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CptCurlAdministrator
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Hey guys, What about failures?
      #72005 - 20/02/07 12:36 PM

I'm not poking fun or stirring the pot. I find interesting the posts about building double rifles, and I envy the skill to do so.

But some of these projects are a bit iffy. My guts tell me they don't all end up as glowing successes. Does anybody have the guts and confidence to tell us about a failed project? It seems there is as much to learn about that which failed as that which succeeded. Guide us away from the potholes. This can be an interesting discussion.

Thanks,
Curl

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banzaibird
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: CptCurl]
      #72226 - 22/02/07 11:51 AM

Sure, Curl... rub salt in the wounds . Well I've actually had 2 failures. Both of which were in the "proofing" stage.

The first was a 38-55 built on a Lefever Nitro Special. It was the first conversion I ever tried and it was before Brown's book came out. In short the action while very strong for shotshell use was lacking for rifle cartridge use. It broke the rib extension locking piece right off the barrels on firing. I ended up repairing it and running light black powder loads through it for a few years. Then recently I decided I didn't want someone else to get ahold of it somehow and hurt themselves so I took the barrels apart and am turning them down to use on another 38-55 project on a 28 gauge action.

The other failure I had wasn't nearly as dramatic. It was built using a 20 gauge Thomas Bland (English) action. There were no barrels to the gun (or forend). It was a $50 buy at a local gunshow. After building a monoblock for the gun and chambering it in 30-40 Krag it was test fired and the action seemed to stretch as though it was pretty soft. Thus within just a couple of "proof loads" it was coming off face. In that case because I had so much invested in the barrels I used the measurements (with slight alterations) and made a new action at the mill. It took a while and I'd never get rich doing it but it really wasn't hard to copy the action dimension for dimension to make another of more modern steel. My Father-in-law liked that gun so much he made me go through all the paperwork with the ATF to get it serial numbered and pay the excise tax so he could purchase it from me.

So nothing to exciting but that's 2 failures and both were built on actions I probably should have known better than to try from the start.

I did learn that making actions one at a time isn't hard as long as you have a pattern in front of you. So when are you going to send me the Woodward to copy? I'll make sure you get it back in 30-40 years or so .

Bill

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tinker
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: banzaibird]
      #72234 - 22/02/07 12:33 PM

Ouch!

Killed a Bland?
What a drag, man. Even though it was just a 'parts bin action' it was a Bland none the less.
No tears for the lefever.

Thanks for sharing your story.

I noticed Ron Vella discussing on another thread some barrel regulation lessons he'd learned early on.

Mabye he'll notice this thread and come by for a visit.



--Tinker

--------------------
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"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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Bramble
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: tinker]
      #72236 - 22/02/07 12:53 PM

Well it wasent on a double rifle, but a nitro muzzleloading pistol I built on a SAA frame with a novel cylinder built fron scratch. Like a fool kept stoking it up until I had 1200 fps from 158 grain head over 9.5 grains of unique. I flashed off 3 cylinders simultainously.

Dident hurt the gun much except for blowing the loading gate off.

Couldent wear that pair of trousers again though :-)

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banzaibird
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: Bramble]
      #72239 - 22/02/07 01:06 PM

Tinker,

I still have the Bland. In defense of myself I will state that it was a pretty plain action with some external problems as well. So it wasn't likely to ever be anything else again. Now I use it as a pattern action. I've built 3 actions so far using those measurements or slight variations of them. The nice thing is using the internals to copy and such. All in all it isn't dead just now has a different "life expecetancy" kind of an organ donor if you will .

I read the part on regulating. I had the same kind of experience. The first things I used were modified C-clamps to hold the barrels. Gave me definite issues when that mass was no longer there. Another problem with regulation is if you do your adjustments dry then solder everything up you may have some issues with the solder thickness changing the spacing in between the barrels. Been there done that. Also not properly wiring the top rib in place when trying to lay the bottom rib and having to start regulation all over.

All fun stuff.

How is the 25-25 coming along?

Bill

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: banzaibird]
      #72246 - 22/02/07 03:02 PM

Definitely some hair raising stories. I would have thought a 20 gauge action would take a .30/40 Krag. What did you find weak about the Bland action? Was it the steel, the design, or a combination?

What's this about a "nitro muzzle loader"? That sure sounds dicey!

Thanks for the stories. Maybe more to come?

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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banzaibird
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: CptCurl]
      #72272 - 22/02/07 11:15 PM

Curl,

The Bland action seemed soft. As in it wasn't hardened enough to take the pressure of the rifle cartridge. The 30-40 works fine in a 20 gauge action it just has to be the right 20 gauge action. The Bland was a game gun and was built on the light side. As I said it was probably hardened perfectly for the lower pressure shotshells but didn't quite stand up to the Krag. If I had it properly re-heattreated before I used it "might" have worked fine. However after firing it I no longer felt it was safe to do so. It's funny because the angle of the watertable and breech face was unchanged but the measument from the hinge pin to the breech face was longer. Thus why I used stretch to describe the problem. I thought about simply putting in a larger pin and then heat treating. However I decided since the metal already obviously sustained some type of move that, that wasn't the best of ideas.

