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Double Rifles, Single Shots & Combinations >> Double Rifles

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dearmer
.275 member

Reged: 14/10/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Cape Cod, MA

Bullet weight and POI
#116694 - 12/10/08 02:23 AM

I have a 500 3 1/4" BPE that I have worked up a good NFB load for using 440 grain Woodleighs. Problem is, with the original sights it shoots 6 inches high at 50 meters. Tried multiple powders, and varying velocities, but it never really changes more than an inch.
The 440 grain bullet seems to be the excepted weight for the NFB loading with this cartridge. However every vintage black powder loading I have come across (Eley and Kynoch) for the 3 1/4" has used 480 grain bullets.
Before I waist my time and money experimenting with heavier bullets, I would like to know if anyone has had similar problems and found a cure. Think the extra 40 grains would lower the POI that much? I can of course change the front sight, but I really don't want to do that.

Thanks,
Josh

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DUGABOY1
.400 member

Reged: 02/02/03
Posts: 1340
Loc: TEXAS USA

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: dearmer]
#116785 - 13/10/08 02:07 AM

Quote:

I have a 500 3 1/4" BPE that I have worked up a good NFB load for using 440 grain Woodleighs. Problem is, with the original sights it shoots 6 inches high at 50 meters. Tried multiple powders, and varying velocities, but it never really changes more than an inch.
The 440 grain bullet seems to be the excepted weight for the NFB loading with this cartridge. However every vintage black powder loading I have come across (Eley and Kynoch) for the 3 1/4" has used 480 grain bullets.
Before I waist my time and money experimenting with heavier bullets, I would like to know if anyone has had similar problems and found a cure. Think the extra 40 grains would lower the POI that much? I can of course change the front sight, but I really don't want to do that.

Thanks,
Josh

IMO, a heavier bullet will make it shoot even higher and apart, because of lengthening the Barrel time. If the load you are useing shoots good composite groups then I'd simply install a higher front sight! A good smith can make you a sight that looks exactly like the one you have, and make it look old as well! That is what I'd do, but you can certainly try the heavier bullets! They may do the trick, because sometimes double rifles simply do not follow the rules!

--------------------
..........Mac >>>===(x)===>
DUGABOY1, and MacD37 founding member of DRSS www.doublerifleshooterssociety.com
"If I die today, I have had a life well spent, for I've been to see the Elephant, and smelled the smoke of Africa!"

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dearmer
.275 member

Reged: 14/10/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Cape Cod, MA

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: DUGABOY1]
#116845 - 13/10/08 05:47 PM

I hear what you're saying about barrel time, heavier bullets taking longer to clear the muzzle, allowing recoil to impart more lift on the bullet. That said, the gun was originally black powder. I've never used black powder but everyone seems to agree that 144 grains of BP produces much more recoil. Wouldn't this added recoil also cause the bullet to impact higher? The rifle is a H&H royal and I tend to think that it didn't leave the factory shooting 6 inches high. I would much rather duplicate what it was intended to do rather than changing the sight.

The sight is a low profile with a platinum bead, and flip up night sight. The gun is near mint (in fact it may never have been fired outside of regulation before I got it) and a sight like the one on it is very expensive to duplicate today.

I thought this thread would generate more replies. Am I the only one that has had this problem?

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Paul
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Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: dearmer]
#116846 - 13/10/08 07:01 PM

Forgive my ignorance but according to Wright the 440 gr and 480gr bullets should be launched at about the same speed, probably for regulation. If so, the heavier bullet would not have a much slower barrel time, but would have the extra weight.

This is the BP version of course, using 142 grains for both bullets. As an aside, can I assume the reason black powder kicks more is because it adds about 80 grains to the ejecta load than NFB?

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450_366
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Reged: 17/01/07
Posts: 1068
Loc: Sweden, west-coast.

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: dearmer]
#116863 - 13/10/08 11:54 PM

Are you aiming with the bead on target? if so perhaps its regulated to aim on topp of the bead?

Is there any stamps on bulletweight on the barrels?

And btw, where are the pictures? I want to see some pictures.

