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AlaskanPH
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NITRO ?
      #13902 - 24/04/04 03:11 AM

Though this is a simple question, I firmly beleive that the only stupid question is the one not asked, so - what does Nitro refer to in regards to various calibers (i.e. 500 Nitro Express)?

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unspellable
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: AlaskanPH]
      #13906 - 24/04/04 03:49 AM

The way my dear old dad put it was, "Never be afraid to ask a stupid question. They're easier to deal with than stupid mistakes."

The term "nitro" simply refers to smokeless powder. If the cartrdige is designated as XXX-XXX Nitro Express it was developed for smokelss powder. If it is designated XXX-XXX Nitro for BP it is a smokeless loading in a cartridge orginally developed for black powder and developes a safe pressure for the black powder fire arm.

While we are at it, the term "express" means a rifle cartridge that developes a muzzle velocity in excess of 1800 fps or so. A real trick with black powder when the term was coined but easy to do with smokeless.

The term "magnum" means a cartridge with a larger than standard powder capacity for cartrdiges in the same caliber and class. Thus the 375 H&H (For which the term was coined.) is a magnum since the powder capcity is larger than any 375 that preceded it. On the other hand the 458 Winchester Magnum and the 32 H&R magnum are not true magnums since they have LESS than standard powder capcity for cartridges in their class. The 458 has the smallest powder capacity of almost any 45 except the 45-70 and the new 450 Marlin. The 32 H&R has a shorter case than any magnum revolver cartrdige and has less powder capacity than the 32-20. Hence the "magnum" moniker is pure advertising copy writer's hyperbole.

BTW: The reason the 458 Winchester has such a small case is so that it can be used in a standard length bolt action.






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AlaskanPH
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: unspellable]
      #13908 - 24/04/04 05:25 AM

unspellable,

Thank you very much the informed answer - that was excatly what I was wondering and now I know!


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AlaskanPH
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Water Table ? [Re: unspellable]
      #13909 - 24/04/04 05:30 AM

While I am on the topic of simple questions as I get to learn more about my double, what is the "water table" in reference to the action of a double rifle?

Thanks in advance,
Alaskan PH


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unspellable
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Re: Water Table ? [Re: AlaskanPH]
      #13911 - 24/04/04 06:12 AM

If you remove the barrels and examine the action body the standing breech is the vertical surface the base of the cartridges rest against. It has the firing pin holes in it. The horizontal surface in front of the standing breech that would be under the rear portion of the barrels if they were in place is the water table. Don't ask me why it's called the water table.



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unspellable
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Re: Water Table ? [Re: unspellable]
      #13912 - 24/04/04 06:25 AM

PS. The majority of the terms used for the anatomy of a double rifle are also used with a double shotgun. There are a few differences between British and US usage.

Also, like a double rifle, a double shotgun should be regulated so both barrels shot to the same point. In the case of the shotgun they are regulated for a range of 40 yards. Since the shotgun throws a pattern the regulation is not quite so critical, nobody notices if it's off a couple of inches. Shotguns are generally regulated for a shot load and will not shoot slugs from both barrels to the same point. An exception is the Bernardelli slug gun which had the barrels regulated for slugs at 100 yards. There is also such a thing as a ball gun which is smooth bored but otherwise like a rifle and regulated for shooting gauge sized balls. Then there is also the Paradox type gun which has the last two or three inches of the barrels rifled and shoots gauge sized bullets. The Paradox will do reasonabley well with bird shot. (Paradox was a trademark, various makers used various terms for the same thing. Today we call them all Paradoxes, sort of like calling facial tissues Kleenex.)


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Spring
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Re: Water Table ? [Re: unspellable]
      #13913 - 24/04/04 06:37 AM

Unspellable,
You're quite an authority! I enjoyed reading your answers in this forum. What is your background that helped you accumulate all this info?


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470Rigby
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: AlaskanPH]
      #13920 - 24/04/04 04:12 PM

Alaskan- James Purdey (the Younger) developed the Express rifle concept in the early 1850's as a two-groove muzzle loader.

Prior to this, muzzle-loading rifles were usually large calibre, multi-grooved and loaded to low velocities with a small powder charges to avoid the problem of bullet stripping.

Although accurate, these rifles suffered from such poor trajectories that range was limited to around 100 yards.

Purdey overcame this by building small calibre rifles with two deep gooves and slow rifling twists. This avoided bullet stripping when large powder charges were used to achieve higher velocities and thus, flatter trajectories.

