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Dark_Helmet
.333 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA

450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy??
#12473 - 26/03/04 07:41 AM

ok, I've identified a group of affordable (for us) doubles in a variety of chamberings.

MOST of them are either 470 or 450 3-1/4 (I think)

I don't know squat about the different rounds, so someone help me, please!!!

maybe just a quick ordering of weak-to-strong and which are the easiest to find ammunition and/or bullets for...

thanks!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

Edited by dasMafia (27/03/04 04:44 AM)

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475Guy
.400 member

Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US

Re: Buying ammo for doubles... [Re: Dark_Helmet]
#12474 - 26/03/04 08:07 AM

dm, go to www.african-hunter.com and go to Safari Archives and you'll find an article on the 450 3 1/4 which is also known as the 450 NE. Ray and NE450 have and have shot both mentioned calibers and rifles. The 470 was a replacement round when the Empire outlawed 45 calibers in India way back when they thought that eliminating the round would prevent the insurgents from trying to reload using captured guns and ammunition. The 470 shoots a 500 gr, .475" bullet at about the same velocity as the 450 at around 2130 +/-. I don't remember where I've seen an article on the 470 NE but you could probably do a google search.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA

Re: Buying ammo for doubles... [Re: 475Guy]
#12476 - 26/03/04 08:33 AM

bah... everything is filtered from teh office... I'll have to look some more when I get home.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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Scartozi
.275 member

Reged: 14/03/04
Posts: 63
Loc: Columbus Ohio, USA

Re: Buying ammo for doubles... [Re: Dark_Helmet]
#12482 - 26/03/04 09:56 AM

I don't know if this helps but I know that the 470ne, 450 Akley, and 458 Lott are pretty similar as far as ballistics, stopping power...ect. However, price and availability on ammo is a different story. I haven't researched 470ne ammo but I do know that Cabella's has it for 215.00 dollars a box.....20 rounds that is. That 458 lott ammo for 56 bucks isn't looking so bad

I just wish that they made an affordable double rifle in 458 lott, it would be a lot cheeper to shoot!!!

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: Buying ammo for doubles... [Re: Scartozi]
#12485 - 26/03/04 10:15 AM

All of the 470 class are so close to equal as to be not worth mentioning. The 470 has the advantage of Federal loading for it. That is if your rifle shoots the Federal. Double Rifle ownership requires reloading, it is the only way to do it.

I like the 450 3 1/4 because of the slimness of the action compared to the others.

A 458 Lott would not be a good idea as Doubles do not do well with rimless cases. No one has ever come up with a fool proof ejector system for one and the pressure is usually quite a bit higher.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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Robgunbuilder
.275 member

Reged: 18/02/04
Posts: 64

Re: Buying ammo for doubles... [Re: mickey]
#12523 - 26/03/04 04:09 PM

The 470NE operates at about 37Kpsi and will drive a 500 gr bullet to 2150fps. The 450 ackley will drive a 500 gr bullet to over 2400fps and the 458 Lott will do about 2300fps with the same bullet weight. Both the 450 Ackley and 458 Lott operate at 55-60Kpsi and thus are unsuitable for nearly all double rifles. the 470NE is a rimmed case designed for double extraction and the Ackley and Lott are belted mags derived from the .375 H&h case. Both the Lott and Ackley offer a tremendous increase in performance over the 470NE ( although this cartridge has a tremendous reputation).-Rob

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luv2safari
.400 member

Reged: 09/11/03
Posts: 1401
Loc: United States

Re: Buying ammo for doubles... [Re: Dark_Helmet]
#12524 - 26/03/04 04:25 PM

The 470 might be your best bet here in the US. Any sporting goods store can order you some Federal ammo.

All you have to do is get used to $10.00 per jerk of the trigger...

--------------------
Hunt with Class and Classics

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA

Re: Buying ammo for doubles... [Re: luv2safari]
#12552 - 27/03/04 04:43 AM

as strange as it sounds, that is a huge bonus... the ability to just buy ammo, if needed, is quite powerful. that's why I have a 35 Whelen, you can actually buy decent ammunition for it... I don't particularly like the loads they use, but its a whole lot better than "hosed"

thanks guys, I'd kinda been leaning toward the 470, but this conversation has fairly well cemented that wish.

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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AfricanHunter
.275 member

Reged: 01/02/04
Posts: 60
Loc: Nebraska, USA

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
#12610 - 27/03/04 10:58 PM

I think all the facts are laid out. Stay away from the belted, although I have had a number of double in rimless and belted in the past and never had a problem.

However, as pointed out if you expect to shoot it much you will be reloading for the double. Therefore, I have to depart the majority and go with the .450 x 3.25 of the two.

Reasons: Easy to reload. Wider selection of bullets to choose from and to play with for lighter weights if desired. Cast bullets work good and don't require a custom mold, a lot of choices. It did the job in 1898 on anything standing in its way and still will. At $10.00 a pop you can buy Westley Richards or Kynoch ammo. The rifle will had an trimmer profile and handle great as well as most likely to weigh less if that matters. If nostalgia is important, it was there first!