Bill

P.S.- I like how you ignored the part about sending me the Woodward . There is an "Automatic" in a 12 gauge for sale locally. However the gent wants $35,000 for it. I really, really like them but even if that was in my reach financially that is too much.

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: banzaibird]
      #72288 - 23/02/07 02:26 AM

Bill,

I didn't ignore the comment about the Woodward. I just couldn't think of anything clever to say.

Have you seen the 12 gauge "Automatic" you referred to? There's a 12 gauge on Cabelas that's been there a while priced at $22k:

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11655

It appears to have seen a little rougher use than mine.

Best,
Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Ron_Vella
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: CptCurl]
      #72294 - 23/02/07 02:55 AM

Tinker,
I have been following this thread but thank God have nothing useful to add. I am on my 4th build, with a 5th partial waiting in the wings. Through a combination of strong host guns, close tolerances, and over-build, I have never had a problem. one has to always be aware that a catastrophic failure could result in crippling injuries or even death. It's always enlightening to share efforts and results with people who have "been there and done that". It's also scary as hell to read some of the suggestions by others who have not.

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banzaibird
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: Ron_Vella]
      #72299 - 23/02/07 04:03 AM

Curl,

That is still way out of my checkbook league.

I did get a chance to look at the one locally. It is in a private collection. It is quite nice but has seen it's fair amount of use. Case colors on the protected areas are quite nice but almost gone one the exposed areas. The blacking is worn pretty well in the typical areas. The wood doesn't show as much figure as the one on the Cabelas site either. What i found/find interesting is the differences between the rifle and shotgun actions. Like do you think the tang area behind the standing breech was extended on the rifles to try to strengthen the union with the stock head? Also seems as though the sideplates are a little closer to the standing breech on the shotgun. All interesting stuff.

Bill

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tinker
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: banzaibird]
      #72311 - 23/02/07 07:45 AM

Ron-

Congratulations on the clean safety and success of your projects.
Your account on the use of barrel-band regulation widgets was good to hear about on the aforementioned thread. I got something out of it, although I'd definitely take the 'classic' route of tin shims and iron wire, adjusting with the torch at the range. I've been at the torch for most of my life and feel perfectly comfortable working in the narrowish margins of solder flow points on sensitive steels.


Bill-

Thanks for asking about the wee little 25-25.
I've been swamped with work this year, the labratory has been constantly expanding, I'm looking at a substantial expansion into a new facility some time before summer's out.
Combine that with the 19mo old girl and the little boy coming in June, I'm lucky to finish filing the sights on my Whitworth before next year!
I've been back and forth on barrel thoughts. I need to settle on a twist rate and have a couple of tubes made.
Really do need to get going on that thing, the kids will be ready to kill jackrabbits sooner than I think...


--Tinker

--------------------
--Self-Appointed Colonel, DRSS--



"It IS a dangerous game, and so named for a reason, and you can't play from the keyboard. " --Some Old Texan...

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: banzaibird]
      #72336 - 23/02/07 01:20 PM

Bill, I would have to assume the extra steel on the rifle action is for strength. It really makes a pretty tough receiver when you study the geometry of the rifle.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Bramble
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: CptCurl]
      #72413 - 24/02/07 01:37 PM

The nitro muzzle loader is just because we are not allowed any revolvers with barrels under 12" and overall length of less than 24" unless they are muzzle loaders.

No regulation about what powder they burn though.

It is just a lot of fun to pull out of a shoulder holster at pratical shoots, gets the range officers wondering till you get back to the line. :-)

It is 38/357 It shoots quite well with 4.5 gn bullseye or 6 grains of unique. I have just got some trail boss to play with.

Just like to shoot something that nobody else has once in a while.

As to dicy. The cylinder is 4140 machined as large as possible for that SAA frame the firing pin recoil shield has been rebushed and the barrel is an bigger than normal diamiter douglas.
If that was a normal cartridge gun I would have no hesitation firing 357 mag bar the possibility of a little frame strech in the long term. The limitatin lies in the ammount of flash back possible from aside the turned off cartidge heads that carry the primers. May have solved that problem on the last mods with a grove recess in the rear of the cylinder and cutting the heads off to leave a little rim thet will impide the flame path to the side.

This is just for informatin by the way folks I AM NOT RECOMMENDING THAT ANYBODY BUILDS ONE OF THESE.

There that is the litigious part over with.

