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500grains
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Your preference - new best quality or vintage?
      #120264 - 04/12/08 04:45 AM

New guns have strong steel. Old guns carry some nostalgia and romance with them.

Here's a nice 2003 Westley Richards droplock .500NE:


And here's a 1904 H&H in 500/450.



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tinker
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: 500grains]
      #120270 - 04/12/08 05:23 AM

I tend to like early cartridge rifles, in obsolete calibers!

Given the choice between two otherwise unknown examples of the same caliber/type/finish/condition, if it were a gift and I were to be shooting it I'd take the modern piece built with modern materials.

When looking at individal examples, I look at the big picture. Action type, caliber, condition, budget...

For instance, I like the look and feel of a back or island action JonesUL type hammer rifle. Although there are some amazing examples of relatively recent modern rifles built on that pattern, the price..!

Also I do go for the historical importance, note the pinfire rifles I own and shoot -- they're quite rare, and the ones I have are nice examples of period high grade sporting rifles. From time to time I'll ponder the finish wear patterns, the nicks and dings, and wonder where they've been and how the world has changed around them over the past century and a half.



So it's subjective.
Put two as-new Holland and Holland 500-450 best sidelock rifles in front of me, both of essentially identical style and trim, ask me to take the one I'd take as a gift - you'll see me take the one that was built with modern materials.

It is not likely that I will be stuffing one in my safe any time soon though...



Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: 500grains]
      #120271 - 04/12/08 05:24 AM

I looked at the Westley Richards on Champlin's website some time back. It looks like the barrels are sleeved, even though they look like shoe lump construction. I don't think they were built from the ground up on the rebuild.

According to the description, it's a rebuilt gun - originally a .30-06. Must have been one huge .30-06.

I would have a hard time getting excited about those sleeved barrels.

Curl

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470evans
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120273 - 04/12/08 05:39 AM

I'm a sucker for the Vintage guns as long as they haven't been abused or butchered by a "gunsmith".
I've tried to warm up to the modern guns but I just can't. The older guns have a feel that I enjoy. Plus it's great to think about all the places they have been.


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gatsby
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: 500grains]
      #120278 - 04/12/08 06:14 AM

If we are talking in generalities and not comparing two specific guns, I would take the vintage gun every time. Finding and researching the vintage guns is really my only reason for collecting.

--------------------
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rigbymauser
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: gatsby]
      #120279 - 04/12/08 06:27 AM

I am in for the vintage...pre WW1...

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CowboyCS
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #120280 - 04/12/08 06:38 AM

In my case I really can't afford to indulge my fantasies of what I would like to own, so I buy what I can afford which usually means considerably "used". It still needs to be a safely functional firearm, but the hunting with it means more to me than the owning it. If I had an unlimited budget to fulfill all my fantasies, I would buy everyone, new or vintage that I fancied.

C

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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120286 - 04/12/08 09:00 AM

Quote:

I looked at the Westley Richards on Champlin's website some time back. It looks like the barrels are sleeved, even though they look like shoe lump construction. I don't think they were built from the ground up on the rebuild.

According to the description, it's a rebuilt gun - originally a .30-06. Must have been one huge .30-06.

I would have a hard time getting excited about those sleeved barrels.

Curl




Curl,

The barrels need a trip to John Roberts in England or one of the good barrel guys here for TIG welding the seams. Then good buffing and a re-black with touched up engraving and you wouldn't know the barrels were sleeved. As it is, the seams just don't cut it, and attempting to hide them with that engraving is worse.

JPK


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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120288 - 04/12/08 09:17 AM

I am not a true collector, though I like very nice rifles and shotguns, and I'm a heck of a lot more interested in using my double rifles and shotguns for the purpose they were made for than collecting them for its own merit.

So, I favor newer guns since they are ussually in better condition, closer to ready to hunt and with fewer issues. However, I would find a fine vintage rifle that is in great condition with no serious issues, fit and ready to hunt, in the correct weight range for a cartidge range I want very attractive. Those vintage rifles that meet my criteria tend to be damned, damned expensive, while high quality new rifles are just damned expensive.

JPK


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Bramble
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120290 - 04/12/08 09:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I looked at the Westley Richards on Champlin's website some time back. It looks like the barrels are sleeved, even though they look like shoe lump construction. I don't think they were built from the ground up on the rebuild.