--------------------
Andreas

"Yeas it kicks like a mule he said, but always remember that its much worse standing on the other end"

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: 450_366]
#116877 - 14/10/08 03:53 AM

Josh-

This is a typical problem with 100+yr old BPE double rifles shooting NFB loads.
My Tolley 500-450 3-1/2" Magnum Express (NFB load = 350gr SNRN 2025fpsMV) does the same thing.
I've seen and heard of numerous other BPE double rifles with this issue.
What do you have for a rear sight? My Tolley has a single express sight, flanked by the "Charge 5-1/2 Drams" prescription engraved on the top of the chambers -- true express, Point Blank to 175 yards!
The standard course of action is to either live with it as it is or have a new front sight made.
The cost of a front sight isn't peanuts compared to the cost/value of an AsNew H&H Royal (of any configuration), and it doesn't detract from the value of the rifle in any way.

There's another thing that can contribute to this -- stock fit. The angle of the buttplate and the cut of the stock can affect vertical POI.

Something else you should try is Black Powder.
Get a pound of Swiss 1-1/2F and some hard cast bullets of appropriate weight and shoot the load it was built for.
See how it prints with coal and lead.

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Paul
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Reged: 28/08/07
Posts: 1031
Loc: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: tinker]
#116905 - 14/10/08 01:51 PM

Are we to understand this is a recently made rifle? I'd love to see a pic and hear the story of how this came about.

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tinker
.416 member

Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: Paul]
#116909 - 14/10/08 02:51 PM

Paul-

The rifle of which I speak is seen in my signature line.
I've written of it here and elsewhere here on NitroExpress.

The 3-1/2" cartridge (and the rifle) dates back to the early 1880's
It was a NA&A BPE proprietary round, originally of coiled brass construction. J&W Tolley were known to run this and other NA&A cartridges.
There's another member here Marrakai (from the NT), who also owns a J&W Tolley 500/450 with these chambers.

The original ammunition was loaded with either a ~285gr tubed bullet or a ~360gr soft round nose semi-jacketed bullet.

Cheers

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: tinker]
#116910 - 14/10/08 03:05 PM

Mate,

Any load recommendations NFB with a 350 grainer as I have an Alex Henry falling block in the same?

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tinker
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Reged: 12/03/05
Posts: 4835
Loc: Nevada

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: kamilaroi]
#116914 - 14/10/08 03:42 PM

Kamilaroi-

Careful with this.
Look through my posting history here, I've asked this question before and have gotten different answers.
Having tried numerous powders, bullets, and loads I finally found a load that works right in my rifle.
I was very cautious working up to a regulation load.
Don't try my load in your rifle without serious consideration, comparison, examination of your rifle, and from having worked your way to anything near it from waaaay below the standard "start ten percent low and work your way up..."
My Tolley takes a wicked big charge of powder to do it's thing. This isn't the only feature of the rifle that's unusual.

I haven't seen another BPE rifle take this much powder to shoot this velocity with this bullet weight.
My rifle weighs 10-1/4 lbs and runs at 2025fps
Marrakai's rifle regulates at a lower velocity, takes less powder to do it, and it weighs 1-3/4lbs less.

In Birmingham, Wright ran the 500/450 3-1/4" Nitro For Black:
Bertram 3-1/4" 500/450 brass
70.0gr Varget
350gr SNRN bullet
2020fps
9.0tpsi

Compare that to his note that the period mean service pressure for the black powder load was 11tpsi.

The 500/450 3-1/4" Magnum BPE took 140gr powder
My Tolley (and Marrakai's) call for 150gr powder
The ten grain difference takes that extra 1/4" of case to handle it. The increase in chamber volume will affect the pressure readings (compared to Wright's results)

The load for my rifle
Bertram 450no2NE 3-1/2" brass
Fed215 primer
76gr Varget
21gr Dacron (frim to the bullet)
Hornady model#4502 350gr SNRN jacketed bullet
2025fps (10ft from the muzzle)

Careful with that!

What exactly is your rifle?
What's it chambered for?
Is it a bottleneck (500/450) case?

Cheers

--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--

"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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kamilaroi
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Reged: 18/12/04
Posts: 1803
Loc: sydney, new south wales, Austr...

