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Robgunbuilder
.275 member

Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 64

30-06 Heym Crossing
#13055 - 05/04/04 03:27 PM

Ok as a respite from the .600 OK I shot my 30-06 Heym double today. I tried a bunch of loads, but at 50 yrds all crossed! I am a lefty and the gun has alot of cast-off( as it has a rt hand monte carlo), but with the scope all shots crossed at 50 yrds this included the 180 gr Remington factory ammo the gun was supposedely regulated with.. Groups were good at 1.8 inches to no more than 2.0 inches but all still crossed. I didn't try it without the scope and don't know if the gun was regulated with a scope or not!My best load was 55 grs of IMR 4831 and a Nosler 180 gr BT(probably only a 2600fps load). From these results, I asume I have to drop the velocity , am I right?-Rob

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: Robgunbuilder]
#13056 - 05/04/04 03:33 PM

Brother, I think you need to take the scope off and try for group with your irons. Most DB's are regulated with iron sights and then with the scope to match the irons. It may be a good idea to drop the velocity of your 06 a bit and see what happens there also. Hope you can iron out your problem as an 06 is a real soft shooter.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: Robgunbuilder]
#13066 - 05/04/04 10:19 PM

In reply to:

Ok as a respite from the .600 OK I shot my 30-06 Heym double today. I tried a bunch of loads, but at 50 yrds all crossed! I am a lefty and the gun has alot of cast-off( as it has a rt hand monte carlo), but with the scope all shots crossed at 50 yrds this included the 180 gr Remington factory ammo the gun was supposedely regulated with.. Groups were good at 1.8 inches to no more than 2.0 inches but all still crossed. I didn't try it without the scope and don't know if the gun was regulated with a scope or not!My best load was 55 grs of IMR 4831 and a Nosler 180 gr BT(probably only a 2600fps load). From these results, I asume I have to drop the velocity , am I right?-Rob

Rob, If the rifle is crossing the speed is too High! The bullets are exiting the barrels too soon. You didn't say if this rifle is a S/S, or O/U, but both will cross if the speed is too high. With a S/S, the composite group will usually be a little low, but the same horizonally if crossing. With an O/U, the group will be higher for the bottom barrel, and lower for the top barrel, but but both will usually be high above the POA, but in line for windage! As someone suggested, take the scope off, and try it again. If they still cross, and I suspect they will, slow it down slightly, and try it again. Much American made ammo, for Europe, is hotter, than the ammo made for this country!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

Edited by DUGABOY1 (04/01/05 01:56 AM)

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: DUGABOY1]
#13097 - 06/04/04 08:29 AM

In reply to:

Rob, If the rifle is crossing the speed is too low! The bullets are staying in the barrels too long. You didn't say if this rifle is a S/S, or O/U, but both will cross if the speed is too low.

D1,
Sorry but I don't agree with that.
If the velocity is too low and the bullets stay in the barrel too long imo this will (usually!) cause the barrels to shoot APART not crossed.

Rob, drop the load and velocity a tad and try again and yes, do try the rifle with scope removed using the irons.

I should add that not all doubles do the same things when changes to the loads are made.
I have worked with a couple of doubles where even a minor change in the load can send the barrel groups in ANY direction!
That said I have a double here that will handle major load changes with little effect on point of impact or grouping.

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: 4seventy]
#13110 - 06/04/04 11:56 AM

I guess I'll throw in my 2 cents too.

The weight of the scope may be retarding the lift and seperation of the barrels causing it to cross. Take off the scope and see how that works.

To low of pressure can cause the barrels to flip at a slower rate thus allowing the bullets to cross.

To high pressure doesn't allow the bullet to stay in the barrel as long and the bullets can cross.

Pressure that is just right can allow the bullets to cross just because they want to.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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4seventy
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: mickey]
#13113 - 06/04/04 12:16 PM

Yeah the scope sure can make a difference.
Even a change of the scope from the one the rifle was regulated with to one of a different size, shape or weight can affect things.

On a double chambered for 30-06 imo it is a HUGE mistake to regulate the barrels for the open sights.
The 30-06 double should be regulated for scope use.

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mickey
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: 4seventy]
#13114 - 06/04/04 12:24 PM

I think the smaller and lighter the rifle the higher percentage of additional weight is added by a scope. A one pound scope on a seven pound rifle will effect the regulation more than a one pound scope on an 11 pound rifle.