According to the description, it's a rebuilt gun - originally a .30-06. Must have been one huge .30-06.

I would have a hard time getting excited about those sleeved barrels.

Curl




Curl,

The barrels need a trip to John Roberts in England or one of the good barrel guys here for TIG welding the seams. Then good buffing and a re-black with touched up engraving and you wouldn't know the barrels were sleeved. As it is, the seams just don't cut it, and attempting to hide them with that engraving is worse.

JPK




JPK

Can you tell me how that would work please.

If one Tig'ed at that point on the barrel, one would have to anneal, normalise and reharden the barrels.
This would melt all of the soft solder and possibly the brazing between the chopper lumps depending on the melt/re-melt threshold.
This would require the whole barrel set needing to be remade.
To do less than that, especially if the replacments were 4140 as many are, would leave a big question mark regarding embrittlement and or a soft spot dependent on heat propagation.

Are you saying that this is a common practice ?

Regards


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Caprivi
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: Bramble]
      #120294 - 04/12/08 11:21 AM

New, old, Vintage, Best, No. 2, mint, rough, "hunting used", handling marks, etc........I will take the Westley Richards Drop Lock everytime......Everytime.


I would assume that these 2 are being compared as they are similar priced and in your price range. All good things. The H&H is a very nicely presented gun. The stock with out cheek rest is cast for a left hend shooter and the other is a bit ( a lot) short for LOP. Both will cost a bit to do something about. The red-dot rear sight is a bit sacreligous as well.

The Westley is a very nice "using" gun. A scoped 300 coupled with a 500 covers my 2 favorite calibers. Sleeved barrels not withstanding it seems to be priced very high to me. This is not a 2003 gun, it was build in 1924 and refurbished in '03.

If they where the same or close in price then it would be a easier choice.

This is indeed all subjective and a great exercise, thanks for sharing.

--------------------
To live life as it is handed to me from God


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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: Bramble]
      #120308 - 04/12/08 03:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

I looked at the Westley Richards on Champlin's website some time back. It looks like the barrels are sleeved, even though they look like shoe lump construction. I don't think they were built from the ground up on the rebuild.

According to the description, it's a rebuilt gun - originally a .30-06. Must have been one huge .30-06.

I would have a hard time getting excited about those sleeved barrels.

Curl




Curl,

The barrels need a trip to John Roberts in England or one of the good barrel guys here for TIG welding the seams. Then good buffing and a re-black with touched up engraving and you wouldn't know the barrels were sleeved. As it is, the seams just don't cut it, and attempting to hide them with that engraving is worse.

JPK




JPK

Can you tell me how that would work please.

If one Tig'ed at that point on the barrel, one would have to anneal, normalise and reharden the barrels.
This would melt all of the soft solder and possibly the brazing between the chopper lumps depending on the melt/re-melt threshold.
This would require the whole barrel set needing to be remade.
To do less than that, especially if the replacments were 4140 as many are, would leave a big question mark regarding embrittlement and or a soft spot dependent on heat propagation.

Are you saying that this is a common practice ?

Regards




I have to defer to John Foster and Company, http://www.johnfostergunmaker.co.uk/ , and other barrel experts who TIG weld sleeved barrels as a normal course of business on the subject of what needs done when. Perhaps the TIG welding is done before ribs, eh, don't know myself. Barrels are not hardened so I can't imagine that is any issue. But I do know that it is the proper way of sleeving barrels and done very, very frequently for both rifles and shotguns.

If you look at Searcy double rifles, you will see that their mono blocked barrels - aka sleeved barrels - are also TIG welded to remove the seams. Most all Searcy barrels sets are mono blocked, all except their top end rifles for which chopper lump barrels are an option.

Edited to add that my understanding of the TIG welding process is tha the heat required for welding a joint can be very localized. Whether this is because of the technique itself or because the technique is practical with heat sheilding or abatement - like, for instance, ice baths in front and behind the weld seams - I don't know first hand.

