Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: SharpsNitro]
      #144286 - 24/10/09 04:04 AM

SharpsNitro

Thanks for the input.
As I mentioned the projectiles I have, are the erlier X and Mono solids before, the TSX.
So they lack the "driving bands" or "grooves" that allow the "flow" of the copper.
They copper foul like a SOB.
I guess I should just shell out the cash and get the new TSX's
Maybe I can sell them on GB.

Nitro450exp

PS: 400NE hoping you will chime in with some input.

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR


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400NitroExpress
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Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 9.3x57]
      #144289 - 24/10/09 04:17 AM

Peter:

A question for you. You're a gunmaker and, of course, you know what "well-struck" means, which 9.3 obviously doesn't. Do you think that obvious imperfections in barrel striking would be easy to photograph? If so, how would you go about it?

Quote:

Originally posted by 9.3X57:

Daryl is right. It takes pressure. LOTS of pressure at the thick breech, and, indeed, quite a bit at the bayonet end.




Unsubstantiated speculation proven false by Barnes. This canard floated by Barnes is pure BS, and Barnes' own tests proved that it was, although their tests proved nothing else. One more time, NOBODY believes that excessive chamber pressure has ANYTHING to do with it. ONLY Barnes says that it does, and they maintain that OSR doesn't even exist.

Mono-metal bullets don't create excessive pressure in bolt rifles, and they don't in double rifles either. Anyone that says otherwise has no data to support it, because it isn't true. Bolt rifles have much thicker min wall than quality double rifles do, and that's the difference. You don't understand that because you have no experience with the type.

Quote:

Just how an engraved, undersized bullet {Barnes are sold undersize & I'm sure all double owners slug their guns, right...?} could push rifling out to show on the outside of a barrel near the muzzle is unknown to me and not demonstrated here by anyone. Indeed, it defies credulity.




Even though you have no experience with double rifles and have no knowledge of them, you continue to refer to this as theory. It's isn't. Many professionals in the DR trade have observed it first hand. David Winks (shop foreman for Holland & Holland, now retired) is on record that a NEW .465 Royal suffered OSR in regulating it with mono solids, before the rifle was even finished, and new barrels had to be made. You continue to ignore the quote from Russell Wilkin (Holland & Holland) from Graeme Wright's book that I posted. You continue to ignore Mike Bailey's post about the NEW Holland & Holland double rifle that he commissioned (you have any idea how expensive that is?)

Quote:

I have no ties to anyone, but the heads of gunrooms at Holland and the ex regulator at Westleys have
both told me I will be nuts if I put any mono's down my gun (a new one) and I don't intend to try, best, Mike




You continue to ignore one of the foremost authorities on double rifles and their ammunition. This "if it's news to 9.3, IT'S NEWS" stuff is tiresome. This attitude of yours that because Graeme Wright, Ross Seyfried, Holland & Holland, Geoff MacDonald, et. al. haven't taken you by your little hand and "proven" the phenomenon of OSR to you that it's a fraud is as intellectually bankrupt as it is dishonest. These people have enormous experience in the DR field in general, and the problems of barrel damage from mono bullets in them in particular. You have zero, yet you suggest that theirs "defies credulity", and that's hysterical.

Quote:

Originally posted by 9.3X57:

And for it to push the rifling out similarly at the breech as at the muzzle is, well, almost impossible for me to imagine if that is what it is said to do. Nay, impossible, in the absense of any proof, which, of course, as always, has not been provided.




Like I said, come click away. Further, I'll arrange to have a DR with OSR at the booth at SCI in Reno in January. If you're so interested in gathering information about OSR, you have to make an effort. I have, over a lot of years. I'm sure you'll make excuses, as your "interest" here is clearly feigned and dishonest.