Just my opinion

Leroy

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NitroX
.700 member

Reged: 25/12/02
Posts: 39247
Loc: Barossa Valley, South Australi...

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: AfricanHunter]
#12611 - 27/03/04 11:08 PM

I agree, go for the .450 3 1/4 NE.

Don't be a sheep in the flock. Be different.

--------------------
John aka NitroX

...
Govt get out of our lives NOW!
"I love the smell of cordite in the morning."
"A Sharp spear needs no polish"

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: AfricanHunter]
#12629 - 28/03/04 02:56 AM

hello leroy!

thanks so much for the input (you too nitro!), I didn't know WR had ammunition for the 450, and yes, bullet selection is infinitely better, I am sure.

It seems to me that we'll just have to operate on a "best thing we can find" level, and take whatever comes.

Leroy, would love to go out to the range with you sometime to get a feel for some of the doubles you have... if your interested/willing. I mentioned a few of the guns in your collection to my dad and his interested was peaked to say the least...

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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475Guy
.400 member

Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
#12635 - 28/03/04 03:17 AM

Either way, brother, it is a reloading proposition. 458 bullets are infinitely cheaper and easier to get than 475 bullets. It's just that Federal don't make them in 450NE, that's all. Whatever you choose to do, you won't lose and will probably just go nuts trying to reload enough to get the range time.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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atkinson6
.375 member

Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: 475Guy]
#12648 - 28/03/04 05:02 AM

DasMafia,
WR ammo is so expensive its plumb scary and they sell in 5 paks....

I love the 450-400-3" and 3-1/4", I think I like the 3" best by a good deal...They are the balistic equal of each other...

One needs to shoot the .470 BEFORE buying one, only on the internet can everyone handle the fierce recoil of the 470..the 450-400 is worlds milder in recoil and will kill anything that you shoot with it..

If you order a Searcy it will come regulated with a 500 gr. bullet at 2240 FPS with 108 grs. of IMR-4831 and it kicks like hell warmed over...

I am working on finding a load of 2000 FPS for mine as we speak..My Bursitas is acting up from shooting it...All English guns work on about 2000 FPS and Fed factory is 2000 FPS...

You can get a PH model 450-400, 470, 500-416 ( a nice caliber equal to the 416 Rem or Rigby) or in 500 N.E. even bigger..for about what a English 450-400 costs and it will be a better hunting/using rifle..

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475Guy
.400 member

Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: atkinson6]
#12654 - 28/03/04 05:32 AM

Aw, Ray, the 470 don't kick that bad. Compared to the Lott, it is a pussycat.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: 475Guy]
#12658 - 28/03/04 06:15 AM

I haven't seen a 450-400 for sale... which makes buying one a little tough! as for the rest, for sure nothing bigger than the 470... just not going to go there!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

Post Extras:

mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
#12666 - 28/03/04 07:42 AM

Here is a 450 3 1/4. I bought this about a year ago for $11,000. It shoots 3/8" at 50 yards. I showed the target earlier. If you know where to look these are around..

A 400 is a nice rifle as has been stated. My 400 3 1/4 Alex henry and my 400 3" Jeffery were both bought for under $7000 and both are very fine rifles. The 400 were the most common of the English Rifles and are available almost everywhere. Check the gun dealers who deal in Doubles, everyone has at least one.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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AfricanHunter
.275 member

Reged: 01/02/04
Posts: 60
Loc: Nebraska, USA

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: atkinson6]
#12667 - 28/03/04 07:48 AM

Ray, unless WR got generous or my old style math is bad the last .500's I got (last summer) were $50.00/5 soft and $55.00/5 solids. .450's and .470's are less. I see prices that high for Feds. on a per round basis, but they can be bought for a little less. I know D&R sports has softs at around $165/20 and solids around $185. If you buy 10 boxes you get a discount! In the store here I saw around $210 and change. Either one will drive you to the handloading bench.

The .450/400" are sure nice to shoot. And have killed anything for longer than we are old! You are right on there. IMO far better than .375, BUT for what? Plains game, no I wouldn't buy that. For DG, you bet!

.450/400's seemed to be readily available a couple of years ago, but scarce now. However, they can be had, they are around. I know where there is or was anyway 3 of them.

Regards,

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: AfricanHunter]
#12700 - 28/03/04 04:43 PM

Leroy, I'd appreciate any pointers on where those 3 400s were...

thanks again!

I'm just glad its not my money on this one!!! (although I am going to build/have built a 400H&H or similar bolt gun sometime soon...) I just want my whelen back from the smith!!!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

Post Extras:

Dark_Helmet
.333 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: mickey]
#12701 - 28/03/04 04:44 PM

In reply to:

My 400 3 1/4 Alex henry and my 400 3" Jeffery were both bought for under $7000 and both are very fine rifles.

interested in selling one???

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
#12727 - 29/03/04 03:49 AM

dasMafia

Maybe the 400 3". It is redundant now that I have the Alex Henry. It would be a tad more than what I paid for it though.

It is as near to 100% as you can get for a used rifle. I would post a picture but for some reason Image Station doesn't seem to work here right now.