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: tinker]
#116916 - 14/10/08 04:38 PM

Ta mate,

Mine's a Henry F/B 1868? patent with a straight stock, cranked lockplate and stalking safety in front of the RHS hammer. It's elsewhere ATM being restocked to the original but from memory the proofs are 440 with standard BP proofs (no powder charge stamped) with enough lede for the standard 3 1/4" case with a 350 grain pill to chamber easily with HEAPS of clearance for a 3 1/2 OA case length, thus I guess it's a 500/450 Magnum BP with a standard 140 grain BP load. It may well be a hybrid case (not having much of a step down/ bottle neck) and I do take Wal's comments on chamber variations in Vol 1 as of value. I estimate mfg date around late 1880s as the S/N is 6649.

Currently I load as much FFg C&H (cracker powder 130 grains?) as I can fit to a crush fit with a thin wad and a 9 grain charge of pistol powder above a magnum primer. Wrights book is a guide but I'm anxious to keep to safe working pressures if I go NFB.

BTW mine weighs 7 1/2 lbs.

Edited by kamilaroi (14/10/08 04:40 PM)

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dearmer
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Reged: 14/10/05
Posts: 63
Loc: Cape Cod, MA

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: kamilaroi]
#116921 - 14/10/08 08:07 PM

Really don't want to try black powder. I'm not set up to load for it and the only reason I'd do it would be for comparison.

The rear sight is a standard 1 standing 2 folding with platinum line.

I'd gladly post pictures of all my stuff, but I don't have any with me (I'm currently in Afghanistan). Someday I'll get home and do a photo session and get them on here.

Glad to here that this is a problem others are having also. More curious than anything as to why it happens.
I don't have a problem replacing the front sight. I know in the grand scheme of things it isn't that expensive. It needs to go up about 1/8 of an inch to compensate. This causes some problems in keeping it looking original as the depression for the night sight would need to be cut further up the rib to allow the longer flip up sight to fold down. There isn't enough rear sight to allow that much to be taken off it. Maybe a compromise between the two.

Even if the bead was meant to be placed under the bulls rather than on it, it would only account for about two inches. Better, but still off.

As an aside. For people working up a NFB load from scratch I would recommend trying 5744. Varget and 4198 with filler work but I've had better results with 5744. I can usually pull off a 6 shot group with an extreme spread of only 25 fps. This is using a Federal 215 and no filler. There will be a substantial amount of unburned powder left in the barrel (and even on the chrony 20 feet away) but it is consistent in not burning and gives me great results. Plus it is very nice to just drop the powder in the case and seat the bullet without screwing with fillers.

Thanks for the comments/suggestions. Keep them coming.
Josh

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Birdhunter50
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Reged: 03/06/07
Posts: 815
Loc: Iowa,U.S.A.

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: dearmer]
#116924 - 14/10/08 09:37 PM

Dearmer,
This is just a thought, but have you tried a slightly lighter bullet with the same powder charge? That would give you more speed, less recoil, and a faster barrel time , and it should lower your POI. I would do anything to avoid changing that front sight. It's not the money involved, you might change it and then find that you had a better solution or something. I don't like burning Black in any of my cartridge guns and because there are now so many substitutes for black, I would also fool around with some of them. Beware though, whether they smoke or not, they are all somewhat corrosive and you need to clean it up right away after shooting.
Bob H.

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peter
removed

Reged: 11/04/07
Posts: 1493
Loc: denmark

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: kamilaroi]
#116947 - 15/10/08 03:28 AM

Quote:

Mate,

Any load recommendations NFB with a 350 grainer as I have an Alex Henry falling block in the same?

kamilaroi

have you tryed to contact the factory and get the load info straight from the books ? it could take the guess work to much lower levels

they were very helpfull regarding my alex henry.

here is there website: http://www.dicksonandmacnaughton.com/thecompany/index.html

best regards

peter

Edited by peter (15/10/08 03:33 AM)

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DarylS
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Reged: 10/08/05
Posts: 26541
Loc: Beautiful British Columbia, Ca...

Re: Bullet weight and POI [Re: peter]
#116972 - 15/10/08 11:34 AM

My close friend has a nice double .500 BPE. It shoots to the sights and is very accurate with 136gr. Pyrodex RS and a 450gr. Lyman bullet from an oversize mould. I don't think he's ever shot smokeless in it. Cleanup is easy. A 1/10" card over the powder is all, with a good black powder lube in the grooves - SPG or Lyman's BPGold work. With Pyrodex, even an Alox/beeswax lube might work.

--------------------
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a Spaniel without ears" King George V

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