Like I said, it's clear that you have an agenda here. I don't know what it is, don't care, but it obviously doesn't have anything to do with learning something about the issue. Your unveiled insults make that clear.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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peter
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Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #144291 - 24/10/09 04:54 AM

Quote:

Peter:

A question for you. You're a gunmaker and, of course, you know what "well-struck" means, which 9.3 obviously doesn't. Do you think that obvious imperfections in barrel striking would be easy to photograph? If so, how would you go about it?




mark

i have actually experimented with the camera since this tread started, and the closest i have come so far is with the lens very close to the barrel and the mussel end against a dimed light(glass plate with white paper in front the light) but the results are not good enough yet, my better half is a lot better than me with the camera, and she is working on it now.

best regards

peter


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nitro450exp
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Reged: 06/09/07
Posts: 254
Loc: Michigan, USA
Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: 400NitroExpress]
      #144292 - 24/10/09 04:55 AM

Hey 400NitroExpress

I know you are distracted, But I would like to know if you feel that OSR
is a risk in bolt guns, and at what barrel wall thickness you have experienced it.
I will be at DSC again this coming year, will that DR be at DSC, I would love to see it.

Thanks
Nitro450exp

--------------------
"Man is a predator or at least those of us that kill and eat our own meat are. The rest are scavengers, eating what others kill for them." Hugh Randall

45/70 DR / 12ga Paradox
470 NE DR
12 Bore DR
20 Bore DR
450 NE SR
577 NE SR


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: nitro450exp]
      #144293 - 24/10/09 05:31 AM

Look Guys:

I'm with Andreas. These two strings got out of hand quite rapidly. On this subject, it seems they always do, and there's no good reason for that.

I'll say again, the problems with mono-metal projectiles in double rifles are not specific to Barnes. There are many out there.

I DO find statements like this:

Quote:

I’m comfortable stating that Barnes Banded Solids are better for antique barrels than the competition




...disturbing in the extreme, because I have painful personal experience to the contrary. It never fails that when this subject periodically arises here or on AR, when I post my first hand experience and observations about it, I get called a liar or worse. That's a particularly nasty insult, when I'm holding a treasured DR of my own in my own hands and know what I can see with my own eyes. It's a real pisser. In that epiphany, how would YOU guys feel about it? I don't have it "in" for anybody. I suppose my view of this issue in double rifles is coloured by the fact that I'm not a wealthy man, and one doesn't just screw off the old tubes and slap new ones on. It's an expensive mistake. My interest is in helping others avoid making the same mistakes that I, and many others have. Being accused of having some other sinister motive doesn't sit well.

I don't know how to display it on the internet, but I do know how to show it to someone in person. I make the commitment to have a DR with visible OSR with me at SCI in January. Anyone who doubts the existence of OSR in double rifles is welcome to come by and look at it.

In reality, this issue isn't much different from that of many other products. Any given product is appropriate for a given use, but it's just common sense that it may be potentially inappropriate for others. Like steel shot is a potential problem in some shotguns, it's been known for a long time that mono-metal bullets can be a real problem is double rifles.

Via PM, I hear that some wonder if I have a professional connection to some bullet-maker. The answer is no. I have no economic or professional connection to any business in the firearms trade. I'm purely an enthusiast. For the purposes of full disclosure, I DO work the Heym AG booth at SCI. Heym picks up my air ticket, but does not otherwise compensate me. All of us at the booth are long time personal friends and double rifle junkies. I've hunted with all of them, and still do. I enjoy SCI, I believe in Heym's product, and much enjoy hanging out with my good friends at the booth. You'll find me there in January. This will be my third year there.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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400NitroExpress
.400 member


Reged: 26/11/03
Posts: 1154
Loc: Lone Star State
Re: OSR, Double Damage and Barnes' Response [Re: nitro450exp]
      #144294 - 24/10/09 05:38 AM

Quote:

Hey 400NitroExpress

I know you are distracted, But I would like to know if you feel that OSR
is a risk in bolt guns, and at what barrel wall thickness you have experienced it.
I will be at DSC again this coming year, will that DR be at DSC, I would love to see it.

Thanks
Nitro450exp




I don't know if I'll be at DSC this year or not. If I make it, I'll be at the Heym booth, and I'll bring one. I'm one of the founders of a group that's conducting a hunt that starts the last day of the DSC show, so DSC is kind of tight for me. If you'll please PM me a week or so before the show, I'll be able to give you a better answer.

Generally no, magazine rifles don't have anything like the problems with monos that doubles do, as min wall is much thicker. I HAVE heard of bolt rifles showing OSR, but have not seen one myself. I think it must be quite rare in single barrel rifles, but it would certainly depend on barrel profile.

--------------------
"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."


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