I think that is why scopes and other changes have more effect on smaller calibers than larger.

Lighter calibers should have the rifle regulated for the scope and not the irons.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Robgunbuilder
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Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 64

Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: mickey]
#13118 - 06/04/04 02:08 PM

I talked to Butch Searcy today and he also thought I should first try reducing the velocity. It was interesting that the gun was supposedly regulated with Remington 180 gr factory ammo and when I tried that ammo it still crossed. In fact every load I tried from 168 gr bullets to 200 gr bullets crossed more or less to the same extent. I tried six different bullet weight and powder combinations. This weekend I'll try it without the scope and see what happens and then with the best grouping load ( 180 gr Nosler Bts) I'll try speeding em up and slowing them down. Butch thinks in the end I may have to re-regulate the barrels. He explained the process in some detail and said he will walk me through it. I don't think it's beyond my capabilities and it would be a good learning experience. Worst comes to worse I'll have to re-blue the barrels . No I won't wreck it!-Rob

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NE450No2
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Reged: 10/01/03
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: Robgunbuilder]
#13133 - 06/04/04 09:57 PM

Rob
Before I did anything I would shoot it at 100 yards, and If groups were good enough to hunt with I would then shoot it at 200 yards.
With my 9,3x74R almost everything shoots close enough to the sights to hunt with at 50 yards. At 100 yards is where I seperate the good loads/groups from the bad. The loads that shot good at 100 also shot good at 200.

Also you might shoot it at twenty yards. You may find that your rifle is not "crossing" rather that it has not het "crossed". It could be that your left/right bbls will come together and then seperate as the range increases, which is why I recommend you shoot at the longer distances.
Let us know how she shoots at 100 and 200 yards.

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
Posts: 4732
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: NE450No2]
#13135 - 06/04/04 11:47 PM

Rob, have you tried "regulating loads"?

1. Choose the bullet and powder you want to use.

2. Start with the min. charge. Then load pairs of shells and work up in 1 or 2 grain increments.

For example:

180 grain Hdy, Reloader 22 powder

2 shots at 56.0 grains powder
2 shots at 57.0 grains
2 shots at 58.0 grains
2 shots at 59.0 grains

That will produce a pattern on the target that you can use to see where the barrels begin to converge. Typically the pattern will be V-shaped with the barrels moving toward convergence as the powder charge increase. POI will also drop as the powder charge increases.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: 4seventy]
#13161 - 07/04/04 08:50 AM

In reply to:

D1,
Sorry but I don't agree with that.
If the velocity is too low and the bullets stay in the barrel too long imo this will (usually!) cause the barrels to shoot APART not crossed.

I concure after thinking about it, in a side by side! Old age is getting to me, I had a birthday yesterday, and I'm still in shock!

Am now building my 68th year!

The one thing that is different about this sittuation, however, is, it is an over under, and there is no right, or left FLIP of the barrels! Both barrels rise streight up, but at different amounts on an O/U. The top barrel will normally rise more than the bottom barrel,which recoils more streight back, than the top, because the top is higher above the horrizonal, and vertical axis of the rifle, which is usually in line with the bore of the bottom barrel.

The smaller, and faster the cartridge, the more touchy the regulation will be!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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4seventy
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Reged: 07/05/03
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: DUGABOY1]
#13172 - 07/04/04 11:41 AM

Mac,
Happy Birthday for yesterday.

I hope you had a top day and that there are many more to come!

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Robgunbuilder
.275 member

Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 64

Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: 500grains]
#13399 - 13/04/04 01:31 AM

Well, I spent the weekend shooting the 30-06 Heym. I am now totally convinced it's a regulation problem. I shot it at 50 and 100 yrds with every combination of bullet weight from 150 grs to 220 grs that I could find. I tried 5 different powders and varied the velocities from 2400 to 2800 fps. The right barrel shoots dead on and at 50 yrds and both barrels will produce sub 2 inch groups at that range, but always crossing. The right barrel shoots on the left ( but to the sights, both open and scope).At 100 yrds one load shot a six shot 2.8 inch group still crossing. Most loads shoot 5 inch groups at 100 yrds with the right barrel giving a < 1.5 inch group on the left ( just to the sights) and the left barrel producing a similar group on the right but 5 inches apart. The groups are on exactly the same plane, so you can hold off 5 inches or so and shoot pretty well! Taking the scope off made no difference and shooting right handed made no difference. Interestingly, how one holds the forearm makes quite a bit of difference in accuracy. A light hold produces very good groups and a tight hold opens them up. In general, by lowering the velocity to 2500 fps, the crossing decreased, while increasing velocity made it worse. This is consistent with what Butch Searcy thought would happen. I guess I'll either have to live with it or re-regulate it. Any suggestions?-Rob