Borrowing from the earlier military Brunswick rifle of 1837, Purdey used a cast light-weight "winged" bullet that matched the rifle grooving.

The original Purdey rifles were 40 bore, had 32 inch barrels with one turn in six feet rifling twist, and took a charge of 21/2 drams of powder over a 1/2ounce "ball".The effective range was in excess of 300 yards; revolutionary in their day!

Originally, Purdey described his rifle concept as the "Express Train", to reflect the contempory developments in railway technology, "speed, power and straight direction". In time, this was shortened to "Express".

This concept was later adapted to the new breechloading rifles coming into vogue, and the term came to describe any rifle of ordinary weight that fired a large charge of powder and a light bullet; the object being higher velocities and flatter trajectory. To fully realise this benefit, expanding bullets(read hollow nosed) were also developed.

The definition of the term "Express" soon came to be hotly debated in the English gun trade. The prominent innovator, Metford described it in the popular press of the day as follows; "I agree with Sir H. Halford that about 1600 ft. per sec. may be called the lowest express rate, which I find will require, in usual bores, and usual length of barrel, about 1 of powder to 4 of lead (by weight)". Thus introducing the concept of a minimum ratio of powder and ball to the definition.

There were other opinions on what constituted an "Express Rifle". The editor of "The Field", J.H. Walshe in his book: "The Modern Sportsmans Gun and Rifle, Vol 11" , devoted 16 pages to it! Interested parties should go to page 11.

Sadly, like most many terms in the English language, the the application of "Express" as is refers to rifles is now almost completely corrupted!

If anyone is interested, (Nitro - are you there?),I have a photo of the muzzle of an original Purdey two-groove Express rifle that I could post?


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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #13929 - 25/04/04 01:32 AM

In reply to:

If anyone is interested, (Nitro - are you there?),I have a photo of the muzzle of an original Purdey two-groove Express rifle that I could post?




Yes please post it (or send it to me if you need me to do it).

Thanks for the informative post on the origins of "Nitro Express". Some new bits in there I had not read before.



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John aka NitroX

...
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"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
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Marrakai
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: unspellable]
      #13955 - 25/04/04 10:14 PM

unspellable:
The term 'magnum' as it relates to cartridges was coined long before the .375 H&H was introduced to the gun trade.

The .500/.450 x 3 1/4 black-powder cartridge, introduced in the 1870s, was properly referred to as the .500/.450 Magnum Express. Likewise, the .577/.500 x 3 1/8 cartridge, also from the 1870s, was known as the .577/.500 Magnum Express. They got their name from a resemblance to the magnum champagne bottle which results from necking down a large-capacity straight-walled case to accept the smaller-diameter projectile.

Yet another reason why the term 'magnum' is incorrect when applied to the .458 Winchester!

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Marrakai
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470Rigby
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #13981 - 26/04/04 11:09 AM

Marrakai - Thanks for your exposition of the term "Magnum", as is relates to sporting rifle ammunition.

If I may go a step further?

John Rigby gave his definition of "Magnum Express" in reponse to a request by J.H. Walsh ("Stonehenge"), editor of "The Field", and subsequently published in "Modern Sportsmans Gun & Rifle", in 1882, as;

"Those rifles which carry bullets heavier than 400gr. and fulfill other conditions might be called Magnum Express".

While, the concept of the early "magnums" bottle-neck shape being similar to a champagne bottle may explain the origin of it's use in this context, I'm sure you will agree that the English Gun Trade were not long in deviating from Rigby's definition.

Paradoxically, it was probably Rigby himself that first stepped outside his own definition by using the term for modern high velocity Nitro cartidges with his introduction of the .350 Rigby Magnum in 1908, thus pre-dating Hollands use of the term for their .375 Magnum by about 4 years, closely followed by Westley Richards (.425 Westley Richards Magnum in 1909, Gibbs (.256Gibbs Magnum in 1913), Jeffery (.303 Magnum in 1919).

Holland's, being the superlative marketers they were, simply applied the term to everything they developed.

Perhaps Winchesters' use of the term "magnum", is in fact more in line with Rigby's original definition, by virtue of it's bullet weight rather than it's shape?


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Marrakai
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #13988 - 26/04/04 12:59 PM

470R, surely you will have noticed that all those cartridges you listed as 'Magnum Express', viz. .350 Rigby Magnum, .425 Westley Richards Magnum, .256 Gibbs Magnum, Jeffery's .303 Magnum, are all bottle-neck cartridges resembling the magnum champagne bottle as per the original definition. It looks more like Rigby's later definition may be the one which has deviated from the original by invoking a minimum bullet weight. I chuckle at the thought of the .577 Snider Magnum! Perhaps Rigby's response to Stonehenge was quoted out-of-context by the press (wouldn't be the first time!), or perhaps the bottle-shape was one of the "other conditions" required to be fulfilled.