Edited a second time to add that I have a pair of high end Greener side lock 12ga shotguns made in 1919 that have two barrel sets each. The original barrels were 30" and a second set for each gun was made circa 1950 that were 26" and 2 3/4" chambered. Some fool cut the original 30" barrels to 26" and the second 26" sets ballanced poorly. I had John Foster & Co sleeve all four to 29". The guns returned and when I look very, very closely, I can see a slight color change at the seam near the bottom of the barrels on one set of barrels, the other three are invisible. I doubt a corsury inspection by anyone would reveal the color change on the one set, but I know where to look and why and for what.

JPK

Edited by JPK (04/12/08 03:47 PM)


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Anonymous
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: 500grains]
      #120315 - 04/12/08 05:17 PM

In regards to the title post; I prefer both old and new best quality doubles. Though you have to spend big money these days to match such quality, of those days gone bye..

As far as these two rifles go, there both vintage guns, the H&H is quite lovely, the WR is peculiar in that it appears to be sleeved, but there's no mention of that in the advertisement. The price is whoa!

JPK: It's Paul Roberts http://www.jroberts-gunmakers.co.uk/ who I think your referring to. He's the one that did all that re-chambering years ago..


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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: ]
      #120330 - 04/12/08 11:44 PM

Generalwar,

Paul Roberts did much of the rechambering and barrel reboring, but I was actually referring to, or at least rying to refer to, John Foster, who does much sleeving, primarily of shotgun barrels, and TIG welds the seams.

JPK


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120360 - 05/12/08 06:15 AM

JPK , I think you are mistaken in regard to Butch Searcy's rifles! They are not tig welded at the seams! The Searcy barrels are threaded into the mono-block, for about 1" from the seam to the end of the threads, then the rest of the barrel's chamber area is an almost press fit into the rest of the mono-block to the breach end, then trimmed off to be flush with the face of the breach end of the mono-block. The seams can be seen if one looks very closely, but are fitted so well that it is not evident. This is the strongest way to fit barrels into a mono-block, and is exactly the same way barrels are fitted into a bolt action rifle!

The reason I know this to be fact is, I made the same mistake you did in regard to Butch's rifles, makeing the statement that he tigs the seams, and he sent me an E-mail telling me he didn't use a tig weld on the seams, then explained the whole process to me!

I'm not saying, however, that there is anything wrong with tigging up the seams, because tig welding is the coolest weld one can do, and heats very shallowly. I have done this myself on sleeved barrels, with a home made heat sink in the chamber end of the barrels, that consists of an aluminum rod in the bore with it's end being cooled by dry ice. With this process, the barrel can be held in your bare hand as soon as the weld is completed!

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DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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tinker
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #120365 - 05/12/08 07:29 AM

I'll ring back to this on a couple of related points, both on barrels.


My comment, taking H&H as an example, illustrates the differences between modern standard alloy steels (such as Bramble's noted 4140) and the sometimes mysterious steels used in rifle barrels at the turn of the 19/20th century.

Of blown best doubles from back then, the bulk of the stories I've heard have been of as-new safe-queen miracle condition rifles.
Pop.

What happened?
As yet, I don't know of anyone who's done destructive or nondestructive testing of any of those barrel sets to get an engineer's clue to what really happened.
Could it have been fubar alloy?
What was that alloy?

When TIG welding steel, it takes as much energy to puddle the parent and filler material as it does with a torch or any other type of arc. Where TIG works so well is that it's actually a brilliantly HOT method, but the man in control is able to manipulate the process to a very fine margin - that's how you can get the minimal Heat Affected Zone.

That minimal HAZ is not necessarily a good thing, in airframe repair shops, the techs will at times tig instead of torch weld the alloy steel frame tubing, but they will almost ALWAYS follow up with a torch to anneal the area after a TIG weld, to minimize the risk of stress due to the strictly localized HAZ.

Lightweight bicycle frames were once built from straight or taper gauged 4130 tubing, but the industry learned that (as they didn't have the option of annealing the paper-thin TIG welded tubes with a torch without warping) after tens-hundreds of thousands of stress cycles the tubes would crack near the welds.
That industry is responsible for some very neat new steel alloys that are designed specifically to normalize to an ideal property after cooling down from a TIG weld. Columbus and Reynolds did some of the earliest work in that area.