Regards

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: Bramble]
      #72419 - 24/02/07 02:00 PM

Bramble,

It's a damn shame you have to go to such lengths to enjoy shooting a pistol. I truly hope the U.S. doesn't go down that road. If I want to shoot a .357 Mag. I just go to the safe and pull one out. Same for a .44 Mag.

But there are places in the U.S. that don't enjoy the freedoms I have. Virginia is relatively gun-friendly.

Curl

--------------------
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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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hobbyguymaine
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: CptCurl]
      #72543 - 26/02/07 02:33 PM

banzaibird, and other builders following this post, I'm the guy filling up the new "Building ..." forum with those all too long posts about a DR on a Rossi outside hammer 20ga. Thanks for your replies and suggestions, and thanks to another member/poster, Judson here in Maine who spent nearly an hour on the phone with me!

The stretching Bland is what interests me, as with my 40 yrs. experience as a tool & diemaker with many of those years doing machining & weld repairs on old broken and worn equipment components, one gets a gut feeling regarding material strengths and hardness. The Brazilian Rossi shotguns apparently had no national proof system, were imported to the U.S. in quantity beginning in the late '60s, first by Garcia and later Interarms, and import stopped apparently in the late '80s/'90s due to Federal regulations regarding outside hammer safety issues. I've heard of one blowing up either due to the old "20 in a 12ga detonated by a 12" or a blown and lodged base wad, and over the years seen photos of one for sale with a bulged barrel in the chamber/forcing cone area, and last week examined what I'd thought was potentially a bargain "loose" 28" brld 12ga 3" on Rossi’s Squire hammerless action (felt sloppy w/forend removed). After closer inspection I found I couldn't close the action with a small strip of bond paper shim inserted on one side of either the watertable!! or standing breech – it was 9PM and they were closing but I was assured by their shotgun “expert” that he’d shoot it w/heavy 3” loads and the price was firm @ $240-.

Maybe I’m being a bit too paranoid about taking a decent $400- shotgun and cutting the barrels back to a monoblock, then fitting new rifle barrels, only to find after proofing that it won’t adequately handle the pressure. I guess from reading the builder’s posts here, that I wouldn’t be the first and that it’s part of the learning curve for many.

Joe (hobbyguymaine)

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banzaibird
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: hobbyguymaine]
      #72716 - 28/02/07 10:48 AM

Joe,

I didn't comment on the Rossi's because I'm not familiar with them in the least. Thus anything I say would basically be a guess.

My 2 failures were both pretty early on. They were the number 1 and number 4 builds. The big thing is that no matter what you build one you make sure you are firing the gun safely for the "proofing" shots. That means no where near the gun and preferably behind something that can/will stop shrapnel.

If you even have the slightest feeling that something isn't right stop what your doing and get some professional help.

Good luck and keep us informed.

Bill

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: banzaibird]
      #72724 - 28/02/07 11:15 AM

Does anybody give thought to the liability aspects of the practice? If you build one of these conversions and it then explodes, resulting in injuries, how are you going to answer the liability suit?

I'm not a gunsmith. I'm a lawyer. I wouldn't touch one of these conversions if it hasn't been proofed after completion.

I can imagine the summation:

Members of the jury, Mr. Curl took a gun designed for operating pressure not to exceed 11,000 psi and modified it, then loaded into that device a cartridge developing 28,000 psi (black powder equivalent). The gun then exploded, with schrapnel fatally wounding the person at the next station at the shooting range. Do you consider this a safe practice?

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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banzaibird
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: CptCurl]
      #72730 - 28/02/07 12:00 PM

Curl,

That's an intersting thought. One which I sadly never gave much thought too. Perhaps because I was never intending to sell any off my creations. However I have done so. I do have a few questions for you though.

1- Do you think that the proof house would be the ones liable in the event that one of the guns they proofed blew up?

2- In the event of a no answer for above, then what is the real or perceived value of the proof?

3- If you demonstrate or could document what you put the gun through on "proof" would you still gain some of the same "protection"?

4- Would this be any different than anyone who converts any old mauser to one of the newer higher pressure rounds? If there is a difference why? You would still be using the action which was originally used for a round with less pressure.

5- I asked this before and never received an answer do you or anyone who has work done to put a gun back on face have it reproofed? As the law reads when it was off face it was no longer in proof and the repair of such would not put it back into proof?

6- How do you think the bigger companies view this issue? I mean Cabelas, Westley Richards and others have conversion guns on their sites for sale?

I really have none of the answers but wanted your input as a bloodsucker.... er... lawyer .

Bill

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: banzaibird]
      #72736 - 28/02/07 12:21 PM

Bill,

I don't claim to be an expert on these issues, and I know I can't answer each of your questions.