PM me if you are interested.

--------------------
Lovu Zdar
Mick

A Man of Pleasure, Enterprise, Wit and Spirit Rare Books, Big Game Hunting, English Rifles, Fishing, Explosives, Chauvinism, Insensitivity, Public Drunkenness and Sloth, Champion of Lost and Unpopular Causes.

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475Guy
.400 member

Reged: 22/08/03
Posts: 1088
Loc: Kali, US

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: Dark_Helmet]
#12732 - 29/03/04 04:52 AM

Hey, DM, looks like you're going to get an offer that you can't refuse. If you pick it up, post some pics and targets.

--------------------
Lo do they call to me,
They bid me take my place among
them in the Halls of Valhalla,
Where the brave may live forever.

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atkinson6
.375 member

Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: 475Guy]
#12738 - 29/03/04 07:25 AM

I would jump on Mickeys deal before he changes his mind and he already has the loads worked up...All you got to do is shoot it...I have delt with him before, in fact bought one of the best 450-400 through him that I have owned, and I give him a thumbs up...I just wish I had my 375 H&H by H&H back....

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4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: NitroX]
#12743 - 29/03/04 07:48 AM

In reply to:

Don't be a sheep in the flock. Be different.

Hey watch it Nitro!
Baaaa Baaaa

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mickey
.416 member

Reged: 05/01/03
Posts: 4647
Loc: Pend Oreille Valley, Idaho

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: atkinson6]
#12760 - 29/03/04 02:31 PM

Ray

I appreciate the kind words. By the way that .375 is going to shoot a Brown Bear this Spring.

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Dark_Helmet
.333 member

Reged: 09/01/04
Posts: 399
Loc: Lincoln, Nebraska, USA

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: mickey]
#12777 - 30/03/04 01:56 AM

Mickey, I'll have to discuss it with the "boss." I'm trying to pu tthe deposit down on a 2005 Namibia hunt this week or next, so cash is a bit short at the moment... however, you can be sure that I'll be thinking about it in a good degree of earnest!

--------------------
_________________________________________________________________
When someone says a rifle is "ugly," what they really mean is "push feed."

-me

(long live the Mauser 98!)

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bonanza
.400 member

Reged: 17/05/04
Posts: 2335
Loc: South Carolina

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: atkinson6]
#16154 - 24/06/04 07:02 AM

One needs to shoot the .470 BEFORE buying one, only on the internet can everyone handle the fierce recoil of the 470..the 450-400 is worlds milder in recoil and will kill anything that you shoot with it..

I did. There was no way I was going to put up with that punishment just to own and shoot a double. I went with the 375 H&H and it's a joy to shoot. However, I wish the 450/400 was available in a new merkel.

--------------------

"Speak Precisely" G. Gordon Liddy.

"Life is absurd, chaotic and we must define its purpose with our actions" Abert Camus

"I''m the dude playing a dude disguised as another dude."

"Yo! Mr. White"

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atkinson6
.375 member

Reged: 26/01/04
Posts: 678
Loc: Idaho

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: bonanza]
#16180 - 25/06/04 12:26 PM

As to recoil between the 470 and 450-400 thats nothing much to quible about...Simply load the 470 down to 2000 FPS and it recoils about like a 450-400, but it still kills a lot better...I have used them both on big game in Africa and I finally settled on a .470 by Searcy and darn glad I did, its the best shooting double I have ever owned and it shoots about everything to the same POI....

Butch will be glad to make you a PH model in 470 or 450-400 for about $9500.

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Peterb
.333 member

Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 288

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: atkinson6]
#16476 - 07/07/04 02:49 PM

Ray, I had an 8 pound 458 and with full factory 510 grain loads, I considered the recoil mild. Now the 470 has about the same energy with a bit less velocity. My new Searcy (about 2 months away now) at ten pounds certainly cannot be as potent as the 8 pound 458. While not wussy, it cannot be as bad as you suggest.

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4seventy
Sponsor

Reged: 07/05/03
Posts: 2210
Loc: Queensland Australia

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: Peterb]
#16482 - 07/07/04 06:22 PM

Welcome Peterb.
Don't get caught up with paper balistics.
The 458 at 2100 and 8 pounds is a pussy compared to a 470 at 2100 at anything under 10 pounds!
The 458 uses a puny 70 grains or so of medium powder and the 470 is often loaded with 105 grains or so of slow powder.
The result is a big difference in felt recoil despite the fact that the external balistics are similar.

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Peterb
.333 member

Reged: 07/07/04
Posts: 288

Re: 450 3.25 or 470NE... which one to buy?? [Re: 4seventy]
#16504 - 08/07/04 11:47 AM

I have always found that with guns of equal energy, the higher velocity gun had more felt recoil. The 470 does have 30 grains more exiting the barrel so that is a fair point. I have always found that faster powderskick more. Anyways, I'll bow to your experience until I shoot it for myself. In any event, I know it won't be close to my (ex) 460 or my 378 which lacked a muzzle break. Now the 460 was pretty vicious and the lightweight 378 was purely painful.

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