Bramble actually brings up a very good point.
From an engineer's perspective, it's unwise at best to take something like 4140 and weld it to an unknown alloy of steel in such a high-pressure, high-stress cycle, and high-liability product.
Further, there is no welder worth his tungsten who will attempt to park a TIG weld directly against a soft-soldered or hard-soldered joint such as a rib joint or a silvered sleeve joint.
No way Sam.
The inevitable boiling and ionizing of the non-ferrous filler materials would destroy the possibility of a sound weld, sending contamination into the grain structure of the parent materials.


As our friend Mac notes, there is really no need to weld at sleeve seams.
With proper attention to detail and process, with proper finishing (strike,polish,burnish,polish,black) the results are essentially invisible.

There's really no good reason why that couldn't have happened with the droplock rifle seen above here.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: tinker]
      #120367 - 05/12/08 08:30 AM

Mac,

Thanks for the correction regarding Searcy barrels.

Tinker,

Sleeving is done with the ribs removed. This then would be when one of the barrel shops which commonly TIG weld the seams does their welding, to prevent contamination?

Would the subsequent heat of soldering the barrel ribs in be sufficient heat to overcome the localized issues you refer to regarding the small area heat affected by TIG welding?

TIG welding id not an uncommon practice regarding sleeving any barrels, and moreover, the process passes muster with both English proof houses and other European houses, and passed the proof load tests as well. No mean feat if the process isn't safe.

JPK


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tinker
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120370 - 05/12/08 10:09 AM

JPK-

Yes I know that sleeving involves the removal of the ribs, and I was noting the relevance of Bramble's comment on what you said...

"...The barrels need a trip to John Roberts in England or one of the good barrel guys here for TIG welding the seams. Then good buffing and a re-black with touched up engraving and you wouldn't know the barrels were sleeved..."

It would not likely be prudent to take these sets of assembled, regulated, fully built barrels for such a treatment.
You'd have to nearly completely take them apart to accomplish what you were suggesting.
That could only be attempted if the sleeve job didn't employ any kind of solder where the new barrels met the old 'stubs'

That would be very expensive!

My comments on HAZ and stress can be taken as one wishes.
Just pointing out the engineers perspective on weldments of dissimilar unknown materials and HAZ related stress/stress relief.


Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: tinker]
      #120415 - 06/12/08 12:44 AM

Tinker,

Yes I agree that a proper sleeving job, whether it involved TIG welding or just a very tight tolerance fit up like Searcy apparently uses, would involve diasembling the ribs and probably the sleeving itself. But It isn't that expensive, imo, when compared to what you have - as illustrated in the photos - and what you would have without the usightly gap and cheesy cover up engraving.

But I still wonder what your opinion is regarding whether the heating of the barrels in relaying the ribs, or other heat up, might do to alleviate any of the srtess issues you refer to. And I also wonder what those who TID barrels regylarly do to overcome any issues, if any.

JPK


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Bramble
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120416 - 06/12/08 01:29 AM

I spoke this morning to a UK barrel maker who is routinly TIGing sleeved shotgun barrels. It does involve complete disasembaly of the ribs. Shotgun barrels however are of a lessor grade of low carbon steel.
As Tinker wrote, and I suspected, it cannot be done where a conventional method involving soft solder has already been used due to weld contamination. Following the TIG the weld area is then torch annealed. I do not work on shotgun barrels so in this regard I will have to bow to the experience of those that are doing so.

We spoke then about doing the same for rifle barrels and due to the alloy steel the jury is out. It has been refered back to the specialist welders that actually carry out the shotgun jobs for their comments, the people that I spoke to had never attempted it with DR barrels. I will post their reply when I get more information.

My read on this would be that it would be more economicaly sound to build a complete new set of chopper lump barrels than engage in a make do and mend on a set like this. As the work involved to do it properly would be similar in hours expended and one would still only end up with a set of sleeved barrels.

JPK did state that "Barrels are not hardened so I can't imagine that is any issue". In the case of rifle barrels that is not so. Rifle barrel steel has an average hardness of RC 25-30 I believe that some from various manufacturers can go as high as RC 37-8. There is a well documented embrittlement problem with 4140 @ the 500 degrees transition. I can see no way that normalisation of the material can be done without reassembly as it is above remelt temp of the spelter.