1 - The proof house would be governed by the laws of the juristiction where it exists. We have no proof houses in the US. I feel sure there is some sort of a standard of care, but I wouldn't venture a guess.

2 - I have no doubt that a person making one of these conversions will realize some liability protection by having the rifle proofed and then using the rifle within the constraints of that proof. If I were defending that case I think the proof would be a major factor.

The proof represents a scientific test by acknowledged experts specifically designed to determine the safety of the barrel and action to withstand the intended working pressure. You are better off with it than without it.

3 - If you aren't trained in the methods of proofing a gun my guts tell me you aren't going to shield yourself from liability by shooting it in your back yard with a few overloads.

4 - This question represents a matter of degree. At what point does the activity deviate from reasonable care? There is a distinction between a shotgun to DR conversion and what you are setting forth with rebarreling a Mauser. Also, Mausers are routinely rebarreled to more modern chamberings, so it may be accepted practice. I know that Douglas Barrels does some testing on actions it rebarrels (or used to rebarrel).

5 - The U.S. doesn't have proof laws. This would be an issue of general negligence.

6 - You would have to ask them.

None of this should be taken as legal advice. The laws of each state of the U.S. differ. I am not qualified to give advice on this topic, certainly not outside of Virginia. I would render advice in Virginia only after some serious legal research, which I have not done.

I think my comments do set forth some general principles on the topic, but nobody should rely on what I have said here.

Notwithstanding what I said in #2 above, iIt is certainly possible that somebody who makes a conversion could face civil liability even if the conversion is submitted to proof. I just don't know, and absent research I know of no cases decided on the issue.

Curl

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banzaibird
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: CptCurl]
      #72746 - 28/02/07 01:00 PM

Thanks Curl, as I said it isn't an area that I really have ever given much thought too. Though I obviously should have.

I will say that I don't think a proof would actually stop the lawsuit on the maker and in fact would probably just give the complaintent another person to sue. I'm also not sure that documenting a home proof wouldn't aid your defense. Especially if you were going about it in a manner that was consistant with the "standards" the proof house uses. I say this because of a court case I was involved in years ago. Now it didn't pertain to guns but used the same principals of "informed improvisation" as the lawyers coined as the phrase they used to describe the procedure the defendent used. The defendent in that case won. Now whether that was directly related I can't say but it seemed quite convincing.

I'm not a lawyer but unfortunately in my job I've spent my fair share of time in court. First as far as civil liability you and I both know that you can get sued at any time. That's one of those things that what's right doesn't always prevail. I'll use my last court room expeirence for an example. A teenager thought that in the freezing weather that spraying the sidewalk in front of the neighbors house would be a fun joke to play on the neighbors kid. Well in the process teen 1 (the joker) falls on the ice he created and fractured his pelvis in several places. Then he the jokester sues the neighbor and wins. I mean he fell on ice he created and still he wins.

Overall I believe our legal system is pretty screwed. However you have fantastic thoughts and definately food for thought on this sometimes controversial subject.

I will ask for your thoughts (not opinion so we can stay away from your disclaimer ). How do you think actiona such as Merkels that are all built on the same action from the factory would fall into the equation?

Curl, also please don't take my bloodsucker comment to heart. I regularly hunt with a Lawyer. So please just take it as a goodwilled ribbing.

Bill

P.S.- I do want to point out that I've never been sued. I've always been either a witness for one side or the other or an "expert" in my field.

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Bramble
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: banzaibird]
      #72840 - 01/03/07 12:12 PM

I took the view with my conversion that by submitting it to the London proof house as is required by law if the gun is to be sold. Then I have complied with the letter of the law and shown the same due diligenge as any and all of the manufacturers that sell guns in this country.

I can in my view not be asked or expected to do more than Ruger, winchester, H+H et al

Regards

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CptCurlAdministrator
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: Bramble]
      #73010 - 03/03/07 11:34 PM

Bramble,

That is exactly the position I would take on the matter.

Whether it amounts to the same due diligence is an open question. I would assume that the manufacturers have a certain amount of engineering behind their DR design. Do you have the same?

Just being the devil's advocate here.

Curl

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YOUR DOUBLE RIFLE IS YOUR BEST FRIEND.



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Bramble
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Re: Hey guys, What about failures? [Re: CptCurl]
      #73080 - 04/03/07 01:10 PM

I believe so, in that I have the calcs for the origional design criteria and breach thrust. The conversion develops less thrust than the origional loading. The conversion is proofed to 3500 bar 52,000 psi or thereabouts. The max loading for the cartridge is 28,000 psi or so. Thus we have a test 185% of max loading.
The 4140 that the barrels are made of has a hoop pressure yeild of around 150,000 psi
They don't build bridges with that sort of margin. If it came to litigation I would consider that I had an adaquate defence.
But I live in England, I wouldent fancy the argument in a California court room :-)

Regards

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