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Gibbs505
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Reged: 09/08/03
Posts: 442
Loc: BC, Canada

Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: Robgunbuilder]
#13401 - 13/04/04 02:22 AM

From what I have read, reregulating a double rifle is a time consuming and expensive process. One question, what load was the rifle origainlly regulated with?

--------------------
So I can't spell, so what?

Those who beat their swords into ploughshares, will plough for those who don't!

Those who fail to learn from history will be doomed to repeat it

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475Guy
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Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: Robgunbuilder]
#13410 - 13/04/04 03:09 AM

Rob, looks like you're gonna have to drive to Carson City to visit Lee LaBas. I'm sure he could re-regulate it for you with a minimum of fuss. He must be a decent smith if Butch Searcy recommends him for normal problems concerning DB's.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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DUGABOY1
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Reged: 02/02/03
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Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: Robgunbuilder]
#13415 - 13/04/04 03:55 AM

Rob, after reading your last post, I tend to agree with you on the re-regulating the rifle! I'd take the load, and bullet weight that shot best for individual group, and have either Lee La'Bas, or JJ at Champlin's re-regulate, at 100 yds!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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mickey
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Reged: 05/01/03
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Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: DUGABOY1]
#13434 - 13/04/04 01:02 PM

I think that it is a psychological problem. The Rifle obviously knows it should be chambered for a rimmed cartridge and has such low self esteem that it cannot shoot accurately.

While having it re-regulated , I think that it should be recambered also, to a 30 Blaser. This would work nicely and improve the attitude of the Rifle immensely.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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luv2safari
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Reged: 09/11/03
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: mickey]
#13441 - 13/04/04 02:32 PM

Now...Now...Mickey!

I have to jump in and say that my Merkel 9,3x74r (properly rimmed) o/u tends to cross a bit when I shoot a hotter 250 gr ballistic tip. It does OK with S&B factory 285 gr loads. I have a box of older RWS I have not yet tried in it. The Norma 286 gr loads move laterally the same direction as my 250 hand loads, but not nearly as much. I don't have the 9,3 barrels scoped.

Everything realy moves around all over as the barrels heat up!!! Could this be part of the problem?

DB1 once suggested using canned air to cool the barrels, and I have been using cheap starting fluid to do the same with great success...but take the wood off...!!!

luv2

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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Robgunbuilder
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Reged: 18/02/04
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: luv2safari]
#13455 - 14/04/04 01:37 AM

The problem I'm having is the gun is actually quite accurate. Both barrels shoot very tight groups < 1.5 inches at 100 yrds both 5 inches apart and crossing. The right barrel shoots perfectly to both the open sights and the scope(of course). It's the left that seems more problematic. The groups are perfectly centered horizontally. The question is have it re-regulated abd maybe lose this accuracy and have to re-blue the barrels as a result or simply learn to deal with it. Holding off about 5 inches at 100 yrds really isn't much of a problem( heck, I wobble that much typically offhand) and I doubt I'll ever be shooting this gun at game much beyond that range anyway. I can easily keep all shots on a pie plate at 100 yrds offhand with it as it is. What do you guys think?-Rob

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500grains
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: Robgunbuilder]
#13458 - 14/04/04 02:33 AM

re-regulate.

I would drive me crazy to have a rifle acting like that.

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NE450No2
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: Robgunbuilder]
#13459 - 14/04/04 02:52 AM

Rob
If you can hit a pie plate with it off hand at 100 yards, I would leave it as is. I would shoot it at 200 yards and see where the right and left bbls hit.

What load shot the 2.8" six shot group? That sounds pretty good at 100 for a double rifle to me.
Also you could adjust your scope so that the rounds from the left bbl hit 2.5" to the right thus the rounds from the right bbl would hit 2.5" left. This in effect would "center" your group to the crosshairs. This way the shots from either bbl would only be off 2.5" at 100 yards.