Regards


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Huvius
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120420 - 06/12/08 02:25 AM

Quote:

I looked at the Westley Richards on Champlin's website some time back. It looks like the barrels are sleeved, even though they look like shoe lump construction.




They do look like shoe lump, but there is a center seam on the lumps (pic with the bottom plate off) Were shoe lumps soldered together this way as with chopper lumps?

There is a lot of talk about modern steels in this discussion.
I have not noticed that a modern barrel has any more bore life than a vintage barrel - on a Winchester model 70 say.
Knowing the service many classic guns were subjected to, and their longevity with proper care, is the idea of using modern steel relevant?

Also, are sleeved double barrels normally TIG welded at the breech end or the muzzle end or both?
Does the weld serve to function as a structural improvement, or simply to conceal the seam?

I know, a lot of questions - just trying to learn here

--------------------
He who lives in the past is doomed to enjoy it.


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Bramble
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: Huvius]
      #120421 - 06/12/08 02:38 AM

I don't know about this set but I have a WR set made in 1864 going to a client that have exactly the same construction and they are indeed a shoe lump.


It is not that modern steels are better or not really that is under discussion. Rather that it is almost impossible to buy barrels that are not modern alloy steels. The discussion is if it is OK to TIG weld such steels to older steels of unknown composition. I am quite certain that in engineering applications other than firearms where the same grades of steel are used it would not be contemplated without extensive pre and post heat treatment. The question is if it is indeed being done in the firearms field and what engineering/metalurgical principles are being applied apart from SWAG.

As I said in a post above, I don't normally deal with shotguns. I was suprised to find that TIG is being applied here. But those doing it are apparently happy with the process. The TIG is at the joint between sleeve and old barrel/monoblock. Apparently no other fastening method is used. It was unclear from my brief conversation this morning if it is also applied at the breech end to seal the liner here. I will know more next week. There is no TIG at the muzzle this is traditionally soft soldered.

Regards


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DUGABOY1
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: Bramble]
      #120422 - 06/12/08 02:40 AM

Some very good information posted here, but there are three different things being discussed as one! In these posts we have had examples posted for sleeving shotgun barrels, Mnon-blocking of old rifle barrels, and sleeving in new barrels (this could also include converting a shotgun to a rifle, as well), and true mono-block barrels! All do not require the same methods of fitting, and all are physically different in make up!

In the case of a real mono-block, as the name implies, a mono-block is one solid piece of steel, milled from a known aloy. With this one may fit the block to the action and rough finish to shape befor barrels are even aquired. There is no solder involved at this point. the barrels may be turned to fit two holes through the mono-block, and can be fixed there by threading, and press fit, or silvering,the barrel shanks, and fluxing, the mono-block, heated, and barrels pressed into place, and cooled. At this point the stress relief can be done any way the maker chooses. I personally whould go the Cryno method with any of the systems involved posted on this thread. The true mono-block can be tigged, with little problem in relieving stress by the method you choose.

The sleeving of new barrels in an old shotgun,be they rifle or shot, is best done by cutting threads in the front 1" of the hole with the rest of the barrel shank being turned to a press fit in the squared, and faced old barrel butts! No heat involved at all. That method is not only stronger, but when the ribs are installed,it locks the barrels in place perminently. This last thing is not true mono-blocking, and though both the mono-block, and sleeving in new barresl in the old barrel butts are both sleeving, the are as different as night and day as far as strength goes, and methods need to be done properly!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"


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tinker
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120426 - 06/12/08 03:04 AM

JPK-


On the question about rib-solder work being enough to do the trick on TIG weld HAZ...

In that bit of work it's important to get the work up to temperature all the way around the barrel (equal treatment of HAZ), everywhere there's HAZ, all to the same relative effect.
Speaking as someone who's put down more pounds of silver into brazed joints than I could ever possibly recall, and likely factors of magnitude more of soft solder in joints similar to rib joints, I wouldn't want to have to try to anneal that kind of weld *and* attempt a rib solder job at the same time, given my understanding and respect for issues of HAZ related stress/relief.

For the sake of a complete answer, I will say that it's likely possible, perhaps easiest in a hearth type arrangement where the whole barrel set is immersed in an controlled temperature open oven of sorts.