In any case, I can't see how describing bottle-necked high-velocity cartridges as 'Magnum Express' is somehow deviating from the original definition.

If you can think of a straight-walled case properly referred to as a 'Magnum' by the Brits, please chalk it up. Otherwise, we must continue to regard this as another American corruption when applied to the .458.


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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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470Rigby
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #13994 - 26/04/04 04:25 PM

Marrakai - Oh dear, here we go again - more 'tit for tat'!

Perhaps I'm naive, but I tend to think Rigby's contemporary views can be accorded some weight!

Please understand, I don't discount the 'bottle shape theory'; I would just like to see some some documentary evidence that it was part of the 'other conditions', or that it was the only condition to be met to qualify as a 'magnum'.

If the latter, the term could be applied to literally thousands of cartridge designs. How does '.255 Jeffery Rook Magnum' sound?

On the other hand, there being a high level of classical scholarship around back then, perhaps somebody balked at the prospect of calling a cartridge something like 500/450 'Big' Express and resorted to their Latin dictionary for a more catchy word and came up with 'magnum'?

Afterall, it was just a longer version of the 500/450 No.1 Express, which also happened to be a bottle-neck. I wonder why they didn't apply the term to that?

Well, I guess all this is just conjecture, and without hard evidence, or a time capsule to go back in time to check it out, we will just have to agree to disagree!

The other members will just have to make up their own minds?



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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #13998 - 26/04/04 05:01 PM

In reply to:

Magnum Express. They got their name from a resemblance to the magnum champagne bottle




Ah Ha!

I knew there was some reason I like both wine and NE cartridges. Perfect.

Would also the 'popping of the cork' out of a champagne bottle also have some resemblance to firing a large round nosed bullet out of a cartridge (?).

PS I carefully ease champagne corks out with my thumb over the top so as to get all the wine into the glasses .

PPS Sorry to interrupt your verbal discourses. In amongst it all many of us learn things from the two of you.



--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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Marrakai
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14011 - 27/04/04 12:11 AM

Well, I'm almost loath to post again, but here goes:

"Those rifles which carry bullets heavier than 400gr. and fulfill other conditions might be called Magnum Express".

So just how much weight should be accorded to Rigby's contemporary view?

At the time of his response to Stonehenge (1882?), there were only two cartridges formally carrying the name "Magnum Express". They were the .500/.450 x 3 1/4 and the .577/.500 x 3 1/8 (check Hoyem to verify this). One of the two (the latter) carried a bullet over 400 grains, the other was loaded with a 325gr or 365gr bullet. So perhaps Rigby was half right??? (...or half wrong!). Put simply, his bullet weight definition was not supported by the cartridge nomenclature of the day (or since!).

Whether or not someone is 'naive' for believing a published opinion over the facts is not my call.

In a more modern context, Burrard has something to add to the Magnum definition. In his fourth edition of 'Notes on Sporting Rifles' published in the 1950s, he encourages us to ignore the old black-powder definitions, since we all now live in the nitro age, and goes on to define a Magnum cartridge as one which achieves a muzzle velocity of over 2500 fps in at least one of its factory loadings.

Admittedly, its yet another British definition, against which the .458 still doesn't qualify!!

Regarding the champagne bottle definition, I certainly didn't pluck it out of the air. To quote a prominent poster on this board, "I remember reading this years ago, 'somewhere'!", "Unfortunately, I can't remember the original reference", "Now, all I've got to do is remember where I read that!", "Some years back, I read an article...", "Somewhere, I seem to recall.... Can't remember whether it was Gough Thomas or Burrard?", "Some day when I've got nothing better to do for a couple of weeks, I might try and dig it out." When I do come across it again I'll certainly post it here.

...and just to add a little to AlaskanPH's original query, no-one has yet mentioned that the 'Nitro' in 'Nitro Express' comes from the two main active components of the then-new double-based smokeless powder (specifically cordite), being nitro-cellulose and nitro-glycerine.

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Marrakai
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NitroXAdministrator
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14012 - 27/04/04 12:37 AM

In reply to:

If anyone is interested, (Nitro - are you there?),I have a photo of the muzzle of an original Purdey two-groove Express rifle that I could post?