Still, I would like to see the 200 yards results before re-regulating.

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4seventy
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: Robgunbuilder]
#13464 - 14/04/04 08:32 AM

In reply to:

The right barrel shoots perfectly to both the open sights and the scope(of course). It's the left that seems more problematic.

The left barrel is not the problem.
The rifle is shooting seperate (crossed) groups and someone has aligned the sights to the right barrel.
What's happening is that the right barrel is shooting left of center and the left barrel is shooting right of center so in fact both barrels are equally "problematic".

In reply to:

The question is have it re-regulated and maybe lose this accuracy

If done properly re-regulation will not affect the accuracy of the individual barrel groups in any way but will bring the two groups together which will achieve a huge improvement in the overall accuracy of the rifle.

In reply to:

and have to re-blue the barrels as a result

Re-regulating can be done on some doubles with little damage to the blue and I have done several that way.
If the rifle is a show piece it will need to be reblued but if it is to be used in the field, and the regulator knows his job, it is possible to avoid a reblue.
Much depends on the construction of the barrels regarding how the foresight ramp is attached.(and other things)

If you are not 100% certain that you can do the job correctly yourself, give the gun to someone who has proven that they can.
Anyone can put flame to a barrel set and watch the solder melt and hit the floor!
It's getting all the solder/wedge/barrels/ribs/sights back where they should be and getting the barrels to shoot together and having a strong neat job at the end which makes the difference between a regulator and a lawn mower mechanic!

And definately regulate to the scope not the irons on a rifle of that caliber.

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Daydreamer
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Reged: 31/01/04
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: 4seventy]
#13502 - 14/04/04 10:56 PM

Rob

Did you check the crowns on the barrels?

Did you notice any differences in triggers (pull, travel, weight) between the front and rear trigger?
Did you clean the action (springs etc...)

Has the rifle been restocked or has it got a longer pad?

Has the rifle been regulated with the scope mount / current scope on at the factory?

Just a few thoughts....

Franz

--------------------
Franz A. Holzer

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Robgunbuilder
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Reged: 18/02/04
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: Daydreamer]
#13523 - 15/04/04 01:34 PM

I think I will just have to re-regulate it! There is no mechanical flaw in the crown that I can detect and the trigger pulls are about the same. The gun crosses when you use the right set trigger or not. It's interesting, as the gun comes with a factory target that shows a 1 inch group at 100 mtrs. Probably all shot with the right barrel!!!The gun is a Heym 88B sxs double fitted with claw mounts and a nice 1.1-4X variable german scope. While I bought it used, I know who owned it and I don't think he ever put a box of shells thru it. I also know he probably never knew it crossed as he's not much of a shot and probably was satisfied with shooting it at 50 yrds. The gun is totally the way it came from the factory as far as I know. It's basically mint and based on the blueing condition has never been touched. I ought to know as I've reblued enough guns in my time.Butch Searcy described the re regulation procedure to me and also stated that I might get away without having to re-blue. That would be very nice as the gun really is very nice.-Rob .

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shatter
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: Robgunbuilder]
#23318 - 04/01/05 12:20 AM

... I know, it's an old thread, but I really would like to hear the outcome. Anybody knows?

I mean, a Heym 88B is a 6000 Euro gun and comes from the factory regulated anyway you want it - scope or no scope. One inch groups on a hundred meters are normal to it ... and now an Unexperienced tries to re-regulate it himself ...

Curious,

Joachim

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500grains
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Reged: 16/02/04
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: shatter]
#23345 - 04/01/05 03:37 AM

shatter,

I do not think the owner of the Heym was thinking of re-regulating it himself; he had a particular double maker in mind for doing the re-regulation. But as far as I know the gun today remains in its original condition with no modifications. If you want to buy it, just email the owner and he might be interested.....

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shatter
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Re: 30-06 Heym Crossing [Re: 500grains]
#23348 - 04/01/05 03:45 AM

To tell the simple truth: buying that Heym 80B wasted all my gun-related assets for quite a while ... 5000 Eurons for the gun, 1700 for the scope (Zeiss 2.5-10x50 Variopoint), 600 for the mount (SEM) ... and an Heym 88 ist still even MORE valuable. Also, IF I would buy anotherone, it would be 375 Flanged or bigger.

However, re-regulation the '88 shouldn't be a problem at all ...

Thanx Anyway,

Joachim

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