In the context of the droplock seen above, I would worry about the integrity of the shoe lump joints during that kind of excursion.
Also I'd be concerned about whatever was used on the male/female fit of the sleeve job.

I simply do not feel that there is an elegant solution to the appearance of the joints of those WR barrel sets.

Also, see Bramble's comments above.


Huvius-

Notice the specific language I brought to condition in my hypothetical comparison of old vs new H&H.
As-new, perfect condition, 'Sleeping Beauty' safe-queen turn-of-19/20th Century Hollands give me the willies.
There's been more than a handful of them that once fit that description until they got woken up again in the last ten or fifteen years that 'mysteriously' popped their barrels during load development, while in the hands of highly experienced double rifle owner/shooter/handlers using known-good load recipes and components.

There seems to be something about that combination, that's been kicked around in numerous threads here and elsewhere.
Much more to it than simply vintage vs modern barrel steel.

For as-new condition give me new gear made of recently alloyed modern material.
Otherwise I want to know it's got the nuts to handle the work and has a track history of doing it well.




Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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Bramble
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: DUGABOY1]
      #120428 - 06/12/08 03:24 AM

"The sleeving of new barrels in an old shotgun,be they rifle or shot, is best done by cutting threads in the front 1" of the hole "

With the greatest of respect, there is insufficient wall thickness to do that to a best shotgun if one is replacing with shot barrels. Given that the barrel shank diamiter needs to be less than the minor diamiter of the thread and then the major diamiter needs to be accomodated by the existing barrel wall thickness. Nor is it needed as it will not conceal the joint. Traditionally these sleeves are simply soft soldered into the reamed out "monoblock" created by cutting off the old barrels. The resultant surface area for the soft solder give much highter sheer strength than a fine circa .729 minor diamiter 1" long thread can do. Further it obviates any gas cutting that is possible from a thread alone.

"In the case of a real mono-block, as the name implies, a mono-block is one solid piece of steel, milled from a known aloy. With this one may fit the block to the action and rough finish to shape befor barrels are even aquired. There is no solder involved at this point. the barrels may be turned to fit two holes through the mono-block, and can be fixed there by threading, and press fit, or silvering,the barrel shanks, and fluxing, the mono-block, heated, and barrels pressed into place, and cooled. At this point the stress relief can be done any way the maker chooses. I personally whould go the Cryno method with any of the systems involved posted on this thread. The true mono-block can be tigged, with little problem in relieving stress by the method you choose.
"

In this process there is no need for stress relief as there are none set up unless the barrel joint is welded.

In respect of Cryo stress relief generally, this is not suitible for welded CrM steel as the steel needs to be heated to its normalisation tempreture to realign the crystaline structure, rehardened and tempered. Cryo will not and is not, designed to achieve this.

Regards


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: tinker]
      #120429 - 06/12/08 03:28 AM

Edit by Curl:

CURL'S CAUSITC OPINIONS DELETED AS NOT NICE.

Guess I ought to keep my caustic opinions to myself and my cat Bob. My apologies to whoever did the sleeve job and colors.

Curl

Edited by CptCurl (06/12/08 03:38 AM)


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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120439 - 06/12/08 04:05 AM

Bramble, Tinker, All,

I understand that barrels are not hardened, though they may be made of hard steel. Or, putting it another way, the barrels are not subject to a hardening process either before or after they are finished. Perhaps my understanding is incorrect?

Also, I am an executive of a company that welds, repairs, assembles, etc valving and piping in high pressure systems, mostly steam systems, from 1/2" through 36" and even larger, and at pressures of upward of 60,000psi. The systems run at various loads from long term full pressures to lower pressures to no pressure. Most systems are subject to anything from mild to intense vibration. I do know that rapid spikes, like a shotgun or rifle barrel would be subject to are to be avoided. Personally I don't know squat about the technical requirements of the welding, I got out of the hands on side of the business decades ago after a very short apprenticeship, but I'll ask some of our craftsmen, who are required to be certified by various testing agencies, about what is required to make the welds viable for the high pressures and able to stand the high vibration environments, which seems to me to be related to hardening and brittleness.

If I learn anything useful, I'll report back.

JPK


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Bramble
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120443 - 06/12/08 04:35 AM

JPK

You are correct that barrels are not hardened subsiquent to manufacture, however the steel from which they are made is machined in its hardened and tempered state.