--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"


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470Rigby
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: NitroX]
      #14045 - 27/04/04 05:51 PM

Nitro - How are you on Magnum Ice Creams??

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470Rigby
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #14046 - 27/04/04 05:56 PM

Marrakai – Frustrating isn’t it? You remember reading something, somewhere? Or somebody told you something, but who? When? Where?

Then some nitpicker takes you to task for repeating it and demand’s to see documented evidence, and you just can’t remember who/where/when, and if you do down the track, the moment is lost!

Well, this is just the Internet remember, you’re not submitting an article on cutting-edge medical research to ‘Lancet’, or some such, so don’t take things so much to heart. There is room here for some divergence of opinion!

Anyway, just as I thought we had set course for an explanation of the ORIGINAL use of the word ‘Magnum’, you change tack and introduce Burrard’s 1953 definition!

Actually, in earlier editions of his book, Burrard subscribed to older notions of cartridge terminology, but as he notes in the 1953 edition, had to ‘recast’ them to reflect the fact that Black Powder was by then obsolete.

Must correct you on one small point though! Burrard agonised over what ‘Class’ the .303 British should be included in, and hedged his bets by deciding to make an exception to his principle of treating a ‘rifle’ as a ‘magnum’ so long as it could fire one bullet with a M.V. of 2500 f.p.s and over, and decided to include the 150 gr. load in his “Magnum Small Bore” grouping because it falls into his M.V. minimum, and puts the heavier bullet weight versions (174 to 215 gr.) into his non-magnum “Small Bore” class!

This makes a mockery of the notion of making M.V. the sole determinant of what is a ‘Magnum’!

In the modern context, I tend to go along (to some extent) with ‘unspellable’ in his original post. I reckon the term should be applied to ‘bigger’ (read ‘magnumer’ sic.) versions of something that preceded it; an ‘improved’ version if you will.

Whether that applies to case length/powder capacity/powder efficiency/velocity/bullet weight/neck length/body taper/head size or some combination of two or more of these can be left to the imagination of the inventor or his Marketing Department.

That would make cartridges such as your two old ‘blackies’ legitimate magnums, as well as rounds like .303 Magnum, .350 Rigby Magnum, .256 Gibbs Magnum, .375 Flanged Magnum, etc; even .222 Remington Magnum!

I don’t really hold a candle for Winchesters’ .458, but I guess it would please you to know that it doesn’t qualify as a ‘magnum’ on this basis anyway.

Maybe, that title should have been reserved for Jack Lott’s masterpiece?

There I go again! Just realised I’ve upset you again! It’s a effing straight case!


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Marrakai
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14053 - 27/04/04 11:46 PM

There you go again, all right!
Now you've re-named the .458 Lott!!!

Anyone else finding this too tedious to persue?

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Marrakai
When the bull drops, the bullshit stops!
--------------------------------
www.marrakai-adventure.com.au


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mickey
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: Marrakai]
      #14054 - 28/04/04 12:10 AM

Actually, I have found it very interesting. While you two may not agree you both are supplying points of view that could, might be accurate.

Question though to 470Rigby. Which would be the Magnum, the .222 Remington or the .223?

I think that since no one else seems to agree on what the term means that we could provide the defintion. Who knows, in 50 to 100 years maybe some erudite scholar of antiquites and obsolete powder driven weapons will quote 'NitroExpress.com as the ultimate authority on the derivation of the term. Either that or it will be credited to a TV show.



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Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.


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AlaskanPH
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: AlaskanPH]
      #14064 - 28/04/04 01:40 AM

Well, I never imagined that my original, simple question would open such a discourse but I am glad it has, as I am learning a great deal of history and appreciate it. Thank you to all for your informative responses.

I leave in a few hours to catch the plane for the beginning of my spring brown bear season and thus will not be able to visit this forum again for about a month but I look forward to "tunning in" when I get back!

All the best,
Alaskan PH


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470Rigby
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: mickey]
      #14085 - 28/04/04 05:35 PM

mickey - whichever looks more like a champagne bottle I guess?

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AdamTayler
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Re: NITRO ? [Re: 470Rigby]
      #14092 - 29/04/04 01:24 AM

Would not the .222 Remington Magnum be the improved (magnumized) .222 Remington?

It seems the word Magnum no longer impresses anyone so now Remington brings out the "ULTRA" magnums. Just another marketing ploy as far as I'm concerned. Who knows, maybe there will be a .470 Ultra Express in a few years.

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