CrMo at 30 ish Rc is reasonably machineable, thus it does not need to be annealed prior to machineing. So it combines the properties of hardness and toughness that make it ideal for firearms and ease of production.


Your guys will work these materials routinely in high pressure pipeline systems as it is an industry standard in the oil pipe and fittings field. (there are also some more exotics now in the CrMo range with specific propities but they are not so common im firearms). I will be most please to hear what they have to say as nobody can ever have enough knowledge.
I am about to send a 470NE shoe lump set to a firm that specialises in lazer brazing as they promise that they can use a high melt spelter without changing the core toughness/hardness of the 4140 from which it is made, thus giving me more joint strength without recourse to vaccum brazing. They are going to perform hardness tests after assembly. Do I have the answer to that one ? Well what I know of lazers I learnt from William Shatner , but I do wait with anticipation.

Please do not think that anything written here is intended as a critic of you or anyone else, it is rather that unless these things are discussed fully, there is always a posibility of somebody just believing that they can buy a TIG set on e-bay and modify their own guns, based on what they have seen written here.

Regards


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Bramble
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120444 - 06/12/08 04:37 AM

Quote:

Edit by Curl:

CURL'S CAUSITC OPINIONS DELETED AS NOT NICE.

Guess I ought to keep my caustic opinions to myself and my cat Bob. My apologies to whoever did the sleeve job and colors.

Curl






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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: Bramble]
      #120454 - 06/12/08 06:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Edit by Curl:

CURL'S CAUSITC OPINIONS DELETED AS NOT NICE.

Guess I ought to keep my caustic opinions to myself and my cat Bob. My apologies to whoever did the sleeve job and colors.

Curl









Here's my cat Bob. He's a good listener, and he keeps secrets.
He's not opinionated about double rifles.





Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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tinker
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: Bramble]
      #120455 - 06/12/08 06:31 AM

I will second Bramble's notes of caution to whomever may end up viewing this thread in the future.
One's ability to possess a TIG welding machine, and to puddle a bit of parent material with it's arc does not so simply qualify them to assess the possibility or feasibility of a weldment.
I have seen numerous 'expert demonstrations' of TIG welding in recent on-line video format which were ultimate hack-jobs, and can imagine that there is a much greater mis-understanding of the process than I would guess.

There is much to consider around such things, especially when such things are to eventually be parked near the temples of a hunter and run time and again on into the generations.

Always err to the side of caution, and with respect to the nature of the materials.

Again, to refer to the WR seen at the top of this thread - to take it as an example for the original proposition instead of some H&H -- I'd take a modern-built WR drop lock rifle made of modern materials before I'd take it -- in a hot second.

Chances are that if I were to order one, I'd order it in a similar configuration (save for the sleeve-job), shoe lumps and all!
And again, that is if the old and new were served to me on a plate, the choice of the two being mine as gift...





Cheers
Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...


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bigdog
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: Bramble]
      #120465 - 06/12/08 09:25 AM

My preference of old vs. new is to have BOTH !!!

--------------------
Kyle, I love you buddy, Dad


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philbert
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: bigdog]
      #120671 - 09/12/08 01:29 AM

Make mine a jones underlever hammer gun please!

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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: philbert]
      #120673 - 09/12/08 02:23 AM

Quote:

Make mine a jones underlever hammer gun please!




Philbert,

You are a new member here, and I don't know if you've come to realize yet that you have, regarding your preference for Jones underlever actioned, hammer double rifles, some serious company. If your preference also runs to blackpowder express cartridges, wow, its almost like a cult!

When it comes to the express rifles, I hope to find a great condition top lever, rebounding hammer, damascus barreled 450 Express double. But a good Jones underlever sure would be nice too.

JPK


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120691 - 09/12/08 07:56 AM

JPK,

When it comes to black powder hammer express rifles, top levers and bar action locks are for sissies!

The Jones lever with beautiful back action locks is the classic to my eye.

I think this is the more elegant style:



And that this is not quite as elegant (please excuse the fact it is a shotty):



All in my humble opinion, of course!

Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120699 - 09/12/08 11:09 AM

I should have been more clear! My desire runs to the back action, or island locks too, but with a top lever. And 450 Express 3 1/4".

I would also drool over a shotgun so fitted. And with ejectors. I recall seing a photo of a trio of Purdeys, owned once upon a time by Lord Ripon, perhaps the finest game shot of all time; beyond beautiful! Long 30" barrels, fantastic wood, excellent leather pads, top levers, back action island locks and ejectors. All still in fabulous shape, with no wear visible, IIRC all original. The Holy Grail. There was an accompanying photo showing six dead pheasants, all still in the air!

Beautiful guns you pictured. Your? What are they?

JPK


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120711 - 09/12/08 01:34 PM

Oh, Island locks! How I love them too!



Sorry, no top lever.

The two in the post above are (top) a best quality 12b Thomas Horsley double rifle I used to own; and (bottom) a 10b Charles Daly (Lindner) shotgun I currently own.

Hammers rock!




Curl

--------------------
RoscoeStephenson.com

YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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kamilaroi
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120716 - 09/12/08 02:21 PM

As some above I am a fan of back action side locks. Have a Frederick T Baker (sleeved) nitro proved 12 bore best quality gun (cased). I think Crudgington did a short bio. If you don't know Baker fought the "battle of the ejectors" with WR and won, though the legal costs sent him under. Mine is what I presume a wholly built piece after that matter. Pity he did not rebuild the business as the quality is something else!

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gatsby
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120717 - 09/12/08 02:36 PM

Top lever, hammergun, island locks; W.W.Greener




--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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JPK
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: gatsby]
      #120723 - 09/12/08 03:46 PM

Gatsby,

Tell us more, and more photos please!

Looks like a real gem.

JPK


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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: JPK]
      #120745 - 09/12/08 11:34 PM

Yes Gatsby, more!

A beauty.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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gatsby
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120808 - 10/12/08 01:53 PM

A true smoothbore ballgun by factory letter. Redone, but nicely by WR, I did not think I would find another in original or any condition. An unexpected surgery has preempted range time with her but it will be fun.





--------------------
"Recoil is insignificant when there is a tiger on the head of your elephant" The Maharaja of Cooch Behar



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rigbymauser
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: gatsby]
      #120848 - 11/12/08 01:36 AM

...jones under Lever, back action hammer rifle....

I am beginninmg to like this thread here.

I wonder how much a gunsmith would make for a new made action of the above mentioned for a 8 or 4 bore??. I guess the hammers could be found/taken from a salvaged gun.


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Bramble
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: rigbymauser]
      #120860 - 11/12/08 03:19 AM

Quote:

...jones under Lever, back action hammer rifle....

I am beginninmg to like this thread here.

I wonder how much a gunsmith would make for a new made action of the above mentioned for a 8 or 4 bore??. I guess the hammers could be found/taken from a salvaged gun.




You know a man that can Jens, and he just happens to have 40 pairs of recovered hammer locks in stock...but if you have to ask how much


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rigbymauser
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: Bramble]
      #120945 - 12/12/08 02:15 AM

Quote:

Quote:

...jones under Lever, back action hammer rifle....

I am beginninmg to like this thread here.

I wonder how much a gunsmith would make for a new made action of the above mentioned for a 8 or 4 bore??. I guess the hammers could be found/taken from a salvaged gun.




You know a man that can Jens, and he just happens to have 40 pairs of recovered hammer locks in stock...but if you have to ask how much




Oh yes...If I can ever get a hold of him ...he seems to have left england for many months now, gone to distand lands...hahahaa


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doubleriflenut
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: CptCurl]
      #120984 - 12/12/08 09:07 AM

Amen! They also reduce the value considerably as well. It is getting more difficult to find an "honest" gun these days.

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nopride2
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Re: Your preference - new best quality or vintage? [Re: doubleriflenut]
      #121881 - 22/12/08 12:42 PM

I prefer Jones underlever hammer guns. Have a 450-3 1/4" and a 577 2 3/4".

A 4140 rifle barrel at 30-32 rockwell has been hardend and tempered. Consulting my Ryerson alloy steel reference book,I find the following 4140 information.
1 inch diameter bar.
Quench 1500 to 1550 F.
Temper 1000 F. 37 RC
Temper 1200 F. 27 Rc

Dave


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